Rep Power: 0

First off, I'd just like to ask the moderators to leave this thread (or at least a link) in the General Ramblings forum so that it can get the most possible attention. Pretty Please!!!

Ok, Since I bought my car in June of 2001 I've noticed a slight grinding sometimes when I shift into 2nd gear. The car is stock at this point...nothing done to it. So, for my first oil change I asked someone about it, and they said that it's a common problem and if it got worse to bring it back and they'd take a closer look at it. Well, It very slowly got worse, and finally I found the time to get away from work and bring it in. The dealer told me that I had an engine mount that was bad, and it may be causing a bind on my transmission, causing it to grind. So, they replace the mount and send me on my way. It was a warranty repair even though I had headers and CAI installed. A few days later the problem is back and worse than before. Eventually, it became so bad that it now pops out of 2nd everytime I turn right, sitting at a stop light, and sometimes just accellerating. So, I put up with it until I find time to bring it in, which is a month or two down the road. I bring it to the dealer in the same state it was in for the last warranty repair, and now all of a sudden they're declining my coverage because I have headers and intake. That's pretty much my situation in a nutshell. So I'm looking for testimonials from others that have had the same problem. I've printed out every thread on this site that deals with tranny problems, but I'd like to use this as sort of a petition as more proof that this problem is accross the board and should be covered. So if you've had this problem, please take a minute to post the syptoms, was it under warranty, and the name of the dealership that fixed your problem. While there is no recall on the 01 tranny, I read something about a service bulliten or something. Does anyone have a link or a copy of this? It would really help me out. Even a general description of what it said would be ok. I appreciate any and all help that you're willing to give me.

Thanks,
Todd

Read on only if you want to know the full story. The details of the situation will probably **** you off even more than it pissed me off. The service manager that was "helping me" was really screwing me over all along. I brought my car in on Monday in hopes that they could get to it sooner than my scheduled appointment on Thursday. So, I've been without a car since then. Tuesday, they got around to driving my car and Brian (the service manager) called me and said that there is definitely a problem with my car (tell me something I don't know), and they were going to have to take the transmission apart to find out exactly what was wrong inside so that they could notify the Honda Care Warranty people and get approval. He added that the main reason for calling me was to get my permission for them to open up my tranny. Reason being that if it turns out that the problem wasn't covered, I would have to pay the labor fees. So I asked him....Do you see any reason why they would decline the repair? And he told me "No, I don't see why they would say no." So of course I gave him the go-ahead. Later on that day I get another call from him telling me that I need new 2nd, 3rd, and 5th gear syncros. Oh, what a coincidence! Those are the same gears hundreds of other civic owners are having trouble with! Also, the warranty people requested an inspection of the car because it was modified. So, they were sending out an inspector to take a look. This morning, an inspector went out to look at my car, and right away he declined the warranty repair because I have an aftermarket header and intake!! So what was the reason for dis-assembling my tranny? They knew damn well that the inspector could have made a decision before they had to take my car apart. Brian couldn't give me a very good explaination, so I got on the phone with the people at Honda Care. All they could say was that it was voided due to added stress put on the motor and transmission from the extra power. Give me a break right? You're telling me this tranny can't handle an extra 15 or 20 horses tops? Well, he kept on repeating himself so I hung up with him, started doing research on the internet about my problem, and here I am.

 
Rep Power: 375

nvm, i thought your car was stock....If you can prove the problem cannot be traced to the header and intake then you can try through the warranty again...Im sure more people can help on here, just wait for some more posts

 
Rep Power: 0

There is a TSB for the 2nd gear grind and popping out. Check the Vehicle Issues forum ... there's a sticky at the top.

