Wankenstein

1997 Civic EX (stock) coupe . A/T, 150K miles. Purchased 10 months ago.. no service records from previous owner.

Spent yesterday isolating what seems to be a worn out a/c compressor bearing. Idle pulley is working properly and without noise. New Bando A/C, PS, ALT belts installed yesterday (routine maintenance) . At this point the noise is constant when clutch is engaged or disengaged. I plan on repairing this asap before it seizes.

I haven't tried any auto a/c repair (have done a few minor home a/c split unit repairs) and I feel now is the time to give it a go. I do not take A/C repair lightly and plan to be as cautious and environmentally correct as possible. In my limited experience I know that both under-charging and over-charging the systems freon and PAG oil can cause issues. I've had several mechanics throughout the years tell me that when replacing an a/c compressor the receiver drier needs to be replaced as well. Should expansion valves(s), condensor or other parts be replaced too? Once the system is evacuated of Freon is it still under pressure? I plan to do more reading before I start on this. My brother has some auto a/c experience in case I need help and I will borrow his a/c gauges and tools. My son's friend is selling a new OE compressor for a bargain price... less than a clutch/bearing kit.

As a side note I a couple months ago I sprayed some HVAC cleaning foam (stated for use on car's condenser and radiator fins on label) on the outer fins of the radiator and condenser and hosed off thoroughly with light pressure water (to avoid bending fins). Not sure if this may have clogged the condenser? Compressor still works, air is still cold (though not efficient) so I doubt foaming/rinsing it caused any damage.

Any/all tips, comments, links, recommendations appreciated.

I watched the video below and he gives a few tips. For whatever reason he never reports on the results of trying out Artic Freeze ultra synthetic 134a and ice32:

ezone

Make sure it's the exact same, then slide the parts you need off of it and install on yours? Can usually be accomplished without removing the compressor from the car or discharging freon.
(IDK where the field ground wire is bolted though, if you replace the coil)

You will need to undo the engine mount and bottom bracket and unclip one wire harness so the engine can drop down for access.






Not necessarily.
Many just do this blindly because that's all they know, but never learned why or why not.
Most aftermarket sources demand drier replacement or they deny warranty.

Wankenstein

Okay. He bought it a his '97 Ex coupe but ended up selling the car. Hopefully, it will match up directly.

So, as long as the engine is not running/belt turning compressor.. then it's not under pressure when inert?

Is that the same driver's side lower mount I removed yesterday to get the A/C belt on?

What about contaminants?
If i do replace the drier does the system need to be evacuated?

ezone

If they are both EX coupes it should be the same.

Side note: When you had the belts off, you did spin the compressor pulley by hand and it was noisy?

You did spin the adjuster pulley and it was not noisy? It doesn't take much roughness in the bearing to make a lot of noise while the engine is running, and that is usually the first one to make noise....... (There are about 4 of these adjuster pulleys on our service writers counter at work for use as paperweights LOL)
The compressor guts (the pump section) does not turn until the clutch is engaged. The clutch plate is connected to a shaft which drives the pump inside.

The freon inside is where the pressure comes from. There is always pressure as long as there is freon in the system.

You only have to take out the freon if you have to disconnect hoses.*

The drive system is completely separate from the pump and freon.

You can replace the clutch, pulley, and coil without unbolting the compressor from the engine, nor touching the freon, if there's enough room.
If you need more room, you can unbolt the compressor to move it around without disconnecting hoses too.

Usually.
Not always, depends on how the hoses and pipes are constructed.
IIRC Your 6th gen system has a pair of rubber hoses attached to the compressor that would allow you to unbolt it and have some movement without hurting anything, but a 7th gen has a rigid pipe that comes out of the compressor and goes over the top of the engine that makes it unwieldy to move around.







* Like a spray can. You can pull the spray tip off the top and swap it to another can, but the can still has pressure inside it. ..... and if you punch a hole in the side of the can it can still blow up in your face.

I don't know why I just thought of that. It makes less sense now that I typed it out than it did in my head.
Yes, plus the one above it. The engine will drop another 4 inches or so, no problem.
Unclip the harness between the alternator area and the strut tower first.



