Rep Power: 0

This little civic has been losing about 6oz of water mysteriously for about a year. I've broken my brain trying to find out where it's going. No obvious external leaks. I've changed the HG and radiator cap. I had the head resurfaced when I did the HG. No oil/water mixing.

Up until a couple of days ago it still ran fine. I gave it to my wife while I worked on the Camry and it started to run like crap. I pull the plug wires off and #1 doesn't make much difference. Sometimes it makes more difference, sometimes less. Plug wire is going clickety click when I pull the wire.

I'm going to do a compression test on all cylinders. At the same time, I'm thinking about pressurizing the cylinders to see if I get bubbles out the radiator, indicating a cracked head or bad gasket. I have an air compressor. Is there a write up somewhere for pressurizing the cylinders?

Thanks kevin

 
Rep Power: 0

Pulled the plug wires and found the plug holes full of oil which was causing the car to misfire.

I'd just replaced the VC gasket and hole seals so I couldn't think of why the holes would have oil in them. Pulled the VC gasket again and found the I'd doubled up the breather hole hose not allowing the blow by gases escape which caused a pressure buildup under the valve cover causing the plug hole seals to leak oil into the plug holes.

Cleaned everything up and put back together. Still runs rough after it warms up. Put in new plugs and wires and it still runs rough after warming up. Hmmm.

Need to figure out if its fuel or ignition causing the misfire.

Thanks Kevin

 
Rep Power: 518

The offenders are called rocker stand seals. There is an O ring in the middle of each hole where the castings separate. The O ring is hardened and brittle, it has shrunk and lost its ability to seal.
#16 (qty 3) and 17 (qty 1) here:

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...=CYLINDER+HEAD




As for why it runs bad, IDK. Have you adjusted the valves and done a compression check yet? Valve adjustment is critical on all Hondas.

 
Rep Power: 0

Thanks ezone, I replaced them the first time I did the HG. That's why I was surprised they were leaking, but after seeing that I plugged up the VC vent I knew why they were leaking. Excess pressure under the VC.



I now know why it runs bad. I did the test you described in another thread where you pressurize the cylinders with compressed air. #1 cylinder causes a volcano of air to come out the radiator cap.

When I changed the HG I didn't have them pressure test the head. Maybe its cracked?? Good news is I now know why I've been loosing coolant. I'd rather have a problem I know and can attack rather than chasing a mystery. I'll pull the head again again see WTF. Maybe I screwed something up when I changed the HG.

I also checked the compression and it ran between 130/137 with the engine cold. The motor has 214K. I'll drop the oil pan and do the rings and rod bearings while I'm R&R the HG.

I'm retired. I've spent the last 2 months getting both Camrys running so I don't need to worry about transportation.(I hope) I'll take my time, do a little each day.

Thanks Ezone, Kevin

 
Rep Power: 518

These wouldn't get replaced on an ordinary head gasket job....unless the head was torn apart. That's why I said it. Most people wouldn't have replaced them.


I can't say from here....I don't think those had a problem with cracking.
Warped maybe? Head gasket upside down or something? Something should be pretty obvious now that you at least know which cylinder to be looking at.

Did you clean and dry the head bolt holes in the block before you assembled it?



I keep cranking until the gauge is maxed out and won't climb any more.

 
Rep Power: 0

Sorry ezone, I misunderstood you. I thought you were talking about the gaskets that are in the VC over the plug holes. I think this is where oil was getting down in the plug holes??



The head was dunked when the resurfaced it. I put in new bolts and put a tiny bit of oil on the threads. I think this is what I read I should do??

Regardless, as you said, it should be easier to tell now that I know the cylinder.

Thanks Kevin

 
Rep Power: 518

Do you not see the parts picture linked in my post above?

Yes, threads on the head bolts are supposed to be oiled. So are the washers IIRC. Check your shop manual.

But you have to suck the liquids out of the bolt holes in the block before you set the head on. Coolant and oil get in when you lift the head off.

If you don't do clean out the holes, you can
A) crack the block from hydraulic pressure in the bolt holes, or
B) have insufficient clamping force on the head gasket because the head bolts bottomed out against liquid, instead of tightening against metal.

HTH

 
Rep Power: 0

I saw, but I didn't pay attention.

I have a vague memory of cleaning them out by blowing them out with compressed air because I saw they were full of coolant. I may be wrong. I'll have to inspect for both A/B you mentioned above.

As an exercise, I started searching CL for heads and was looking for the 89-91 civics also. Dahum. They want 2K-3K for these little cars. And not even in good running condition with a bunch of miles. Seems they're a popular item for kids to work on, modify, and race.

