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Hi all,
Let me start by saying I am not the owner of the 2000 Civic (A/T), just the guy/neighbor working on it.
The car has always had a rattling noise, most likely the catalytic converters as the shop pointed out. In the past couple weeks, the noise has gotten so loud, I can hear it in the basement of my house. To help them out a little, I checked under the hood for the usual loose belts, parts, etc. and found nothing of the sort.
While cranking, there was a steady metallic "clank" with every rotation that developed into a very loud and rapid clank once the engine fired. It also increased loudness and frequency with engine rpm. listening to the car while running (the car, not me), it sounded like lower end problems at the engine on the driver's side, as if a main bearing was giving up or something was hitting the oil pan.
The owner said the noise got really loud before it shut off while they were coming to a stop, luckily, and it shut off instantly.
They towed it to a shop who diagnosed it as timing belt failure. It made sense to me, and I was hoping the water pump had seized and broke the belt which would explain the noises also.
I removed the valve cover and upper timing cover to see a timing belt in tact and taught to my surprise. The rocker assembly appears good as can be expected. With the timing belt still connected, I attempted to rotate the cam assuming there would be enough slack in the belt to get some movement but there was nothing. Now I assume if the cam froze, the belt would break as the crank continues to turn. So I assume there just isn't enough slack in the belt to get any rotation.
I reach down on the water pump side and give the belt a nudge, trying to see if the pump's pulley would rotate at all, and it did.
I am very capable of doing the work but never messed with Hondas before, which is why I'm posting. Given my description of the problems, would it be worth continuing down to the lower timing cover for further inspection? I feel the belt is in tact, otherwise it would be loose/missing at the cam area.
I have not rotated the crank to check if the engine is seized yet since an actual "mechanic" diagnosed the timing belt as the cause and I did not want to cause any further possible damage from pistons colliding with valves since it's an interference engine, or so I've read. That's where I started and finished the night.
The plan was originally to replace the belt, WP, and tensioner and then do a compression check to make sure valves are sealing properly. If there's internal engine failure, the owner would rather put the money towards a newer car since this one is pretty beat up.
Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Tim

 
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Getting ready to pull the lower cover so I can access the crank pull and try turning it. I'll post back when done.

 
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Or a rod bearing gave up and now a piston is hitting the cylinder head.

Not if it still runs!

Um, right.

 
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I was able to get a socket and breaker on the crank pulley, obviously didn't have to remove the lower timing cover as I said before. Anyway, the crank turns and is smooth, no grinding like I've experienced with other vehicles. The timing belt is a little loose but not the problem.
I turned the engine over and the starter just spun. I couldn't tell if it was under any load, but it sounded almost as if the flex plate was turning as well, as if it sheared loose from the crank but still was able to rotate...? Is that even possible? At a loss...thanks for the reply.

 
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Do not crank it without the pulley installed and that bolt tight!!!!!! (Did I read that wrong? Too late? Was the keyway out of the timing gear?)

Does this mean the crank wasn't turning? Watch the pulley spin?

 
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My fault, I didn't explain that too well. I just wanted to turn the crank by hand to verify it's not seized. I didn't remove it or the bolt.
When I turned it over via the starter, the crank didn't turn with the starter. Okay, I didn't physically see the crank or crank pulley turning or not turning, but the cam gear wasn't turning so I used my best judgement since the timing belt is fine.
Any quick checks i can do before I tell the guy to sell it? He doesn't want to put more than a couple hundred into it to get it fixed and I don't blame him.

 
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Put the wrench on the pulley bolt and spin the crank by hand. Watch cam gear. Does the cam gear turn now?

 
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It does turn, and nothing seems unusual. The timing belt is a little loose, there's some play when I rock the crank back and forth. The play is in both slack and the teeth.

 
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So, sounds like the starter isn't engaging the ring gear?

Bad starter? Damaged?

 
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Starter is turning, that's for sure. I assume it's kicking out if its supposed to, but haven't verified it yet. I can't tell if it's engaging the ring gear. But when the starter is turning, it doesn't sound like just a starter turning.