First off, the unit does 3 jobs.
It is a filter--- to trap solids, as it has a filter screen inside it.
It is a drier---to absorb moisture in its dessicant bag.
It is a storage chamber---of sorts, to hold liquid freon and give the system a little bit of leeway in how much freon it can hold and still work effectively.

This is all done inside a sealed system. It is never exposed to air or moisture or foreign objects ---- as long as the system remains pressurized, sealed, and operable (barring an internal compressor failure)




Now:
Where would contaminants come from?
Did your compressor grenade itself internally? (It still works fine, but your pulley is the only thing noisy, right?)

Where would moisture come from?
Has all the freon leaked out?
Has the AC system been left open in high humidity conditions for a long period of time?




*Back to the spray can analogy (before you try to poke a hole in the side of the can) ...It's under pressure and it's sealed.
How can moisture get inside it?
How can solid contaminants get inside it?

Any AC system must be thoroughly evacuated every time the system is opened and exposed to atmosphere, regardless of the reason.

Also, any AC system that is charged by weight should be evacuated before charging.

It does not matter if you replace a drier or not, these are rules---- even though some people don't understand or choose to ignore them.

Wankenstein

No. However, I can do that tomorrow.

I completely removed it and spun it... no noise and smooth operation.
I had a known good a/c pulley on hand (from a prior Civic) tried it.. no noise.


If the two lines: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/036...G?v=1412796636 are unbolted from the compressor http://jase-ace.com/public/photo/For...essor%2002.JPG is there a a ball mechanism or similar to a quick connect at the end of each hose that seals pressure? OR to disconnect those lines the system need to be evacuated first? I understand that if the clutch and pulley bearing were only being replaced freon would not need replacement.

Thanks EZ for the auto a/c system 101 lessen. Makes sense what your are saying about contamination. Then, there are sites like this trying to sell parts: http://www.autoacsystems.com/_faqs/d...ompressor.html

ezone

Nope, everything is wide open. You must extract the freon before opening the system (removing a line).

Note here: evacuating the system is not the same as just removing the freon. Removing the freon is just that, leaving the system with zero pressure or a slight vacuum thereby rendering it safe for disassembly.
Evacuation means pulling a deep vacuum for an extended period of time in order to boil out any moisture.
But would make it simpler if your original compressor is good.
Well, at least to me it would be simple LOL

If you swap out the entire compressor then you have to deal with trying to figure out the correct amount of PAG oil. And type of PAG oil.

Wankenstein

You noted that in your 2nd reply. I just wanted to confirm for my better understanding.

Thank you for clarifying that.

I'll check the compressor pulley tomorrow morning and if turns out it's loose or noisy I'll probably buy the one from my son's friend (if it matches ) and remove the clutch and bearing assembly from it and install it on the current one. It would be overall cheaper and (hopefully) easier to go the clutch/bearing route. ETCG has a good video about this:

ezone

Is that a genuine Honda sourced Sanden compressor or an aftermarket reman unit, or new?

Hey, in the video that TL uses what looks like the same adjuster pulley as the Civic of the same era.

Wankenstein

He bought it from a chain auto parts store so, I doubt if it's OEM. I haven't talked to him or checked it out so not sure if it's new or reman.

Here's an image of the 6th gens: http://smg.photobucket.com/user/xham...gine1.jpg.html and that's how I installed it yesterday. However when I replaced the head gasket a couple months ago I had that idler pulley installed backwards from then until yesterday. I didn't realize that until I saw the attached image yesterday. ETCG vid shows the orange rubber part of bearing as facing out on that Acura.. 6th gens Civics that orange part faces in (to engine). Not sure if it effected the compressor as the idler pulley spins freely either way it's installed and I didn't notice any alignment issue.. all belt to pulley grooves aligned correctly. These little things that come with repetition and experience the average schlep mechanic like myself get in trouble with.

