98 Civic CX Misfiring at idle? (Video of symptoms included)
11-19-2017
#1
Registered!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2017
Age: 44
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 
98 Civic CX Misfiring at idle? (Video of symptoms included)
Hello from Santa Cruz, California. Hoping somebody can give me some advice, as I'm running out of ideas. I could take the car in to a mechanic but I do like fixing things myself, however I don't have any specialized tools or knowledge! I'm also really wanting to find the problem myself as the car is probably only worth $2,000 - $2,500 at best.
I posted on Clubcivic a few weeks ago and was getting great help, but their forum has been down for about a week and I need to figure this out! So I do apologize, but this is a long post attempting to pick up where I left off with that forum (mostly from memory).
I've had a reoccurring issue for the last 2 years or so where my Civic will misfire, mostly at idle (at least I think it's misfiring). I replaced the spark plug wires 1.5 yrs ago and that seems to have solved the problem for about 6 months and then it pulled the primary O2 sensor code so I replaced it and that seemed to solve the problem for another 10ish months. Well the problem is now back with a vengeance!
3 Weeks AgoI posted on Clubcivic a few weeks ago and was getting great help, but their forum has been down for about a week and I need to figure this out! So I do apologize, but this is a long post attempting to pick up where I left off with that forum (mostly from memory).
I've had a reoccurring issue for the last 2 years or so where my Civic will misfire, mostly at idle (at least I think it's misfiring). I replaced the spark plug wires 1.5 yrs ago and that seems to have solved the problem for about 6 months and then it pulled the primary O2 sensor code so I replaced it and that seemed to solve the problem for another 10ish months. Well the problem is now back with a vengeance!
Starting about 3 weeks ago the car would start up fine for the first 30 seconds and then the misfires would slowly creep in over the next 10-30 seconds. Acceleration hesitates for a second and then all the cylinders seem to kick in. The worst symptoms are felt at idle. For those two weeks cylinders 1 & 2 were the only culprits (only those 2 CEL codes).
I have been driving the car very little, and at low speeds and short trips only.So I swapped the spark plugs and the problem was still contained to cylinders 1 &2. I also replaced the distributor cap because the carbon piece in the middle of my old one was extremely worn down, but it didn't help at all.2 Weeks Ago
I drove it a bit more, again short trips, but I now have misfire codes for all four cylinders and the misfires now start immediately rather than before where there was a 30 second delay on startup. The engine will now stall out at low parking lot speeds, only at times when it is going from 0 to 5 miles an hour or 5 miles an hour to 0 miles an hour.
I used an inline spark tester and I'm getting a strong consistent spark on all cylinders.
I just checked the oil and it was low on oil. I do not believe it is leaking out of the car I think the car is burning oil. It had been many months since I checked the oil level. I added one quart today and that brought the reading to the middle of the low and full marks.
I used an inline spark tester and I'm getting a strong consistent spark on all cylinders.
I just checked the oil and it was low on oil. I do not believe it is leaking out of the car I think the car is burning oil. It had been many months since I checked the oil level. I added one quart today and that brought the reading to the middle of the low and full marks.
I did a dry compression test today also. I ran out of time before I could perform a wet test. I forgot to push the accelerator down the first tests that I did. I will perform a wet test tomorrow and post the results.
#1 161 dry test no throttle
#2 163 dry test no throttle
#3 145 dry test no throttle
#4 170 dry test no throttle
#2 163 dry test no throttle
#3 145 dry test no throttle
#4 170 dry test no throttle
#1 155 dry test full throttle (gas pedal to floor)
#2 164 dry test full throttle
#3 100 & 110 dry test full throttle (tested 2x)
#4 179 dry test full throttle
Replaced the spark plugs and distributor rotor. The car starts to misfire after 90 seconds but sounds good until then, misfires were much less frequent and much less shaking overall (perhaps because the oil is still in the cylinders? or maybe the new distributor rotor or added engine oil is helping?). No check engine lights have come on yet. The engine bogs down most severely after I accelerate and then let off the accelerator takes a few seconds for the engine to bounce back up to a seemingly normal idle.
