faultyscrew

I'm looking for a mid-bass driver to fill out my system. At the moment I have:

Eclipse 5444
Adire Shiva
DLS Audio MS5 in Q-Forms
PG X400.1
PG X200.1

The DLS MS5's are 5.25s and lack much mid-bass. I like when my Shiva only handles the really low stuff (sub-bass) so now I need a mid-bass driver. I still have the stock 6x9s in the rear but they sound like crap so I have everything faded to the front about 85%. I want a mid-bass driver coupled with an amp. I was thinking of getting new 6x9s for the rears but they'll sound bad anyway becasue of the air pressure from the sub. My other option is to put the mid-bass driver in the front door panels where they will sound good - the only problem is I must get a 6.5" speaker which normally doesn't have the best mid-bass. Can anything larger fit in the door with slight modification?

As far as 6.5s go - which handle mid-bass the best? I'm not sure what amp I'm going to go with but maybe another PG or might look into something diffrent - I'm not sure since I really like my PG amps so far - never overheat even on the hottest of days!

I was thinking of maybe an Adire Koda 6.5 - it should handle the mid-bass extremely well and fill out the frequencies between the midrange DLS drivers and the 12" sub. Anyone have any experience with them? They're not too bad of a price either.

Thanks!

Rufus

iTrader: (17)

My Diamond Audio HEX 6.5 have a ton of bass in my kickpanels.

J187

First off, I don't what you mean when you say 6.5" dont' have the best mid-bass. Anything larger than that is probably going to be geared to playing bass. 6.5" Typically is the best mid-bass speaker. 6x9s usually play a full/fuller range and are used for either fill or to simulater a "complete" sound in factory systems.

Second, do not upgrade your rear speakers to better your sound. THey should be used only to "fill" in the sound you experience from the front stage. CHange the factory panasonics to some 6.5" mid drivers and run them off the deck (if you can) and you'll be much happier not haven't to fade the sound to the front.

Third, If you are looking for the best solution and don't mind modifications, JL Audio makes a 6.5" Sub that fits into a tiny, tiny enclosure. I beleive the sub is a 6W0 and the Enclosure is .15-.20 but don't quote me. If you amp it, mid bass will be outstanding. I don't believe DLS has a Coaxial mid driver you could add. I think everything is either 2 or 3 way. You could definitley (and probably should) swap the 2 ways you got for the 6.5 3-ways from DLS. THat way the 6 goes in the door and the, what is it like a 3" mid or something? Goes in the kick with the tweet. This would be the best thing to do because your QLogics aren't enclosed (unless youve enclosed them) and the smaller mids won't need to move any air as they are free-airs. BTW, if you haven't enclosed your Qforms, thats probably why you aren't getting any midbass from the 5s.

J

faultyscrew

I'm keeping the 5.25 and simply adding the mid-bass - I don't want to swap them out since my DLS MS5 are great in the range they play in. I just need a driver that will fill the void between the 5.25 and the sub. The sub is too large to reproduce good mis-bass and the 5.25 are too small to reproduce good mid-bass. This is why a 6.25 driver would be perfect for a mid-bass driver as it would simply go into my door panels and complement the 5.25 in the kicks up front.

I was never thinking of upgrading my rears. Either way they will sound bad due to the pressure of the sub and such. At the moment I'm using them as fills and they work well for just fills.

I'm running the rear fills off of deck power since they don't need an amp since they're just fills. I would want to amp the mid-bass drivers. I just checked out that JL sub - seems nice however I must see what type of modifications will be needed. If regular mid-bass driver such as the Adire Koda 6. Jl also offers a mid-bass driver: the XR650-CW - it seems pretty decent and comparable to the Koda 6. I think either of these would be sufficent for what I need it to do. The JL 6.5 sub is something to look into but it may be more than what I need and a hassle to install - nto sure though. I think if I put in a small sub in the door I'll have too much bass - but then again maybe it will be better - I've never heard this JL sub.

