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I am about to start installing the equipment I have into my civic (05 4 door). This isn't the first system I have installed but it is the first one I am trying to do properly getting the most out of the stuff I have.

Here are the speakers I have. Alpine SPX-177a. They are a couple of years old. The midrange are hemp fiber cones with strontium magnets, the tweeters are soft dome. The cross overs are really adjustible.
"external crossovers feature a number of small jumpers that allow fine-tuning of the systems overall response. Unlike most crossovers where the only tweeter’s output level can be manipulated, these systems provide a myriad of options on both the woofer and tweeter with the intention of providing correction for less than optimum speaker placement. (Alpine reports that this is the first crossover to ever take into account mounting position, phase, and phase integration between subwoofers and tweeters — Ed.)" <-- that was taken from a review I found.

Here are my questions.

Am I going to get a better sound stage if I mount everything in the doors or go with kick pannels?

If kick pannels, should I custom build them or get the ones from Q-form. The ones from Q-form say they only fit up to 6 1/8 inch..... these are 6.5 am I going to run in to problems or can I mod the kicks? I have never fiberglassed befor but I can pretty much build anything.

Also I will be installing SPX-17MB (6.5 midbase drivers). If I install the kickpannels I will put these in the doors... if not ill probably put them in the rear deck.

one final question. If I put the 17mb's in the front doors do I worry about putting anything in the back for rear fill?

I know its alot of questions... thanks for the help

 
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I would build some kicks. That way the mid base is aimed up a little bit more and you can stage them a little better.... I'm not sure if you would be able to mod the Q forms to fit the 6.5" but my guess would be that you could. Why would they make one that is 6 1/8" ? I'm sure it really fits a 6.5 wo much modding

 
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q-logics can hold a 6.5 but the speaker will hit the floor/frame behind all the plastic.

 
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i would definitely not put the midbasses in the rear
that pretty much ruins the point of a three way front stage up front
if you do put in midbasses, put a lot of attention to detail in your sound deadening

 
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My plan was to put a mat on both the inside and outside metal skins and then use a fibrous carpet pad on the back side of the door panel. Is that going to be enough?

 
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its funny, I spend so much time and effort into equilizing pathlengths in my car, kick locations, recessing speakers so they are wide, etc, etc, etc, etc.

and then Ill sit in fellow enthusiasts cars who bought top shelf gear and spent hours and hours tuning, and despite the door locations, sound as good or better.

the kickpanels are a way of getting more equal pathlengths from speakers to the listeners ear. you can tune gear in your doors to sound just as good. Its like compensating for the poorer position.

but both locations can sound great, just as both locations can sound like poop. And kickpanel locations doesnt guarantee a lower tuning requirement, neccesarily. But the door locations pretty much guarantee lots of tuning will be required to bring in the stage.

its all give and take.

 
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My .02.... I agree with WhiteRabbit for the most part. I can be kinda frustrating to spend tons of times and cash setting up a soundstage only to sit in an IS300 with a stock location setup and go "damn that actually sounds good". I currently run Diamond HEX 6.5's in the kicks with silk dome tweets imaged and alum dome in the a-pillars at ear level firing damn near right at each other but 10db down. I use the rear fill from the HEX crossover to power to Diamond M5 6.5's in the rear deck with no tweets. It's funny to say it but with a strong frontstage you will NEVER miss a rear stage. The rear fill is mostly there for anyone in the backseat. I was worried about cancellation with door speakers so there are none. I love the way it sounds and it will all be up for sale by summer when it's time to buy an A4.

 
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Thank you for the pics.. they help alot.

Thats what I want to achieve.. a really nice natural sound with a good deep wide stage.

I took a look at the Alpine speakers I have and figured out I cant use them (they got damaged when i was moving house) So I need a new set of components. I was thinking of Focal 165KP's running ooff the Audisson. I think im going to keep the stock speakers in the rear deck and power them off the H/U faded so I can barely hear them.

I have also thought about adding midbass in the doors and a sub later on.

Did adding the second set of tweeters improve your sound stage a lot?

And do you think I should run a dedicated EQ or should I be fine with the cross overs that come with the Focal's. I guess I could use the cross over from the Alpine's too.

 
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deep and wide is a pain in the ****. But if you dont care so much about height, its pretty easy.

the farther away you can get your mids, the better. also the wider they are spaced, the wider potential your stage has. even wider than rufus has, if you can manage it.

keeping your tweets low in the kick area will help maintain that wide stage. Its not unheard of to get a high stage without a rainbow effect utilizing kickpanel locations for both midranges and tweeters. But its not easy.

Fortunately, you are looking for wide and what I assume to be distance from the listening position. And far wide kickpanel locations for both mids and tweets will get you that with relatively little tuning.

 
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Rufus I like that mount for the e.q. You have any more pics of how it was made, or what its made of? You weld it or just bolt it all together?

 
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Thats what she said

 
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Lower frequencies tend to be less directional. In that sense you COULD do a midbass in a membrane but I'd suggest a matched 3 way setup before the ale carte approach. Others here may have a different opinion. Depends on how picky you are. A nice Dynaudio 3 way would sound rad.

The second tweets: Did it help? Immensely. No lie. However it also helped because when people ride in the car, the tweets remain so low to the carpet, that it blocked the pathlength

I run active and passive. Both serve their own functions. Again, how picky are you?