I decided to retest compression the next day and here's what I got. I did the dry test first (all 4 cylinders), then I added oil to the first cylinder. Then on a whim I thought I'd better retest #3 because of it's difference from yesterday. After retesting cyl #3 I then proceeded to test all four cylinders wet. I think I added a bit too much oil each time (2-3 tablespoons each cyl) because my exhaust smoked for a few minutes after I started the engine post-wet test.
#1 160 full throttle dry
#2 153 full throttle dry
#3 150 full throttle dry (second dry test was 165 after oil added in cylinder 1)
#4 164 full throttle dry
#1 260 full throttle wet
#2 210 full throttle wet
#3 212 full throttle wet
#4 250 full throttle wet
I've driven the car a few more times, all small trips, under 30pmh. No CEL codes have come on but the misfires still happen after about 30 seconds on startup. They are more frequent and severe the longer it idles or the longer I drive. It's not stalling out anymore, and it only hesitates on acceleration sometimes. I feel like it's a matter of time before it starts to stall out and pull CEL codes though.
I've looked at the timing, though as with all of this, I'm learning as I'm going. The timing looks to be off by about 2" (the 3 marks on the spinning pulley are about 2" from the "gunsights," at the time of the cyl#1 flash) However, when I rotate the distributor to bring the 3 marks closer to the "gunsights," the engine actually performs worse, bogs down and stalls...
The car has 160,000 miles on it and I generally drive it very very gently. It gets between 30 and 35 miles per gallon. The misfires have persisted regardless of how much gas is in the tank. As far as I know everything on the vehicle is stock. And the only other issue that the car has is randomly flickering headlights and instrument panel.
Last edited by nohandbrake; 11-19-2017 at 05:42 PM. Reason: formatting
11-19-2017
#2
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: 98 Civic CX Misfiring at idle? (Video of symptoms included)
the car would start up fine for the first 30 seconds and then the misfires would slowly creep in over the next 10-30 seconds. Acceleration hesitates for a second and then all the cylinders seem to kick in. The worst symptoms are felt at idle. For those two weeks cylinders 1 & 2 were the only culprits (only those 2 CEL codes).
Needs checked and adjusted anyway, even if it's not the cause of all the issues. Periodic maintenance!
Terminals (female terminals) inside the injector connectors may have lost tension (grip), only make intermittent contact with the male blades?
You dump oil into cylinders, it WILL smoke after startup until that oil is burned out. Totally expected.
I've looked at the timing,
but I now have misfire codes for all four cylinders and the misfires now start immediately rather than before where there was a 30 second delay on startup. The engine will now stall out at low parking lot speeds, only at times when it is going from 0 to 5 miles an hour or 5 miles an hour to 0 miles an hour.
Also have seen primary O2 sensor cause random lean out without setting fault codes.
11-20-2017
#3
Registered!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2017
Age: 44
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: 98 Civic CX Misfiring at idle? (Video of symptoms included)
Cold misses....Valve adjustment!
Needs checked and adjusted anyway, even if it's not the cause of all the issues. Periodic maintenance!
Terminals (female terminals) inside the injector connectors may have lost tension (grip), only make intermittent contact with the male blades?
You dump oil into cylinders, it WILL smoke after startup until that oil is burned out. Totally expected.
You need a real service manual. You have to install a jumper in the SCS connector to stabilize timing before checking it.
Does the engine have an EGR valve? Could be stuck or sticking open.
Also have seen primary O2 sensor cause random lean out without setting fault codes.
Needs checked and adjusted anyway, even if it's not the cause of all the issues. Periodic maintenance!
Terminals (female terminals) inside the injector connectors may have lost tension (grip), only make intermittent contact with the male blades?
You dump oil into cylinders, it WILL smoke after startup until that oil is burned out. Totally expected.
You need a real service manual. You have to install a jumper in the SCS connector to stabilize timing before checking it.
Does the engine have an EGR valve? Could be stuck or sticking open.
Also have seen primary O2 sensor cause random lean out without setting fault codes.