Anyway at the moment the Adire Koda 6 and the JL XR650-CW seem like likely candidates. What do you guys think?

JL Woofer
JL 6.5 sub
Adire Koda 6

LudlamTheory

sir
if your speakers of different sizes provide a different sound, then thats a coloration.
coloration = distortion
distortion = function of a cheap speaker
there is no "best" size for a midbass
why are most 6.5? convenience
dynaudio's dedicated midbass drivers are 8"
you gonna argue with dynaudio?
the pg ti elite midbass is 9 inches
some home theater applications even use 10's or 12's for midbass

remember, a midbass would require its own crossover and its own amplification. usually even more amplification than your midrange
the adire koda is GREAT midbass driver, specifically designed to run in stock door locations, provided that the install is adequate (proper baffles, sound dampening, powering, tuning, etc.)
then you could jack up the xover frequency on the dls drivers, which will allow them to play louder while staying clear.
a typical midbass xover point os +/- 200 hz. i personally like overlapping frequencies, makes the sound less directional, aka, the art of making speakers disappear. i ran my last 5.25 set down to 150 hz, but let my midbasses play up to 200-220 hz.

J187

Sir,
Coloration = distortion. Not entirely true.
In fact, doesn't overlapping, as you say you are so fond of, cause coloration too?

Coloration is not always unpleasant though. Although not quite as accurate as the original signal, its perceived sound to the listener may be just what is needed. As far as the best size for a midbass speaker. I think its pretty obvious that my comment on 6.5" speakers was a direct response to faulty's saying that 6.5s were not good midbass speakers. I simply meant that in this situation, 6.5s were the best midbass speaker for him, considering he wanted to put it in the door and not have to cut huge holes in the metal or baffle the S^t out of it. I know very well that midbass drivers can be 8 or 9" as well. As far as would I question Dynaudio? Sure. Why Wouldn't you? Hell, if you aren't going to question Dynaudio, Quart, Rainbow, Infinity or someone, then you aren't going to have an opinion that wasn't written for you already. Since these major speaker manufacturers have very different ideas and opinions from one another, simply having preference to one means you are questioning the other to some degree. JL makes awesome subs, I question the foam surrounds. That doesnt' mean I know more or that I am disrespecting JL. Hope you understand where I'm coming from.

Faulty, if you arent' looking to baffle or get into a lot of custom install, you might want to check out those XR650-CW, I intended to mention them before, but forgot. I've heard the 6" subs but never the XRs. The subs were outstanding, I'm sure the XRs would be too.

Jason

Jason

brash

That's not true. Why do you think tweeters are smaller than subwoofers? Because the smaller size provides a different sound. It's not a coloration (or distortion, which are two different things BTW) of the sound to have a certain intended frequency range.

LudlamTheory

different sound does not equal frequency response
different sized speakers are used because we have yet to be able to find a single speaker for the car that can provide the full 20 hz to 20 khz accurately and at desirable levels (my expensive headphones can get damn close, but thats only puts out desirable levels at .5" away from your head)
theres more than just "sound"

LudlamTheory

here you have mistaken the term coloration for cancellation
coloration is a speaker's tendency to output the signal with something it wasnt inputted, such as a resonance of the cone causing second or third order harmonic distortion,

for example, 6x9's, my original comment about the function of a cheap speaker was geared directly towards 6x9's. I've yet to meet a 6x9 without cone flex, and cone flex causes resonances which = distortion. find me a single audiophile grade 6x9... they dont exist

for those that done know:

cone flex is the tendency of a speaker to change its shape under levels of high output. this is due to both the shape and make-up of the speaker. the round shape of a standard speaker gives it a lot of structural integrity, kind of like domes on buildings. one COULD just make the cone from a stronger material, but that would add weight, which would increase the moving mass, which would hinder the higher frequency extension. when something is moving 3000-5000 times per second (3khz - 5 khz), you want weight to be at the absolute lowest amount possible, or the laws of momentum hinder you from doing so. tang band makes a 6"x9" subwoofer, but its a subwoofer, its only designed to play under 100 hz. same with kicker l7's. they dont have to move 4000 times in a second, so if the cone weighs 100x as much as a standard 6x9 cone, thats alright. that momentum can be overtaken.