As far as belt tension I use this method:

Wankenstein

Found this clutch bearing on line that states it's compatible with year/make/model: http://www.ebay.com/itm/A-C-Compressor-Clutch-Bearing-30mm-ID-x-52mm-OD-x-22mm-Thick-SUN-AIR-BG603/201180372037?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D333007%26algo%3DRIC.FBT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33873%26meid%3D1a39e6b949c345531e5ccdd8%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D201419306553
Clutch hub: http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-A-C-Compressor-Clutch-Hub-SunAir-Products-CH-100/221570990337?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D333007%26algo%3DRIC.FBT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33873%26meid%3D746c839b21b847bfb5e3d59a7202d699%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D201180372037
Complete kit with snap rings:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/A-C-Compress...tWIQes&vxp=mtr

Can I get away with just the bearing only and reuse snap rings and clutch hub?

ezone

You have a way to change just the bearing?
All I have seen are staked in place inside the pulley.

Wankenstein

I didn't think that far ahead..lol. Could I bring it to a shop with a hydraulic press? Would I be better off finding one that is part of the compressor pulley assembly like the one shown in ETCG's video at the 13 minute mark.

Looks like I not going to find the time to check the compressor pulley for looseness today...aiming for Wednesday.

ezone

The compressor that's for sale has a pulley and bearing already assembled, right? The compressor can be had for cheap, right?



This pulley came out of a 2007 Fit. You can see the bearing is staked, no snap ring holding it in the pulley



I'm not gonna try to press one out and in, and hope I chisel enough metal down to keep it in place, then hope it doesn't come apart. I have to guarantee my work, and I don't want to risk it for a paying customer..

Wankenstein

Not as cheap as my son told me it was and it is a new OEM.This one should do it and use existing stater: http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-A-C-Compressor-Clutch-Hub-SunAir-Products-CH-100-/221570990337?fits=Year%3A1997|Make%3AHonda|Model%3 ACivic|Submodel%3AEX|Engine+-+Liter_Display%3A1.6L&hash=item3396a90101:g:2gIAAO Sw14xWIQVA&vxp=mt

I see your point.

Here's some helpful install info from a thread online:
"I figured it out...if anyone in the future need to ever change out the clutch from the compressor cause some do come with clutches, I know the process (this is for a civic ex 2000). First off, the reason why I'm doing this is because I didn't want to change out a perfectly good compressor when the only problem is the ac clutch pulley. The price for a brand new compressor is around $325 and for a AC clutch kit, its only $80! Also, if I had bought a new compressor, I would have had to evacuate and recharge my AC system, which would have cost me a lot more. So the tools I rented from Autozone:
1) AC clutch Holder - this allows you to take of the retaining nut that hold the AC clutch. This part took me a while since I didn't have an impact gun. What you wanna do is take all 4 that hold the compressor in place and let it hang off the two hoses. The reason for this is so you can get enough space.
2) AC clutch puller - this tool allows you to take off the AC clutch pulley, which is the part that the belt sits on that freely spins.
3) snap ring pliers - I bought this from autozone. Once you take off the AC clutch, there's a snap ring that holds the AC clutch pulley. Once you take off the snap ring, use the AC clutch puller to pull off the AC clutch pulley. After the AC clutch pulley is off there will be one more snap ring which holds the coil assembly. Take that off and install the new one. For me I had to use the two old snap rings that I took off the compressor, since the ac clutch kit that i bought that came with snap rings did not."

ezone

Your link looks like just a clutch hub.
I thought you needed the pulley with bearing.
Can you find a pulley for the compressor there?

Honda sells the clutch hub and pulley as a matched set.
Hondas part comes with snap rings, and shims to set up the clutch air gap.

How cheap can you find # 38900-P2R-A01


IF you have to use a puller on the pulley, place a deepwell socket or similar over the compressor shaft and press on that instead of on the shaft. You can damage the guts if you press against that shaft. I tend to use prybars to wiggle the pulleys off.



Check this post for a bunch of pics of replacing the clutch and coil on an 8th gen:
https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...ml#post4691850

Wankenstein

How lost would I be without your input EZ? Thanks again,
I think I might try my luck pulling the clutch hub and pulley assembly from a local junk yard..if I can find one and for $50 or less. In that way I get practice pulling it and save some dough. Of course, I could be pulling a used POS that might only last a month.
Here's an OE:

ezone

Spin it first, and listen.
Look at the mileage on the car too, if possible.
That's freekin cheap.

