Wankenstein

Went to Firestone and told them the sitch. They told me to beat it...Homey don't play that.



So, referred to post #15. Started from full lock left to full lock right and counted rotations: 1.5 from center each way. Steering wheel was about 1/3 of a rotation off of center. Removed boots, measured from rack bar (sticking out on sides) from rack housing. Center is 5.7 cm sticking out on each side...adjusted slightly from above-mentioned centering point. Loosened coupler and slid up, put steering wheel at factory position while rack still centered, replaced coupler and tightened.

Here's tie rod stats:
----------------------
Outer tie rod total threads
Right: 43
Left: 34 (not a typo)

Outer tie rod length:
Right: 20 cm
Left : 20 cm

Inner tie rod length;
Right: 17.5 cm
Left: 17.5 cm

Final number of turns to install/align outer rods:
Right: 15 (was 8)
Left: 20 (was 26)

Will get another alignment if needed soon. I haven't went for a test drive yet..but, I can see alignment is better than before. Feel much better that right side is secured with 15 turns now. I purchased the inner tie rods a couple months apart and they are different manufacturers..that's a mistake I won't make again. I'll keep updating. Thanks for getting me this far.

ezone

Is the steering wheel any closer to straight while driving in a straight line now?

Wankenstein

Still up on jackstands..no test drive yet. The tires look more perpindicular than at any time before.

I used my trusty 20 year old Kirby vacuum in reverse to blow air into tail pipe and sprayed soap water on exhaust joints. Looks like there may be a very small leak at bottom of manifold/donut gaskets/exhaust connection. I shot a video and will post tomorrow. Tried to a rig a smoke test with the Kirby but didn't work so going to try with compressor and smoke can when I get it together.

Intend to check injectors too. I do want to get it tuned but want to try and find source of lean issue first. It just seems like it if it ran okay (or at least didn't stall) before I removed the steering rack and exhaust piece from bottom of manifold to front of cat then the issue be should related to exhaust removal. If that is an exhaust leak I may have found today..it seems very minimal but, does lie before the cat convertor. I put a piece of PVC from that joint to my ear but couldn't hear air escaping.

Wankenstein

Got it off jack-stands after smoke test and drove it home. No time to try on level road as I went straight home and then to work. It feels a bit squirly and the on one short, possibly level road when I let go of the wheel it pulled (not drifted) the right...the steering wheel moved to right along with it in a position I would expect it to for the amount of pull. Taking it in for alignment tomorrow.

Wankenstein

Alignment performed today at Firestone..image attached. No time to check on level road yet ..went from Firestone to work but, seems good. Probably need to adjust tensioner a bit to lessen wheel play. The tech said he had to turn the passsenger side outer tie rod inward (he didn't count turns) so, hopefully the turns on both sides are equal or close to eqaul now.

ezone

WHY no caster readings? Too lazy?
At any rate, caster should still be the same as before, and pull won't be any different. Centering hopefully is correct now though.
If # of threads exposed aren't scary then don't worry about it.

I see rear toe this time.....and left rear toe is pointed out. It's adjustable (if it's not seized up), so......Too lazy, couldn't be bothered?

*eye roll*



Can't change the rear camber without parts or work....

Wankenstein

Most likely. Still waiting for Ezone clone army to take over so this will no longer be the case.

I'll take pics tomorrow of thread counts from medial sides. I'll have time tomorrow to find an empty parking lot and check for pull/drift..centering seems to be good or at least much better now.

I tried to make an appointment to tire plus today but they didn't have any open slots so I made one at Firestone. Every other Friday I work a 12 hour shift at my second job and it's 40 miles from my house. I wanted to get it aligned ASAP. I will call TP and see what they can do about rear toe and caster readings.

That probably applies to 75% of 5th & 6th gen Ciivics on the road..lol

I should probbaly stop dealing with FS and TP....seems like everytime I've purchased new tires for my family's cars I have to bring back at least once for re-balancing. I've got to a point where I tell them roadforce balance everytime now...even when new. I also have a feeling they kinda want imperfect alignment specs so their new tires will wear faster and they will get another sale sooner..lol

ezone

Quite likely. Job security. Low wage/low skill/ this is how they make a paycheck.

Like sh!tty home repair where a coat of paint hides the effed up stuff long enough you don't realize it's a huge problem til it's too late.



Here's a scam from one local tire chain store here:

(This was on a new Fit), 5k miles, a tire chain store tries to sell a bunch of suspension because "it's out of alignment", (I have no idea why it was there in the first place) then someone realizes the car is under warranty so it comes to us......I read their printout and tell the customer he needs to stay away from that store, here's how they got those numbers: They tilt the alignment rack so the entire car leans, and hit print.....and try to sell you a bunch of stuff it doesn't need....and probably will take all your cash and not actually replace anything at all.

I didn't adjust anything and hit print and handed it to the customer. As perfect as it was when it left the factory.



And yet "the dealership is too expensive".

Wankenstein

Hate to hear those kind of stories..probably happens way to often.
Good thing they found out it was still under warranty.