 
Rep Power: 425

Ok... first things first. Find the law somewhere on this site about aftermarket parts and the warranty. Make them prove the problem (i bet you they can't provide any hard evidence regarding it). Any well designed part is gonna have a factor of safety of at least 3x what it actually has to deal with... in other words... the tranny should hold up to about 300 HP (maybe not for very long, but it should take it)
Then call a lawyer, then get on Honda about it. If you have to... get a car that's stock. Dyno it. Then Dyno your car. I bet you there is no more than 5HP difference. I think it's bullshit. If you don't have a short shifter or something, the synchros shouldn't go bad... cuz there's no power while you're shifting gears! This should be something thats covered, especially if there's a known TSB on it, and you have a service history record of you being in there several times before. If it has happened before, then try to Lemon the car and get out of it completely.

 
Rep Power: 0

Thanks for the advice so far guys. I didn't see the sticky, but I found it after you pointed it out Ronin. I've already called Honda and filed a complaint about the Dealership regarding this problem. My attorney is aware of the situation and standing by to help. I'm having a meeting with two managers at the local dealership in 20 minutes and I have made booklets of printed posts, a list of service bulletin numbers, and other information. We'll see what they have to say now. The only bad thing is that I don't service my car through honda mainly because they take too long. Therefore, I'd have to come up with all the recipts for maintenance performed on my car, which I might have a problem getting together. I never planned for this to happen. However, this has been an ongoing problem and started well before any modifications were made to my car.

 
Rep Power: 311

Here's a link to the PDF: TSB SB626650- 2nd or 5th gear pops out

That sucks man. Maybe put the stock parts back on if you got them and take it to a different Honda dealer..

 
Rep Power: 400

Actually it's the other way around. He doesn't have to prove anything. It's the dealership that must prove the aftermarket parts are the direct cause of the failure.

 
Rep Power: 0

why can 't i ever see those TBS things!!

 
Rep Power: 400

And the law you are looking for is called the "magnusson moss warranty act"

http://www.southlandmicro.com/pdf/Mag_Moss.pdf

You can find info on that, but first take them the TSB for the 2nd gear popping out. And if it gets that far, THEY have to PROVE that the header/exhaust caused your transmission to fail. You can contact your local or state government's attorneys office, or some type of government consumer affairs division for help if they won't fix it.

 
Rep Power: 0

www.sema.org covers all of this


this should help ALOT

Consumers Bill of Rights



Your Rights to Personalize Your Vehicle

ARTICLE ONE: You have the Right to buy high-quality, reliable aftermarket performance and specialty parts, accessories and styling options.

ARTICLE TWO: You have the Right to use high-quality aftermarket parts and know that your new car warranty claims will be honored. In fact, your vehicle dealer may not reject a warranty claim simply because an aftermarket product is present. A warranty denial under such circumstances may be proper only if an aftermarket part caused the failure being claimed.

ARTICLE THREE: You have the Right to install and use emissions-legal aftermarket performance parts without incurring hassles and onerous procedures during state vehicle emissions inspections.

ARTICLE FOUR: You have the Right to actively oppose any proposed (or existing) laws or regulations that will reduce your freedom to use aftermarket automotive parts and service or will curtail your ability to take part in the automotive hobbies of your choice.

ARTICLE FIVE: You have the Right to patronize independent retail stores and shops for vehicle parts and service. The U.S. aftermarket offers the world's finest selection of performance and specialty parts, accessories and styling options. These aftermarket products satisfy the most discriminating customers seeking personalized vehicles for today's lifestyle.

The foregoing message is brought to you by the Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA). If you would like our guidelines on what to do if your new car warranty is denied, call SEMA's Fax-on- Demand service, 909/396-0182, ext. 750 and request document #904 or check the Warranty Denied? section of our web site.


more info for ya . . .



Warranty Denied?



The enclosed materials are intended to help you should you have a vehicle warranty claim denied in circumstances in which an aftermarket product has been used. The information describes the law on vehicle warranties and will provide a sense of what is and is not an improper warranty denial. After reviewing this information, you will be aware of the steps to take to fight unlawful warranty denials.

In many cases it will not be necessary to take all the steps outlined here because disputes are often resolved at an early stage.

What Does the Warranty Actually Say?