Wankenstein

Still haven't had time to get to it (work 2 jobs including night shifts).
Called local LKQ salvage yard and their U-pull it price for A/C compressor is $35 with exchange and $45 w/o exchange. They also sell a new Sanden compressor for $190.

Wankenstein

Bearing noise has become louder in the past 24 hours. I removed the a/c belt and checked for compressor pulley for looseness. It's not loose however, doesn't spin (by hand) as easily as it should and I can hear the the bearing scraping as I turn it. Hard to see the stamped label on the compressor but, it looks to be OEM Sanden with the green stamped label. Also, very possible it's the original but, I have no records to back that up.

I am a bit conflicted whether I should go salvaged pulley/clutch assembly or buy the OE I linked previously. With salvaged I can match up EX model and possibly find an OEM part. New OE..new bearing but, possible fitment issues.
Also, OE is most likely a Chinese made bearing and that raises concern.
Either way I'm not looking forward to this but, if it works it should save me some expense. I plan to draw out a diagram as I take out each piece to get correct spacing during reassembly.

ezone

Take the belt off before the pulley locks up and melts the belt or stalls the engine.

Four Seasons (in your last link) is not OE.
OE would mean purchasing genuine parts from Honda, and the parts will be reliable.

Any other source leaves room for doubt unless you can verify the manufacturer of the parts.


Counterfeiting of well known brand name parts is a problem throughout almost every industry, but IMO it's rare to see counterfeit problems when obtaining Genuine Parts through approved channels.

ezone

From the one review in your Amazon link:

I unbolted the AC Compressor from the car and pulled it up to the top to access everything but I did not have to remove the refrigerant which was good. The coolant hoses are flexible and allow you to twist and move the AC Compressor into a position where you can get to everything.

Wankenstein

I removed the belt and did not put back on.

I usually think of OEM as Original Equipment Manufacturer
and OE as Original Equipment equivalent (aftermarket).

Do you know if salvage yards are required to remove Freon from their U-pull it cars? Can I just unbolt the low pressure line first from the salvage yard compressor to avoid any pressure issues? I figure why go through the trouble of just pulling the pulley assembly (junkyard part) when I am paying for the whole compressor. when I can just pull the compressor and remove the pulley assembly at home.

ezone

It is.

Now I see why you were calling the aftermarket stuff that.

It is not.
OE stands for Original Equipment.

Ask at your local yard.

Ask your local yard if they will recover/reclaim the Freon for you before you take anything apart, as the Freon has significant value, and it damages the Ozone layer if released into the atmosphere.

It doesn't matter which line, either are a danger if the system has Freon in it.
Pressure is equal throughout the system when it is not operating.

Right.

You may want to unbolt the hoses at the ends away from the compressor, take the hoses with you. You never know, they may come in handy?

ezone

It is.

If you find a brand name O.E.M. in the crappy parts stores, that crap is a rip off.
Now I see why you were calling the aftermarket stuff that.

It is not.
OE stands for Original Equipment.

Ask at your local yard.

Ask your local yard if they will recover/reclaim the Freon for you before you take anything apart, as the Freon has significant value, and it damages the Ozone layer if released into the atmosphere.

It doesn't matter which line, either are a danger if the system has Freon in it.
Pressure is equal throughout the system when it is not operating.

Right.

You may want to unbolt the hoses at the ends away from the compressor, take the hoses with you. You never know, they may come in handy?

Wankenstein

I wasn't referring to that specific brand... I guess I have been confused about OE vs OEM. This helped clear it up for me: http://www.ebay.com/gds/OE-OEM-and-A...6398251/g.html

This line within that link is also why I it wasn't clear to me: "Many use the OE & OEM words with deception for the sale. Be careful of words like OE quality, spec or equivalent along with many other trick in words that are purposely misleading."

I buy parts from Amazon and EBay occasionally and mostly buy OEM labeled parts that have the Honda sticker on the box or packaging, sold by a Honda dealer or known Honda wholesaler. However, I have seen OE quality or equivalent in the wording on E-bay and Amazon sold parts that I know for sure aren't OE or OEM... I avoid those parts unless they are made in Japan and known to have a good reputation (ex: Aisin brand water pumps)

Okay. Seems like U-pull salvage yards would be mandated to remove freon under EPA laws.