Yep, I'm realizing the value of periodic maintenance very quickly here. I will do a valve adjustment within the next few days, and will update the thread no matter what happens. Also, as of this morning I am pulling CEL codes for cylinder 1-4 misfire (engine still behaving the same).
I'm not sure what this means, I haven't come across this injector suggestion yet. Do you mean the electrical connections? Is there a way to test for this injector problem?
Yes, I did use a jumper when I was warming the car up and during the time I was trying to adjust the timing by rotating the distributor. The one x-factor for me is that I'm not sure I got the car warm enough. Idled for a few minutes and then I kept it at maybe 2-3K rpms (I don't have a tach) for a minute too, but the radiator fan did not turn on. I tried to take a video of the timing marks/flashes, but my camera aim was off. I'll try again soon as it doesn't look right at all to me and I'd like a 2nd opinion.
No, I don't believe this engine has an EGR valve.
Ok, I'm not sure what lean out means, but I'll put this on my list to check after the valve adjustment.
Thanks again for your help!
Last edited by nohandbrake; 11-20-2017 at 06:16 PM. Reason: formatting
11-20-2017
#4
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: 98 Civic CX Misfiring at idle? (Video of symptoms included)
I'm not sure what this means, I haven't come across this injector suggestion yet. Do you mean the electrical connections? Is there a way to test for this injector problem?
The male is usually a pretty simple flat blade of metal.
The female is the complicated one that does all the work
See pic:
Google pin drag test, or terminal tension test.
Scroll down to "tension issues" : https://www.gearsmagazine.com/magazine/piercing-probing-tension/
Also
http://www.jumperkits.com/blog/tag/Drag%20Test
The female electrical terminal must have good grip and spring tension in order to maintain a positive electrical contact with its mating male terminal. If it doesn't fit snugly on the male terminal that causes poor and intermittent contact, or none at all.
The tension or drag test is simply where you check the tension of the female terminals by inserting a new male terminal (or suitable equivalent) and see if it fits snug or loose.
ALso look for obvious corrosion:
11-27-2017
#5
Registered!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2017
Age: 44
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: 98 Civic CX Misfiring at idle? (Video of symptoms included)
Hey ezone,
Thanks for that very detailed explanation of the terminal tension test. I have yet to test it, but I may have found the root of this issue.
Over Thanksgiving break I did do a valve adjustment per your recommendation.The valves were all tight, and upon doing the adjustment the car does run better, the misses happen after about 2 minutes now instead of 30 seconds, but they do still happen with about the same frequency (maybe a little less?) as the vids I posted earlier. The misses seem a little lighter too, and they don't seem to be strong enough to pull CEL codes. Acceleration seems smoother, and the car isn't stalling or dipping below normal idle after I let of the accelerator. But the root of the problem remains...Someone on another forum suggested I look at the idle speed (it is correctly set at 700rpms) and the timing. Can you tell by these three photos if the mechanical timing is off? These were all taken with the engine cold.
All the marks on my crankshaft pulley are white b/c I had to fill them with chalk to see them at all.
It looks like from my manual the two TDC marks on the camshaft pulley are supposed to line up with the cylinder head at the same time that the rightmost (of the four) mark on the crankshaft pulley is lined up with the gunsights? The first two photos are showing that my setup isn't quite there (my camera angle isn't perfect but pretty close to straight on).
The third photo is a picture of the camshaft pulley when the rightmost (of the four) mark on the crankshaft pulley IS lined up perfectly with the gunsights.
Let me know what you think, I super grateful for you sticking with me!
Thanks for that very detailed explanation of the terminal tension test. I have yet to test it, but I may have found the root of this issue.
Over Thanksgiving break I did do a valve adjustment per your recommendation.The valves were all tight, and upon doing the adjustment the car does run better, the misses happen after about 2 minutes now instead of 30 seconds, but they do still happen with about the same frequency (maybe a little less?) as the vids I posted earlier. The misses seem a little lighter too, and they don't seem to be strong enough to pull CEL codes. Acceleration seems smoother, and the car isn't stalling or dipping below normal idle after I let of the accelerator. But the root of the problem remains...Someone on another forum suggested I look at the idle speed (it is correctly set at 700rpms) and the timing. Can you tell by these three photos if the mechanical timing is off? These were all taken with the engine cold.