I enjoy scooting around in mine so I'll repair.

 
Rep Power: 518

Good enough, as long as you are remembering correctly.

 
Rep Power: 0

Pulled it for pictures to post before I start cleaning. The head looks like it's got big ol' knarley pits in it?? They just resurfaced the head less than 500 miles ago and I don't remember that??









It looks like coolant was seeping between the passages. I Dunno

 
Rep Power: 518

Ok. Kinda looks like it didn't seal around the fire ring, but it is hard to tell from the pic. The darkness on the fire ring is the giveaway. The fire ring should be shiny metal. The darkness is carbon from combustion leakage.
Now figure out why it leaked.
Is the head warped? I'd guess .004" for max warp, anything more should be machined flat. Check specs in a book. Have a machine shop check the head if you don't have a precision straightedge.

#1 looks like it has been wet or something. Where is the breach?


Leaks could have been caused by leftover gasket from the previous job?
What method was used to remove the old head gasket the last time?


What are you calling "pits"? The white flaky things in combustion chamber #1 is from water on the aluminum.


Misc. thoughts.

 
Rep Power: 0

I have a precision straightedge. The machine shop resurfaced the head and those pits were not there after they finished. I think I did something dumb. I read somewhere that you could flush the engine with vinegar. I did this. Could it have eaten away at the head in the 15-20 minutes it was in there? I feel like a dufuss, but it won't be the first time.


#1 was where when I pressurized the cylinder, it caused a volcano of air to come out the top of the radiator. It was the cylinder that was leaking enough to cause a misfire.

I cleaned it really good. Slowly with a razor on the end of a handle. No nicks in the block.

I don't think the machine shop can take the pits out of the head. They're deep. I think it's going to need buildup with welding and then machine, or I'm going to have to replace the head. Those pits developed really fast.

 
Rep Power: 518

Vinegar = Acetic acid.
Google: can acetic acid dissolve aluminum?


IMO vinegar is mild. I doubt that 20 minutes would have done that damage (it looks like a decade of weak antifreeze or plain water).
But if that is the only thing you have to go on, then maybe it did.
I'm no chemist, I don't have a good answer.
Ask your machinist?

 
Rep Power: 0

Thanks Ezone,

Went to JY and scored a head for $75. Looks new?? No resurfacing marks on it. Pulled it from the same year(1990) CRX as my civic DX, I hope its the same. I compared them side by side before I bought it. Couldn't tell any difference.



Now I need to do the rings/rod bearings before I install it. I'm assuming I need to drop the oil pan, undo the rods and push the pistons out the top?

I changed the head bolts last time, and snagged the ones that were in this head. I remember these stretch when torqued, but I don't see it on either. Can I reuse?

Thanks kevin

 
Rep Power: 518

Yep.


Torque specs will indicate whether or not they are stretch bolts (TTY). I'm thinking 8th gen was the first to get TTY head bolts.

I reuse all head bolts that are non-TTY, and the service manual gives a few checks to tell if TTY bolts can be reused or tossed out.

 
Rep Power: 0

OK, Need to find gaskets, rings and bearing. Autozone wants $110 for the gasket set. Dahum. More than the friggin' head cost me.
Kevin

 
Rep Power: 0

Got distracted. Went to the JY to score a short block for the 620.

I'm back to the Civic. I've:

1. Measured the bores and pistons to be OK.

2. Bought rings and checked the end gap.

3. Bought rod bearings and plastigage.

4. Honed the first cylinder and was ready to check rod bearing clearance with plastigage when reading through the manual I realized I maybe also need to check/replace the main bearings??

Can I do this without removing the crankshaft? Thanks Kevin

 
Rep Power: 518

If you have the plastigage, you might check all the bearings before you decide to replace them. If they don't look good or have too much clearance, then definitely replace.

I have done mains without pulling the crank, from underneath, without pulling the engine. On OTHER brands of cars.

It's called "rolling the bearings" in or out.

For this you would have to take the oil pump off of the front of the crank.
(I didn't look at any books. I assume this engine has regular individual main caps, not a block stiffener/bearing girdle or saddle?)

Generally, you remove all but 2 of the main caps, then just loosen those far enough to let the crank drop a few thousandths of an inch. Not far enough to cause damage to the rear main seal.
Using a soft tool so you don't scratch the crank surfaces, you push on the bearing shell (opposite of the locktab) so it comes loose from the block and slide it around the curve of the crank. You might need to turn the crank a little to get the bearing to keep moving.
Roll those bearing shells out and in, push them into place, then put those main caps on all but a thread or two to keep the crank from falling too far, then do the last 2 main sets.