Good to know and that was my concern.
I'll get a price on the hoses.. shouldn't be much more and they may not charge for them. Thanks E

ezone

The brand name O.E.M. stands for Original Engine Management, usually sold at parts stores that are open on Sunday.
The name is specifically chosen to capitalize upon the unknowing and unwary consumer who has heard good things about OEM but has little awareness beyond that.

Note: When I use the phrase "parts stores that are open on Sunday", it's because they cater to the DIYer and value shoppers that rarely consider anything beyond perceived price. They do not cater to the professional.

There's also OES, original equipment supplier, to me that's the same as OEM original equipment manufacturer.

Oxygen sensors and spark plugs are a good example of OE/OEM:
NGK and DENSO are both OEM (or OES) brands, Honda buys their products and installs their products on the cars, that makes those items original equipment.

NTK is a division of NGK, you will see that name on many of the O2 sensors.
If you want the exact same replacement product through the aftermarket stores, you usually need to do your own research first.

Caveat Emptor.

We have the same issues with deceptive wording when trying to choose an appropriate engine oil (and other fluids) that need to meet specific requirements.

Beware of counterfeits, the internet makes it super easy to pass them off.

------

Something else we run into is "Reboxing".

An aftermarket company somehow obtains actual factory/OE replacement parts and reboxes them for sale under their own brand. This seems to happen with very low production volume cars and parts where there would not be significant profit in trying to replicate the parts on their own, even in China.

I also see stuff like an absolutely correct (NTK or DENSO sensor for example) part in some random parts house brand box.

Sometimes you just can't know what you will get, and you certainly won't get anyone IN the parts store that can tell you what's inside the box ahead of time. Most aren't paid enough to care, and most cheap stores won't pay enough to hire anyone that knows squat about their job or cars.

Probably, but it may just mean "prior to crushing" much the same as fuel tanks must be removed and other fluids drained prior to putting the car in the crusher or shredder.

Again, ask at your local.

I suggested it because I seem to remember the high pressure hose tended to develop leaks.....although a junkyard part may not be any better.

--------------------------------------------

Damn, I need some coffee.....

Wankenstein

Thanks Ezone for further clarifying parts buying. Fortunately, I've had good luck so far buying occasional parts through Amazon. I try to go with reputable online sellers such as HondaPartsNow, hondapartscheap and a few others.
I rarely buy at chain part stores and I know ahead of time that they are just re-branded (Autozone = Duralast) aftermarket parts. I'm also aware that the "limited lifetime warranty" usually means changing out that part many more times in the owner's life than a comparable OE part.

I plan to pull a compressor tomorrow if I can find one. The mornings and evening temperatures here in Tampa Bay area of Florida are cool but, the midday heat and humidity is still swamp-nuts producing.

Wankenstein

Video posted below of the winner I picked. Well, what I hope is a winner and was off the only 6th gen EX in the yard. Odometer: 250k miles. Unfortunately, doesn't appear to be a Sanden but, not sure as there isn't any stamps or stickers on it. My guess is a Sanden core that was re-manufactured.

I made the video at the junkyard and tried to capture sound while spinning. Unfortunately, I didn't account or the wind in the mic.
The pulley spins very freely and there isn't any play in it. I asked the checkout guy (he's been there many years) if he thought the bearing/pulley assembly is good and he spun it while putting his fingers over the two holes the hoses connect to. He said in his opinion that it seems to be okay but, really won't know until hooked up to engine/ ac belt.

I told the checkout man about my intention to pull the clutch/pulley assembly and he said if I bring the rest of it back, after refund my total cost is $20. Any issues I can bring it all back and get a full refund. So, not much to lose other than my time and patience..lol. The only thing I needed to do to remove it from the salvage car was remove the four 12 mm bolts..everything else was already moved or gone. The hoses were in bad shape so I didn't take them.

ezone

There's a couple different numbers for the clutch and pulley sets (IDK what the differences might be).....Was the car was you got it off of identical to yours?

Wankenstein

Yes, Both '97 EX's. Only difference is mine is A/T and the junker is M/T.