All the marks on my crankshaft pulley are white b/c I had to fill them with chalk to see them at all.
It looks like from my manual the two TDC marks on the camshaft pulley are supposed to line up with the cylinder head at the same time that the rightmost (of the four) mark on the crankshaft pulley is lined up with the gunsights? The first two photos are showing that my setup isn't quite there (my camera angle isn't perfect but pretty close to straight on).
The third photo is a picture of the camshaft pulley when the rightmost (of the four) mark on the crankshaft pulley IS lined up perfectly with the gunsights.
Let me know what you think, I super grateful for you sticking with me!
11-27-2017
#6
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: 98 Civic CX Misfiring at idle? (Video of symptoms included)
The third photo is a picture of the camshaft pulley when the rightmost (of the four) mark on the crankshaft pulley IS lined up perfectly with the gunsights.
If that's the bottom pic, you're out of time by one or two teeth.......BUT WHY ???
Is the belt super floppy loose and jumped over the teeth....or did someone install it wrong at some point?
Last edited by ezone; 11-27-2017 at 08:56 PM. Reason: I still can't read!
11-27-2017
#7
Registered!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2017
Age: 44
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: 98 Civic CX Misfiring at idle? (Video of symptoms included)
Hey ezone,
Yep, the third photo was taken while the crankshaft was perfectly at TDC as you describe (the single notch lined up in the gunsights).
Yep, the third photo was taken while the crankshaft was perfectly at TDC as you describe (the single notch lined up in the gunsights).
11-27-2017
#8
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: 98 Civic CX Misfiring at idle? (Video of symptoms included)
Post above was edited-- because I can't read.
WHY is it out of time?
WHY is it out of time?
11-27-2017
#9
OF top 99.5% creator (Formerly of the Puffinblunts variety)
Re: 98 Civic CX Misfiring at idle? (Video of symptoms included)
Update:
I must have been writing as you were editing..lol
I must have been writing as you were editing..lol
Last edited by Wankenstein; 11-28-2017 at 05:14 AM.
11-27-2017
#10
Registered!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2017
Age: 44
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: 98 Civic CX Misfiring at idle? (Video of symptoms included)
Hmm, I don't know why it is out of time (I don't even know the common causes of this). I will check the tension tomorrow. I do know that the misfires at idle have happened as long back as 1.5 yrs ago, but they've gone away intermittently as described in my first post (after I changed spark plug wires and later the primary oxygen sensor). I do not know if those old misfires are related to these or not. About four weeks ago they came back more severely than ever, and I do not know why.
The engine was well below the low mark when I checked it a few weeks ago, and I do not know for how long it was low. The coolant was also low, but I don't know for how long or how low (there were only a few drops in the overflow reservoir). Both the oil and coolant are filled again.
What I do know is that I don't want to spend $650 for a timing belt replacement (I'm not sure I can do it myself) only to find that there's another expensive problem even deeper!
I did buy a OBDII bluetooth adapter for my phone the other day and here is the data that I recorded. To my novice eyes it looks like perhaps the fuel trim is showing a problem (or is this just a symptom of/compensation for the misfires)?
So that's where I'm at. Collecting advice before either doing the timing belt (and water pump and tensioner) or looking somewhere else for the root cause. Thanks for taking the time to help me out!
The engine was well below the low mark when I checked it a few weeks ago, and I do not know for how long it was low. The coolant was also low, but I don't know for how long or how low (there were only a few drops in the overflow reservoir). Both the oil and coolant are filled again.
What I do know is that I don't want to spend $650 for a timing belt replacement (I'm not sure I can do it myself) only to find that there's another expensive problem even deeper!
I did buy a OBDII bluetooth adapter for my phone the other day and here is the data that I recorded. To my novice eyes it looks like perhaps the fuel trim is showing a problem (or is this just a symptom of/compensation for the misfires)?