Do you think my tire wear will be significant with the specs I posted? I haven't called TP yet but intend to. Rack and steering wheel seem very centered now and pretty content with it.

ezone

Hard to say. Less than perfect?
Rotate regularly to distribute wear equally

Wankenstein

Okay. Thanks.

Wankenstein

During interstate drive to tuner shop yesterday the car was pulling (not drifting) some to the right so, it's not as kosher as I thought it was. Called tire plus and made an appointment for upcoming Monday morning. I told them I'd like to have the rear camber adjusted, toe specs included and pull sorted out. Will post results.

ezone

Will need adjustable upper arms to make rear camber adjustable....and thats not causing the pull. Pull is in the front

Wankenstein

Okay. Adjustable upper arms might be a project for down the road..Dong needs a break from car related stress..lol. If I do truly have rack and wheel centered yet, it's pulling to the right will that require a camber kit or ?

Wankenstein

Reading up on it: http://www.aa1car.com/library/steerpul.htm

ezone

Remember.....Wheel pointing straight ahead has nothing to do with pull. Centering and pull as independent symptoms are two different animals.

Each angle influences the amount and direction of pull.
The goal would be to get camber equal side to side, and caster equal side to side.

Or nearly equal:
Providing or leaving a slight amount of difference to compensate for road crown (lane tilt) is not unusual, but may or may not be necessary.

Wankenstein

Went for an alignment today and TP said I do have upper control arms with a camber kit but adjustment is maxed out. Also said the prior adjustment is as good as they can get it and no need for adjustment. Manager advised me to take it to a body shop to have it inspected for possibility bent parts, frame, etc..

He said steering rack is centered now however, it will continue to pull right but will not increase tire wear. Told me my front tires are nine years old and rears a seven..recommends replacement.

ezone

Compare this printout to the printout you got from Firetire. Nobody touched anything between those two shops, so why are toe readings so vastly different?

And all are different from the first one posted
Alignment results..given by phone.
Front:
Camber: Left 0.6 Right 1.4 (NOW I realize both of these were actually negative)
Caster: Left 0.3 Right: 0.8
Toe: Left 0.07 Right: 0.04

Rear:
Camber: Left -1.2 Right -2.0


Cambers are all about the same, untouched. Ok.
Casters....odd that the RF is different # from one printout to the next yet appears to be unchanged (RF caster says -.9 on the most recent printout just looks wrong)
Toes are all over the map.

FWIW I prefer reading the printout version you got from Firetire. All of these alignment machines can print whatever version the workerbee wants to print....or the ONE version they learned how to print.

Still nobody can take the SAI/IA readings? FFS it's like one extra step with the initial caster check.


Jeebus. Drive 15 hours and bring $1000 to my shop so I can check this out myself.

I might have attempted to loosen up the front K frame mounting bolts just to see if it will move enough to help with the camber/caster in front (in the middle of the alignment process).......but ya if the car already has adjustable upper arms and they are really maxed out (AND NOT WORN OUT) then a body and frame specialist might be needed if you can't figure out what's bent or moved, IF you want to keep dealing with it.

Wankenstein

I wish I would've had alignment checked before I removed the rack. Prior to removal I didn't notice a pull...just a slight drift.
It's not terrible as is now but would like to get it checked at body shop.

ezone

If you only R&R the rack and didn't touch the control arms and ball joints then the only thing you would have affected is toe.
If you separated at the ball joints and reassemble, camber/caster would be unchanged.
If you dropped the K frame or suspension mounts then anything could have been moved.

BTW it's really hard to tell where it's at as it stands because you have 3 prints that disagree....or are woefully incomplete.



If I see a print that says (front is) this:

Camber: Left -0.6 Right -1.4
Caster: Left +0.3 Right: +0.8

This car would be likely to pull LEFT on flat ground. Let go of the wheel and it would eventually head for oncoming traffic.

If the right caster number were changed to -0.9 (todays printout number), I'd expect the car would pull right. To the ditch.

If -0.9 were true and accurate, I bet you would probably be able to see/feel a noticeable difference in the setback of the front wheels. The one at -0.9 would probably be pushed rearward...Comparing sides, a finger width of difference or more, when palming or fingering between the tire and the wheelwell lip

Wankenstein

Only seperated the outer tie rod from knuckle..hit the knuckle with hammer but didn't fully release so, used a tie rod seperator without tearing boot. Did not seperate ball joint or touch K frame.

The first one is when rack wasn't properly centered. Not sure why there is changes between second and third (after rack centered) as TP (3rd, yesterday) told me that they didn't adjust anything from the 2nd alignment.

I'll check. They may be just giving me lip service so I don't come back or maybe there is truly an issue? Just doesn't seem right that prior to rack removal alignment seemed to be very good and now pulls to right on level surface with hands off wheel. The body shop guy told me $65 per hour to do measurements..he mentioned that a '95 Civic is a unibody type. I'll ask the previous owner if he installed a camber kit ..as the other two Firestoners I brought it to didn't mention it and one actually recommended a camber kit.