Start by re-reading the warranty documents. Become familiar with what the documents actually say, not what you think they should say. If the language is confusing, get help in understanding what it really means. Look for specific items or circumstances that may or may not be covered. Determine if there is a process specified for resolving disputes.

The Law

Federal law sets forth requirements for warranties and contains a number of provisions to prevent vehicle manufacturers, dealers and others from unjustly denying warranty coverage. With regard to aftermarket parts, the spirit of the law is that warranty coverage cannot be denied simply because such parts are present on the vehicle, or have been used (see Attachment A). The warranty coverage can be denied only if the aftermarket part caused the malfunction or damage for which warranty coverage is sought. Disputes in this area usually boil down to arguments over facts and technical opinions, rather than arguments over interpretations of the law.

Check Vehicle History

Sometimes a malfunction in a new vehicle may be identified as a "pattern failure," a failure that is recognized as common to your make and model of vehicle. It may be a manufacturing defect which has become the subject of a government-mandated recall. You should check with another dealer, the vehicle manufacturer or an independent service provider—such as those listed below—to see if there are any Technical Service Bulletins (TSBs), ìfield fixes or other service-related information for your vehicle which would indicate that the problem you are experiencing is a common one. In cases of government-mandated recalls, the dealer is obliged to notify you as a vehicle owner. However, you may check for yourself by calling the vehicle manufacturer's 800 number, the EPA (for emissions systems issues) or the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), for safety-related issues.

EPA: 202/233-9040
NHTSA: 800/424-9393
Chiltons: 610/964-4600
AllData: 916/684-5200
Motor Publications: 800/426-6897
American Automobile Manufacturers Association: 313/872-4311
Japanese Automobile Manufacturers Association: 202/296-8537
Determine the True Cause of the Problem

If possible, attempt to independently verify the accuracy of the claims made by the dealership. The manufacturer of the aftermarket part may be helpful to you in providing a technical assessment of the problem. If there is a reasonable possibility that the aftermarket product caused the problem, it may be best to try to reach a compromise. If, however, it is clear that the aftermarket product is unrelated to the problem, you should attempt to gather as much information as possible to support your claim. Useful evidence might include photos, copies of relevant service information, records of prior repairs performed under warranty, or the objective written opinion of a qualified third party (with relevant experience, accreditation, etc.).

Try to Work it Out With the Dealer

Once prepared with the appropriate support information and a basic understanding of the law, present the facts to the dealers service manager and make an effort to resolve the situation. Keep the discussion objective and professional. Make sure to take notes of any significant claims or explanations made by dealership personnel and try to obtain a written explanation if possible.

If discussions with the service manager do not bring about a resolution, speak with the owner of the dealership. Many problems can be resolved at this level. If there is a known pattern failure which matches your problem, be sure to bring this to the dealer's attention. The dealer is able to obtain reimbursement from the vehicle manufacturer under such circumstances. If there is no pattern failure, but other evidence that exists contradicts the dealers conclusion, be sure the dealer is made aware of it. Also explain that you are aware of your rights under EPA's emissions warranty and the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Again, if there is a reasonable possibility that either the aftermarket product or its installation could be the cause of the problem, your best bet is to suggest a compromise with the dealer. In many cases, presenting an objective technical assessment and a basic understanding of the law will do the trick.

However, if you believe that you are entitled to warranty service, but the dealer disagrees, you can take other steps to seek a resolution to the dispute.

Get it in Writing

If a dealership denies warranty coverage, they should be willing to do so in writing. Have the dealer describe the failure which is causing your problem AND how the dealer believes the aftermarket product installed is responsible for the problem. Keep an accurate log of all contacts and correspondence in addressing the warranty denial.

Contact the Vehicle Manufacturer's Zone Representative

If a car manufacturer backs your warranty, and you have a dispute with the dealer about either service or coverage, contact the local manufacturer's representative. The local or zone representative has the authority to adjust and make decisions about warranty service remedies or repairs to satisfy customers.