If you try to plastigage them, remember all the weight of the crank is on the bottom halves of the mains since the engine isn't flipped upside down. Might screw up your readings, IDK.


EDIT: 95% of the wear on the mains should be on the bottom halves of the sets, not the uppers. You might be able to cheat and only replace the easy halves and get away with it.

 
Rep Power: 0

They looked worn, so I replaced them. Is there any need to do plastigage if I'm pulling STD bearings and putting STD back in?


I think its got a block stiffener?



I'd like to try that, but if I take the stiffener off, I'm wondering what will hold up the crank?

I keep getting distracted. Found a new $50 toy on CL to pull the engine/tranny on my 620. Carolina 3 Ton.



Thanks Kevin

PS: One of the bearings seemed a tad bit big in the cap??. The one I pulled out also seemed a tad bit big?? Am I missing something?

 
Rep Power: 518

I guess it would depend on what you think you could do if it turns out the clearance is too big. If any are too big, then you are pulling the engine and pulling the crank out. Machine shop time.

If you are just swapping std for std, you should be safe......assuming the crank is still in spec.

I think that's a girdle or saddle. I'm guessing at the name as a common term. All main caps are tied together, but contained within the inside of the engine -- I think a block stiffener would have the unit extend all the way to become a lower section of the block (as seen from the outside)....maybe that was a bad description..


(Can you defy the laws of gravity?)

OO00ooo there won't be much to hold it up.
Leave the oil pump on and hope for the best?
The oil pump and the trans will support the majority of its weight?
I'd have to see what is there to work with and decide at that time.


Nice.
I was seriously considering a deal on a fairly new Atlas Hi-Rise motorcycle and ATV lift a friend has. Don't have any extra room in the shop though, and it's way too big to hide under a workbench.
Not sure what you mean. You have to squish each shell piece into its journal. They are made to be a tight fit.
Push them in dry by hand, then oil the friction surfaces before assembly (oil between the back of the shell and whatever it fits in can cause final measured clearance to be wrong).
Is this your first time with bearings?

 
Rep Power: 0

Thanks Ezone

I could pull a piston back out and snake something down and around the crank and hold it up from the top of the block?(I may have to pull the pistons again anyway as you'll see below)


First time. The bearing journals looked blackened. I didn't want to sand them. The bearings don't rotate there. Not sure how they got that way. Maybe a bit of oil seeping in over the years and getting cooked there? Should I have sanded this out? Not a biggy for me to pull them again.

Thanks Kevin

PS I picked up a set of ring compressors at the swap meet, but there seems to be a set of pliers missing that I need to squeeze them down. I tried home depot, harbor freight, Nadda, Zip. Are these a special order item from somewhere?

 
Rep Power: 518

I was serious about the oil pump and the trans holding the crank up.
If you didn't have any bearing noise problems and all the journals are about the same colors, I don't think I would worry about it.

Definitely NO to sanding anything. That will alter the size of the parts.


Maybe you are asking for the wrong things. There are more varieties than plier looking deals.

There are ring compressors and ring expanders. Expander is for installing the ring on the piston, compressor is for squeezing the rings so the piston will fit in its hole.

I would think the DangerZoo loans out all those neat tools.


Here's 4 that all do the same thing:





This is like what the factory sent us for a couple of specific engines:




This is what I had for 2 decades, got it when I was building Air Cooled Bug Engines back in the 80s and kept it until the cheap plastic handle broke in half:



This ugly looking beast is a ring expander:






Rings are often cast iron, they are brittle, and break very easily.
The expander helped me when doing huge pistons.
I don't work with V8 engines much these days.

I install most rings by hand on smaller pistons.

HTH

 
Rep Power: 0

Thanks Ezone.

I've got pic one and two. No pliers for pic one though. That's the pliers I was looking for. I've also got the ring expander thingy, but find it's more trouble than its worth.

I think I'm going to just skip the mains. I had no bearing noise at all. Now that I've gained confidence in the goldmine we have as a JY, if the engine blows(it's got 214K on it), I'll just pull another short block, pay $100 and swap it out. Trick is to find one that somebody else has already rebuilt, but they're there. I don't know why they end up there?

To tighten the rod bearings, I need to use a knuckle to get up in there. Do you know if the torque is transferred directly through the knuckle? My mechanical theory is wack. I want to torque the rod bearings to the correct torque,

Thanks Kevin

 
Rep Power: 518

You mean a U-joint?