 
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Automatic trans or manual?
Has the transmission ever been out? Recently?
Just to make sure the ring gear turns with the crank, is there an inspection cover on the bottom that can be easily removed, or would it be easier to remove the starter?

I can't picture one of these breaking the crank.
I can picture someone leaving the torque converter bolts loose and causing problems though.

 
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Automatic transmission. I think removing the starter is my next step. I'd imagine replacing the torque converter on it is a big task.

 
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Well, I pulled the starter out and reached inside to grab the flex plate/torque converter. They both spin freely.
Assuming there isn't much difference between how a civic's torque converter bolts to a crankshaft and a rear wheel drive truck, this is not a good thing.
Since the torque converter is spinning freely, that means either it became unbolted from the crank, or the crank snappped. Again, I can rotate the crank on the pulley side and the cylinders seem to have at least some compression.
It's time now to figure out if pulling the torque converter is worth my time and their money.

 
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They are not set up quite the same as most other manufacturers cars. The flex plate is bolted to the crankshaft, no ring gear on it.

The converter is bolted to the flex plate, and the ring gear is attached to the converter.

Pull off the braces/shift cable attachments and inspection covers from the bottom of the bellhousing/below oil pan, and see if the 6 or 8 small 6mm converter bolts were backed out (left loose) and broke off.

 
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I can see what appears to be an inspection cover, but it's behind some sort of brace which is being blocked by the exhaust collector and down pipe. Does all this really need to be removed just to get to the inspection cover? I can't find much support for the removal or exact location of the inspection cover online for an auto trans.

 
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IIRC that can be removed without disconnecting the exhaust pipes. Seems like I used to remove the entire trans without taking the exhaust apart.

Inspection cover #2:


You may have a large, cast, sort of "U" shaped piece that covers up the inspection plate and attaches to both the engine and trans. I think that only has like 4 or 5 bolts holding it on if it has it.


Shifter cable bracket #2



I'd think your goal is just to see up in the bellhousing area to figure out why the converter is no longer connected to the flex plate, or whatever happened. Once you figure that part out, you can then figure how to deal with it.

 
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Thanks for the break down! Very helpful. Hopefully I will be able to attack the cover tomorrow evening. I'll post back with what I find if not more questions. Thanks again!

 
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I pulled the inspection cover off and found bolts laying in the bellhousing. I managed to fish out a total of 5. Does anyone know how many bolts attach the flexplate to the torque converter? What size are they? They are much smaller than expected and for what they are supposed to hold together, I figured 8 or more would be used. Those I did find are not reusable as the threads are heavily damaged if not rounded off completely.
As a side note, the exhaust collector pipe needs to be removed from the manifold and its bracket in order to remove the bolts for the U-shaped bar and the bar itself. What is this bar for anyway? It's lightweight aluminum and seems to be of no structural help.

 
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you should never rotate the engine using the cam, this could cause the belt to jump time" always rotate using the crank, that would be the next step,

if you still can not rotate with the crank you need to remove the belt and find out what is not turning,

if you have a lot of knowledge about the timing you can rotate the cam by itself with the belt removed without hitting valves/pistons by turning the crank 90 degrees from TDC, this would put all of the pistons half way up out of the way of the valves,

you might also want to remove the spark plugs, this will make it easier to rotate the engine as there will be no compression

 
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Blame whomever last had the trans pulled out.

Bolts are 6mm x 1.0 pitch, 14mm long, 8 total.
Honda part # 95701-06014-08 (for 2000 civic)

Check threads in the converter for damage.

This could turn out to be fairly simple fix as long as owner does not go back to whomever 'forgot' to tighten those bolts.


Man, I thought you could just loosen those bolts far enough to be free then it would drop out. Oh well. Sorry.

It's a structural stiffener to reinforce and support the connection between the block and trans.