Some manufacturers are also willing to repair certain problems in specific models free of charge, even if the manufacturer's warranty does not cover the problem. Ask the zone representative or the service manager if there is such a policy.

The procedure for contacting your zone representative is usually provided in the vehicle owner's manual. This information can also be obtained from a dealer, or by calling the manufacturer's customer service number, as listed in the carmaker's owner's manual. Present your case to the zone representative. Be sure to indicate how the dealer responded to your information, especially if dealership personnel were notably uncooperative, etc. Once again, be sure to get as much information in writing as you can; request that any determinations or actions which are promised by the zone representative be confirmed by a letter or a fax.

Contact the Vehicle Manufacturer Directly

You may find that contact with the zone representative does not achieve resolve of the matter. If you are still not satisfied, the next step is to contact the vehicle manufacturer directly. Most carmakers maintain a contact office or a special department that is responsible for dealing with warranty issues (see Attachment B).

Using the information you have gathered and any additional information you may have to supplement your case, forward a letter directly to the vehicle manufacturer's customer service office (sometimes called dispute resolution board or something similar). Be sure to explain your situation in detail and in a logical, easy-to-understand manner. Provide as much detail as you can about your contacts with the dealer and the zone representative. Do not hesitate to state if you felt you were treated improperly or unfairly by either. The vehicle manufacturer will almost always respond to you with a letter; sometimes promptly, sometimes not. Again, be sure to retain all correspondence in case you need it for future use. Generally, the vehicle manufacturer has the greatest interest in ensuring your satisfaction; they want you to remain loyal to their brand. As such, they will likely make a good-faith effort to resolve the issue particularly if there is a known pattern of similar failures. If there is a request for any additional information, be sure to keep a record of what you send. If the manufacturer should still decide against you, make sure that their refusal letter provides an explanation of how they believe the aftermarket part caused the problem.

Local Approaches You Can Try

If you cannot get satisfaction from the dealer, the zone representative or the manufacturer, contact one or all of the following:

Better Business Bureau
State Attorney General
Local Department of Motor Vehicles
State Consumer Protection Office
Many states also have county and city offices that intervene or mediate on behalf of individual consumers to resolve complaints.

You also might consider using a dispute resolution organization to arbitrate your disagreement if you and the dealer are willing. Under the terms of many warranties, this may be a required first step before you can sue the dealer or manufacturer. Check your warranty to see if this is the case.

If you bought the vehicle from a franchised dealer, you may be able to seek mediation through the Automotive Consumer Action Program (AUTOCAP). AUTOCAP is a dispute resolution program coordinated nationally by the National Automobile Dealers Association (NADA: 800/252-6232), and sponsored through state and local dealer associations in many cities. Check with the dealer association in your area to see if they operate a mediation program.

National Approaches You Can Try

Since the manufacturer's failure to honor the terms of the warranty may be a violation of federal law, you can pursue the issue with the appropriate federal agency.

You can call or write the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and ask for assistance on non-emission-related problems. Input from consumers is very important to the work of the FTC. These contacts with consumers are often the first indication of a problem in the marketplace and may provide initial evidence to begin an investigation. Although the agency cannot act to resolve individual problems, it can act when it sees a pattern of possible law violations. FTC, Washington, D.C.: 202/326-3128.

The FTC also maintains regional offices to field consumer complaints. For the telephone number to one near you, see Attachment B.

In the case of a problem with an emission-related component, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is the organization to contact. A pamphlet published by the EPA on emissions warranty matters called "What You Should Know About Your Auto Emissions Warranty," can help explain your options. In essence, the EPA requires that you exhaust all of your options with the vehicle manufacturer before you contact the Agency. In all cases, you must correspond with the EPA in writing. You must also provide copies of all correspondence with the dealer and manufacturer, as well as any independent evidence you may have that describes the cause of the problem. The better you are able to make your case that an aftermarket part was not the cause of the failure, the more likely you are to get EPA's help. The EPA is particularly interested in any evidence of a pattern failure being involved.