 
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2 things to address here:

1) My kicks are HUGE. In hindsight they would not have been as large. Further apart would have been nicer. In the end we were forced to use a steeper angle as well to acheive imaging because of this. If you really want to get picky the underneath of each side should be identical as well. A lot of people use velvet too underneath. Rabbit can prob talk more about cancellation, reflection, etc

2) I agree about the rainbow affect as well. I got lucky. Especially with alum dome which tend to be bright in the first place. I can provide pics of the A-Pillars if anyone wants

 
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All welded. Just measure.

 
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I think I'm going to go with a 2 way system to start and then add mid bass later on.

From what I can gather I am best to go with kick panels and get the mids as far apart as possible. Use a Titanium tweeter in the kick panel and add a silk tweeter in the A-Pillar (pictures would be a huge help.. thanks)

How do you power the 2nd set of tweeters? from a separate channel or can you use the same channel?

I'm really fuzzy on the whole active/passive thing at the moment.

 
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Tweets are powered by their own crossover on the same channel.

 
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good lord, I love that a pillar install.

james, have you ever heard of the KISS rule?

 
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Thats cool man. Did you thread the trunk area to bolt it in, or did you just fish some nuts back behind there???

 
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All of the pillars are wrapped in grille cloth and the headliner was dyed black as well. The front window is completely tinted. In the daytime it's tough to see in the car.

For the EQ mount I drilled holes in the rear deck and used nuts to hold it up..

 
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I have.. why do you ask?

All I am trying to do is get the best out of the equipment I have. Since I'm new to this I need to gather as much information as possible and then decide for myself what I want to do. You guys are providing a tonne of help so thank you for that.

 
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Its easy to "Keep it Simple" but a lot easier when you understand it. I went through the phase of not knowing what was what as well. I bought Cerwin Vega 10's and hated em, bought 10w6's hated em, bought PPI Flat Piston 12's and didn't like em enough, had Powerclass amps, PC series amps, Art Series amps (I liked PPI can't ya tell) before sticking with my current setup. Buy some equipment thats middle of the road. Don't break your budget and suffer a shitty install. You can always upgrade equipment. People love to be technical, hell I do too, but the definition of pathlength didn't put speakers in my car. Just get the job done, learn about it a little, and you'll come to enjoy your stereo more than you imagine.

 
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reason I ask is there is so much discussion here about adding imaging tweets, running 3-way components up front, kickpanel locations, adding rearfill on top of everything, and the list goes on. That is a complicated stereo!

since you've heard of the KISS rule, dont you think it may apply here? I'll suggest that a simple stereo is a hell of a lot easier to tune!

 
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A lot of newer decks allow for time correction if you insist that you can audibly tell one channel from the other. I was you about 2 years ago. Didn't know ****. Spend WAY more time and effort than needed to. Here is my solution for you that will be custom:
Buy some Q-Form kickpanels - They are a good entry level kickpanel. Buy some Dynamat or similar sound deadening product and apply it to the backside. This won't give off a ton of bass, but won't cost you a fortune either.
Get a set of 2 ways with a crossover that has a rear fill. You can buy a crossover seperately but buying an all inclusive package will make it easier.
Put something in the rear deck WITHOUT a tweet. I traced a 6x9 on some MDF and put a 6.5 in it. Thats up to you. The rear fill should have a setting on it for volume. Keep it about 10db down.

You can put the tweets in the kickpanels as well. Buy silk ones.... Keep the speakers out of the doors and spend some time listening to what it sounds like without door speakers.

 
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One of the reasons I'm asking so many questions and discussing all of these different scenarios is just my way of learning. A couple of weeks ago I knew nothing about SQ in a car. I started doing some research and that just lead to more questions, and here we are. I figure if I learn as much as I can before I start on this project then the more successful I will be and the more informed I can be about the decisions I need to make. So most of the questions and discussion here are just that... learning.

I'm definatly not going to start installing and do everything at once. I'm actually going to start with less than Rufus suggested. Just a 2 way set up up front. Although I am still going to make my own kick panels.... mostly because I will enjoy the challenge. However if I find that if I'm getting alot of the rainbow effect I now know I can try to get rid of it.

I dont think I've ever been in an SQ car so the only reference I have is what I can find on here (both through your advice and my own research) and my home system (its a simple 2 channel set up). What I would like to be able to achieve is the same kind of sound the home stereo give me in my car.

So all in all I am just trying to gather as much information so that I can figure out a good starting point, and what my options are in the future.

 
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wurd

 
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I find headphones are a great resource, too

 
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Know any high quality headphones? I'd like to get some...

 
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It all depends what your looking for.

Here is a link with a bunch of different headphones ranging anywhere from $25 to $1260.

http://www.headphone.com/products/headphones/full-size/

Bang & Olufsen also make some really nice ones.

http://www.bang-olufsen.com/web2/sys...systems&sub=ls

 
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I think that first link is a fantastic resource, minus being able to go out and test headphones for yourself.

Ive heard from die hard sennheiser fans that the HD595's were their favorites from the whole series.

I've also heard some folks complain their Grado headphones had imaging issues. But noone had tried the RS-1 or RS-2 sets, which I am highly curious about.

regardless, for anyone out here who has only crap in their home and car and need a reference for tuning either one, even mid-fi headphones under $100 can be a great resource to improve the sound. $600 headphones arent a requirement.

 
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I concur