Idle speed averages around 700rpm
The radiator fan turns on at 205 deg F
The engine load value is around 27 to 29 (i don't know what this means of if it's even important to us)
intake manifold absolute pressure is at .3
AT IDLE with SCS jumper IN, after about 5 minutes
Timing advance is 12
short term fuel trim -7.8 to -9.4
long term fuel trim -.8
Bank 1 Sensor 1% -8.5 to -10.1
Bank 1 Sensor 1V bounces from .08 to .8ish
Bank 1 Sensor 2% -8.5 to -10.1
Bank 1 Sensor 2V .96 to .94 (no dramatic bouncing)
AT 2500RPMS with SCS jumper IN, after about 5 minutes
STFT -18.8 to -26LTFT -.8
Bank 1 Sensor 1% -20 to -25
Bank 1 Sensor 1V bounces from .08 to .8ish
Bank 1 Sensor 2% -21 to -28.9
Bank 1 Sensor 2V .66 to .7 (no dramatic bouncing)
AT IDLE with SCS jumper OUT, after about 5 minutes
STFT -8.6 to -10.9LTFT -2.3
Bank 1 Sensor 1% -9.3 to -10.1
Bank 1 Sensor 1V bounces from .08 to .8ish
Bank 1 Sensor 2% -8.5 to -10.1
Bank 1 Sensor 2V .8 (no dramatic bouncing)
AT 2500RPMS with SCS jumper OUT, after about 5 minutes
STFT -18.8 to -25LTFT -2.3
Bank 1 Sensor 1% -21 to -24
Bank 1 Sensor 1V bounces from .08 to .8ish
Bank 1 Sensor 2% -17 to -25
Bank 1 Sensor 2V .6 (no dramatic bouncing)
The radiator fan turns on at 205 deg F
The engine load value is around 27 to 29 (i don't know what this means of if it's even important to us)
intake manifold absolute pressure is at .3
AT IDLE with SCS jumper IN, after about 5 minutes
Timing advance is 12
short term fuel trim -7.8 to -9.4
long term fuel trim -.8
Bank 1 Sensor 1% -8.5 to -10.1
Bank 1 Sensor 1V bounces from .08 to .8ish
Bank 1 Sensor 2% -8.5 to -10.1
Bank 1 Sensor 2V .96 to .94 (no dramatic bouncing)
AT 2500RPMS with SCS jumper IN, after about 5 minutes
STFT -18.8 to -26LTFT -.8
Bank 1 Sensor 1% -20 to -25
Bank 1 Sensor 1V bounces from .08 to .8ish
Bank 1 Sensor 2% -21 to -28.9
Bank 1 Sensor 2V .66 to .7 (no dramatic bouncing)
AT IDLE with SCS jumper OUT, after about 5 minutes
STFT -8.6 to -10.9LTFT -2.3
Bank 1 Sensor 1% -9.3 to -10.1
Bank 1 Sensor 1V bounces from .08 to .8ish
Bank 1 Sensor 2% -8.5 to -10.1
Bank 1 Sensor 2V .8 (no dramatic bouncing)
AT 2500RPMS with SCS jumper OUT, after about 5 minutes
STFT -18.8 to -25LTFT -2.3
Bank 1 Sensor 1% -21 to -24
Bank 1 Sensor 1V bounces from .08 to .8ish
Bank 1 Sensor 2% -17 to -25
Bank 1 Sensor 2V .6 (no dramatic bouncing)
So that's where I'm at. Collecting advice before either doing the timing belt (and water pump and tensioner) or looking somewhere else for the root cause. Thanks for taking the time to help me out!
Last edited by nohandbrake; 11-27-2017 at 09:46 PM. Reason: formatting
11-27-2017
#11
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: 98 Civic CX Misfiring at idle? (Video of symptoms included)
Leaving the SCS jumper in is only for setting up distributor/ignition timing. Don't use the datalist with the jumper in.
Correct the timing belt problems FIRST
Then you can see how much improvement that makes in its running.
Fuel trims are out of whack mostly because the cam timing is very wrong.
If you really want to know why that is, read below. If not, ignore this.