Warranty Complaint Field Operations and Support Division (EN-397F), U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Washington, D.C. 20460. Telephone: 202/233-9040 or 202/233-9100.

You can also call the Bureau of Consumer Protections Office of Consumer & Business Education in Washington, D.C., at 202/326-3650.

Final Steps

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act may also be helpful. Under this federal law, you can sue on breach of express and implied warranties. The main point of interest here is that the Act says warranty coverage may not be conditioned upon the use of only the vehicle manufacturer's parts unless the parts are provided free of charge. In other words, use of a non-carmaker product should not void your warranty unless it caused the problem.

Obviously, litigation can involve considerable time and expense on your part. However, if the cost of the warranty claim is high enough, this may be an option to consider. Any such lawsuit or claim would have to be fought on the unique merits of the case and we recommend that you consider finding qualified legal counsel familiar with this area of law. In some cases, the filing of a lawsuit may encourage a settlement of the dispute. You should also be particularly aware of the fact that once you file a lawsuit or claim against the dealer or manufacturer, your vehicle and your documentation may become material evidence and may be subject to inspection and reviews in the lawsuit.

You can also consider going to small claims court, where you can resolve disputes involving small amounts of money for a low cost. The clerk of your local small claims court can tell you how to file a suit and what the dollar limit is in your state. Again, this action will sometimes lead the parties to settle the dispute.

No matter which steps you undertake, always approach the situation in a professional manner. Fits of anger, shouting, threats and the like seldom accomplish anything other than aggravating the situation. The best strategy is to stay calm and tactfully demonstrate your knowledge of your rights and potential courses of action.

In most cases, it will not be necessary to go through the entire process described here. What you will normally find is that you will be able to resolve your situation at a fairly early stage if you have the proper information in written form and you approach the issue in a calm, professional manner.

 
Rep Power: 360

Yeah. . this all helps me too. I'm getting ready to take mine in to have them look. Mine doesn't pop outta second, but it's kinda difficult to get it into 2nd sometimes. So I'll have them look. . My dealership isn't an @$$ about warranty work though, so it should be ok.

 
Rep Power: 0

Holy ****, thanks for all the help so far. This is the stuff that I'm looking for. Lots of helpful documentation. Just to give you a bit of an update...I went to talk to someone a little higher than the service manager, and he was kind of helpful. He basically told me that once Honda Care (extended warranty) denies warranty repair it's out of the dealership's hands. Now, I don't know how much of that is true....and even if it is I think that they should help me solve this problem a little more than they are right now. I was told to contact Honda Care and straighten things out with them. He also told me that I should just keep asking them to prove to me that the modification caused the malfunction. So, I'm calling them first thing in the morning. Keep up the good work, everything posted so far has been a big help, and I know there's more out there that I didn't come accross yet.

 
Rep Power: 0

like i posted, if they say the mod caused the issue, get it in writing, and how/why it caused it, then go from there

 
Rep Power: 0

All the advice is great and very very helpful, but I still need testimonials too. If you've had this problem, please post a little bit about it.
I'm fixing to call my dealership and ask them to fax me a description of what is wrong with my car, and an explaination as to why they won't fix it under warranty. I know that the dealership can't really do much more until they get the ok from Honda Care, but I'd still like a statement in writing. Then I'm going to call Honda Care and request a fax specifying the modifications that caused the malfunction, and a detailed explaination as to how these parts have put so much stress on my transmission. I want dyno numbers, hp ratings on these mods, and ratings on the transmission.....not a statement saying "The modifications on your vehicle cause added stress on the trans., therefore the warranty is void." I'm going to call in about an hour. If anyone can think of any other questions that I should ask them let me know?