 
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Update:
I grabbed some M6x1.0 class 8.8 bolts at 16mm long. Broke one off when tightening. So I extracted it and grabbed some class 10.9 bolts, 20 mm long. The threads on the torque converter go through whatever ring they reside on and I thought it would be ideal to have a longer than factory bolts so they can grab the undamaged threads in the back. I rotated the engine by hand to make sure the bolts weren't hitting anything.
My point for that explanation...it's back together and runs. But now it makes a sort of high pitched loud noise when idling and just off idle. If I throttle up a little, the noise goes away but returns when it drops back down. Sounds like it's coming from the bell housing area. I can't tell if it's top or bottom.
If the bolts I used were hitting something or scraping something, what would it be?
What else would make a fast, loud, scraping noise? Bearing, bent shaft, torque converter...?
Hmm...torque converter...I didn't put it in gear when it was running. Well, the output side should have been locked and spinning in park so maybe that's not a possible source for the noise. I was thinking it wouldn't lock until a certain rpm, i.e. when the noise went away.
It was an idea anyway. I'd appreciate any of your ideas too!
Thanks for all the help so far! Your efforts have helped me get it running. Now just gotta figure out this noise, which could be the source of the problem.

 
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Did you make sure they aren't so long they did into the converter body?

The only things that come to mind so far:

leftover pieces of damaged bolts you didn't find yet,

damage to the areas where the backed out bolt heads had scraped around until they cut through or broke off or fell out


Do the heads of the new bolts stick out far enough to make contact with the block or something?

 
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I know the bolts are long enough to go through the other side of the ring they thread into. Just looking at images of torque converters for the civic, I am reasonably confident the bolts did not extend into the torque converter body. They aren't long enough, but just long enough to stick out a mm or two.
The heads of the bolts are just slightly taller than those that came out. But I rotated the engine by hand after all were installed and heard no scraping or any other indicators of contact from the bolts, but that's basically what it sounds like when it's running. I just don't see how engine speed would change that.
While I was under the car, I also made sure the bell housing was tight to the engine.

 
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Check crankshaft end play...... ?? Maybe the problems also damaged the crank thrust bearings. IDK.

 
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I'll take that response. Will check best I can tomorrow without proper tools. I can probably eyeball movement enough to determine if it's a cause for concern. Thank you for the reply!

 
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Thanks for all the help everyone! I removed the inspection cover and started the engine. The noise is gone. After manipulating the cover a few times, I was not able to make the noise go away so I just left it off. I know there is mixed feelings about whether this cover can remain off or needs to be on. I think it should stay on a manual transmission bit an automatic transmission probably will survive without it, unless someone can inform me otherwise.
It's running now and they are happy. Thanks again!

 
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It's intended to keep debris from meeting with the large spinning parts, so it's kinda important IMO. Gravel thrown up from cars in front can get everywhere, for example.

Were there any scrape/witness marks on it?
Was it bent somehow?
Bolts too long, or something else caused by the last person who forgot to tighten all those converter bolts?

 
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I think the plan is that he will order a new cover and I'll put it in eventually. That u-shaped bracket seems to cover much of the opening except a small part at the bottom. I agree, it should be there, but it should be alright until he gets a new one.
The old cover is scored from the old bolts and on one side, it has been scored all the way through. I tried bending it out of the way at these points but it would still scrape with the new bolts. But it seemed it scraped more towards the center where it covers the main bearing area. I dont really think that the new bolts added to the scoring on the outside. I could still see finger prints where the old bolts scored the plate which tells me the new bolts didn't hit those spots.
Hopefully some of that made sense.
Thanks for the time you've spent answering questions and providing knowledge and opinions. It's been accepted and appreciated.

 
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Could you perhaps use the old damaged cover to fashion some sort of spacer that you can use with the new cover? That might give you enough clearance to avoid the scraping, and still provide protection from dirt and grime.

It's a home-brew type of solution, but if you have the clearance, it might do the trick.

 
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It's tough because I think the cover has to fit exactly in place or it scrapes elsewhere. I bent the mounting tabs on the old cover in a way that pushed the clearance out a little bit, similar to what you are suggesting. I think that caused some misalignment so when I put it back in, the scraping continued. But there were wear marks more toward the inside around the main bearing area of the cover that I don't remember seeing before.