Yes, torque is transferred straight through only if the joint is kept straight.

Once you try to use the joint at an angle, there is some leverage that comes into play......Depending on how the joint is positioned, the leverage could be mechanical advantage or mechanical disadvantage.
I can't explain much more than that without a demonstration of why.




But if you are using a type that is more like these:



These 2 types can be run at a significant angle without significant mechanical advantage, so your torque should be much closer to true than it would/could be when using the U-Joint types.



Either way, I'd suggest you snug things up by hand, then rotate the crank to such a position that you can use a straight extension as much as possible. Then there should be no question about the torque.

 
Rep Power: 0

Ezone I think the problem the first time I did HG was that I did not thoroughly blow out the holes. This time I had to stick a long nozzle down there to get all the water out. I don't remember doing that the first time.

I've got it all back together and running. 2 minor glitches. Didn't replace the doughnut gasket between the exhaust manifold and the muffler so it leaked and I got the timing off by a tooth. Both fixed.

I'm breaking it in per the book and the only abnormality is the idle is going up and down regularly periodically (hunting) I'm not sure what's causing this. In the cobwebs of my memory I remember something about a vacuum leak causing this?? Is this correct, or is it something else?

Thanks Kevin

 
Rep Power: 518

The surge (the usual surge I expect everyone talks about) originates from a base idle higher than what the computer expects it to be (for a given temperature), computer activates "decel fuel shutoff" from 2000 to 1200 repeatedly.
TPS indicates throttle is closed.
Something causes the idle speed to raise to 2000, fuel is shut off until the RPM reaches 1200, then fuel is turned back on. Endless cycle.

I'm assuming this wasn't a problem prior to the recent work and nothing was damaged or broken...

The high idle speed can be caused by many things.
Vacuum leak is a strong possibility.

Air pockets in the cooling system that cause the FICV (fast idle control valve, must be heated by the antifreeze in order to slow down the fast idle) to stay open too long, or a bad/stuck FICV, or anything that causes a restriction of the coolant flow to the FICV unit so it is slow to heat up.
I have seen plenty of clogs that block the coolant flow through the tiny hoses.
Rust inside the nipple that sticks out of the cylinder head..... Stop leak goo.....

If the FICV is screaming HOT at full operating temperature and the engine is still surging repeatedly, I'd probably be inspecting for vacuum leaks.

Got any codes?
Everything plugged in correct?

You should be able to block off the ports for the FICV and the IACV just in the opening of the throttle body. Plug off each one with your fingers and see that the passage leading to the FICV makes no difference in idle speed. (I did not research this answer, only pretty sure its correct for the engine you have....been a long time since I saw anything that old.)

 
Rep Power: 0

Nope. On a whim, I unhooked battery ground to reset the computer while I researched where the FICA was(couldn't find it for sure). When I connected the battery back up and let it come up to temperature and idle for a couple of cycles of the fan coming on, (15-20 minutes) it's healed itself.

Maybe the timing being off by one tooth caused the computer to be wack. I dunno. I'll monitor it and see. Thanks Kevin

 
Rep Power: 518

I was guessing since I can't see what engine setup you actually have. Multiple choices you know....
Further searching tells me your engine may have electric instead. #11


??


Anyway...Found this
Civic Idle Fluctuation
If you’re working on a 1988-91 Civic with idle
fluctuation (particularly a dual-point injection model),
check the throttle cable free play. The EACV has
trouble controlling the idle properly if the cable is
adjusted too tight.

There is a TSB 91-031 for occasional rough idle, make a new ground for the TPS


Look into these if the relearn doesn't take care of it.

 
Rep Power: 0

Thanks Ezone, I premature in thinking the resetting the computer fixed the problem. Driving it caused it to fail again. Maybe it needs to be driven to produce the failure. Just letting it cycle through warmup idling doesn't produce the problem.

I took a picture before you posted so I'll post it anyway. I saw #11, and thought it was a fuel solenoid of some sort.



When I hooked the throttle cable back up, I mistakenly wrapped it around the other cable and it was too tight/binding.

Initially, on start up, after the work I did, the car was doing this hunting/surge worse. I found the timing off by a tooth and fixed the cable.

The cable's loose now. Maybe too loose. I'll look into the new ground for the TPS.

Thanks Kevin

 
Rep Power: 518

Cable too tight causes the throttle to be kept slightly open. That's bad.
There MUST be SOME slack in the cable.
The only way it can be "too loose" is if it can't attain WOT.

HTH