This cam timing error causes compression to drop,
and causes manifold vacuum to decrease,
MAP sensor reads this manifold vacuum,
the computer decides this is "more load" and subsequently adds a boatload of fuel to the injection duration calculations,
then the O2 sensor feedback attempts to subtract all the fuel that was added due to the MAP input.
Correct the timing belt problems FIRST
Then you can see how much improvement that makes in its running.
Fuel trims are out of whack mostly because the cam timing is very wrong.
If you really want to know why that is, read below. If not, ignore this.
This cam timing error causes compression to drop,
and causes manifold vacuum to decrease,
MAP sensor reads this manifold vacuum,
the computer decides this is "more load" and subsequently adds a boatload of fuel to the injection duration calculations,
then the O2 sensor feedback attempts to subtract all the fuel that was added due to the MAP input.
11-27-2017
#12
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: 98 Civic CX Misfiring at idle? (Video of symptoms included)
More questions:
Did you recheck compression after you did the valve adjustment? Did the low numbers come up to match the others?
Which cylinders are still setting misfire codes?
You can correct the timing belt/cam timing without replacing pump/tensioner just to see how many problems that will take care of .....still is a bit of work to do though.
Did you recheck compression after you did the valve adjustment? Did the low numbers come up to match the others?
Which cylinders are still setting misfire codes?
You can correct the timing belt/cam timing without replacing pump/tensioner just to see how many problems that will take care of .....still is a bit of work to do though.
12-06-2017
#13
Registered!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2017
Age: 44
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: 98 Civic CX Misfiring at idle? (Video of symptoms included)
Hey ezone,
Well I just took it into a very highly rated shop here in town to have the timing belt replaced. He agreed that the mechanical timing was off by one tooth. When he looked at the belt and the tension he said both looked great and said that most likely the belt was installed off one tooth (years ago!). He did not recommend replacing the belt, tensioner, water pump, etc.
So he recommended just correcting the timing and also replacing the spark plug wires b/c they were corroded. So that's what we did.
The car drives so well I can barely believe it. The idle issues are gone completely, no misfires, no stuttering acceleration, and of course no CELs. What's more though, I had an acceleration issue (accelerator pedal would "catch" for the first 5 degrees that I pressed the pedal, then "release" and accelerate suddenly) that I thought was a sticky throttle body that I never mentioned here or got around to fixing. It was very annoying. But as it turns out I think it was related to the timing because the acceleration is buttery smooth now, every single time. The plug wires have also fixed a flickering headlight/instrument panel issue I've also had for several years and just put up with. So all in all I'm pretty stoked.
I want to say a huge thanks to you ezone for helping me work the problem as far as I could. I learned a ton about this engine and have much respect for you guys giving your time to help us out. For a week there I thought about doing the timing belt replacement myself, but in the end that crank bolt talked me out of it!
Well I just took it into a very highly rated shop here in town to have the timing belt replaced. He agreed that the mechanical timing was off by one tooth. When he looked at the belt and the tension he said both looked great and said that most likely the belt was installed off one tooth (years ago!). He did not recommend replacing the belt, tensioner, water pump, etc.
So he recommended just correcting the timing and also replacing the spark plug wires b/c they were corroded. So that's what we did.
The car drives so well I can barely believe it. The idle issues are gone completely, no misfires, no stuttering acceleration, and of course no CELs. What's more though, I had an acceleration issue (accelerator pedal would "catch" for the first 5 degrees that I pressed the pedal, then "release" and accelerate suddenly) that I thought was a sticky throttle body that I never mentioned here or got around to fixing. It was very annoying. But as it turns out I think it was related to the timing because the acceleration is buttery smooth now, every single time. The plug wires have also fixed a flickering headlight/instrument panel issue I've also had for several years and just put up with. So all in all I'm pretty stoked.
I want to say a huge thanks to you ezone for helping me work the problem as far as I could. I learned a ton about this engine and have much respect for you guys giving your time to help us out. For a week there I thought about doing the timing belt replacement myself, but in the end that crank bolt talked me out of it!