 
Rep Power: 0

regarding them telling you once its denied its out of the dealerships hands, thats true. my girlfriends grandparents own a honda dealership and I had a similar problem as you more or less. I am the second owner of my 2001 Civic Coupe. Bought it with around 32xxx miles on it so still under warranty. I bought it with ZERO modifications, about a month or less after I got it, any time I shifted from second to third, I got a horrible grinding, almost as like youd get if you tried shifting without pushing the clutch in. At that time I think I only had an intake, rims, and exhaust. Brandi (the girlfriend) and I had just moved, so I called to get an appointment a week or so after it started. I went down and they looked at it and said theyd need to take it apart. To make a long story short they took they tranny apart and said there were pieces of it literally broken off and laying inside the tranny. I cant attest for the previous owners care, but I NEVER ragged the car our, raced it, etc.. Brandis uncle who is the head mechanic said they may not fixed it cause it was modified, I just said look its an SRI and axle back, its got nothing to do with it. So Honda came out and looked at it and said theyd fix it, dont know if its cause Im kinda extended family or if I just got lucky but good luck.

I should also point out that the reason stuff like this is happening is because of people getting hondas, racing them, and tearing them up. While I was down there talking to her uncle he was telling me about a kid who had a newer accord, the last body style, and had exhaust, header, intake, etc, he blew the tranny in it, Honda fixed it to be nice, and two weeks later he blew another one, so they told him he was on his own. Cant say I blame Honda, its kinda like damage control, but I dont see why they wont help you. As I said good luck

 
Rep Power: 0

Yeah, I could understand with the accord guy. And I know what you're talking about with the F&F generalizations. Little do they know, I drive a civic because it's affordable for me (being a college student), not because I'm a wanna be street racer.
I've had 3 friends with 2001s and they've had the same problem, brought it to a dealer in Baton Rouge (45miles from me) and they fix it, no problem. For them, this happened between 4000 and 15000 miles, with modifications and without. I've had the 2nd gear grind since about 1000 miles, but I've babied it so it's just getting bad now....at almost 50,000 miles.

 
Rep Power: 0

why not just take it to another dealership? if you have to replace the stock intake and header, shouldnt take but an hour, and it would save you tons of money, my repairs cost over $700. i would definately take it to another dealership though.

 
Rep Power: 0

I wouldn't do that if I were you. Only because the current dealership is saying its out of their hands, its the honda care people you have to deal with. In which case it isn't the specific dealership that is giving you the trouble. Your case is possibly on file now with Honda care with your VIN # and all so if you tried to do that it might make you look bad. Just my .02 cents.

 
Rep Power: 0

thats very true, if you cant get anything else done, it may be a last resort

 
Rep Power: 0

Good luck. My 2nd gear only pops out when I put the clutch in to change gears. 4th grindes every now and then when I shift into it. I do race every now and then, but not enough to break gears. Hows it turning out?

 
Rep Power: 0

but you shouldnt haVE to take your mods off, thats bs, as sema and the gov says, that part has to of caused the issued, they wont be able to prove that dudes header, etd did that to the tranny, and they know it

 
Rep Power: 0

Ok, well I thought about bringing it to another dealership, but there are two problems. One being that my car is sitting in the shop at my dealer with it's transmission in a million pieces. I'm sure that I'll have to pay for the labor in order to get my car back, and I'm not giving them a penny. Second, as dups said, the claim is filed with Honda Care, and if I bring it to another dealer they'll just bring up my record when that dealer files a new claim and see that I've already been denied. So my only choice is to convince Honda Care that they are being ****s about this whole situation. I put together a document that I was supposed to fax to the people at Honda Care this morning, but when I got on the phone to get a fax number I learned that the only way to file a claim is to physically mail it to them in an envelope!!! What the hell? So I'm mailing it today, but it'll be at least 4 days before they get it, and no telling how long until they finally read it. This is what I'm sending to them.... Honda Care.doc

 
Rep Power: 0

another thing to do is contact the manf. of the headers and the CAI, get a statement from them saying that 'our product would not cause...etc' and give it to honda, what are they going to say now?!

 
Rep Power: 0

Good idea. It wouldn't hurt to have that too. I'll have to do that first thing Monday.