back on the subject:

what occurs with messing with crossover points is cancellation, which is the waves from the 2 different speakers playing the same signal cancelling each other out.

cancellation will be caused by overlapping crossover points if done incorrectly.
if done correctly, and there are no effects of cancellation, then none will occur.

as to coloration being pleasant or unpleasant, thats PURELY opinion. it isnt something we can quantify. some people like harmonic distortion. I dont, but you may.

perfect example:

an installer i knew ran a great system. arc audio amplification, eclipse deck, image dynamics subwoofers, rainbow components. you cant say thats a crappy setup. He met a guy, at one of those car showoff things they have in parking lots of supermarkets and mall's, who ran an xplod system, prefab box, speakers in their stock location, nothing extra (deadening, etc). very low-mid grade system. the guy listened to the installer's system, and thought it sounded like absolute garbage, preferred the simple xplod system. why? because thats what he liked.

this argument is done over and over and over again with almost every aspect of audio, the most notable one being the analog vs digital or the tube vs solid state. some folks swear by tube amps, although its scientifically proven that the "tube sound" is merely second and third order harmonic distortion. why? god knows. I've yet to do a proper a/b comparo on either situation to provide my feedback on it.

my original comment about midbasses and their larger sizes was due to your comment before which said:
i may have made a wrongful assumption about your audio knowledge, but the way i read that was you stating that any driver larger than 6.5" is a bass driver not a midbass driver. i was merely stating that the majority of automotive midbass drivers are 6.5 or 7" because of the fact that the majority of cars have a hole for 6.5 or 7" drivers.

wow... i wasnt expecting to rant this much, and sorry if you actually read through the whole thing.

auto84

iTrader: (2)

lol^^ at the last line, but ludlam you do know your sh*t. i give you props for that.

alex053

iTrader: (9)

you can correctly over lap frequencies from speakers and acctually gain sound. cancelation is a function of phase more than frequency. you will need to brush up on orders of crossovers and at what freq's your crossovers change phase at. you can also gain volume by speaker placement....spl guys dont just guess at where to put those baffels. read up on quarter and three quarter wave coupling.


ludlam is right about cone flex...one of the major improvements of last years Q series from MB Quart was a sprayed on titanium coating on the cone of the midbass to improve stiffness and linerarity at high power. think about whats attached to the cone, the voice coil. now if that moves around in the gap your going to get a non linear movement of the speaker, that sounds bad and in extreme cases you will get a VC that touches the magnet (blown speaker....0 ohms) cone strenth is very important for SQ but its a balancing act for mass of the cone. thats why strong light material is used in top notch speakers (mb quart, pg ti series, focal, rainbow)


back on subject

i use mb quart PCE164 6.5" add a mid bass kit that plays from 70-250 installed in the doors. downside is they rattle the hell outta my door panels...i gotta work on it. oh and you will need a spacer to roll the window down all the way.

faultyscrew

When I stated that a 6.5 isn't good for mid-bass I feel I worded it wrong. What I meant to say is that if I had a choice I would probably use a bigger driver such as a 7, 8, or 9". In my case I have no choice and a 6.5" is my only option. I didn't mean to say that a 6.5" driver is unable to reproduce great mid-bass - in fact I've heard some 6.5" drivers at my local shop that had excellent mid-bass. I was just wondering if it were my only option and what would be the best option since I must get a 6.5" driver. When I stumbled upon the Adire Koda 6 I figured it would be perfect. Also the JL mid-bass driver sound promising. Both are in the same price range and want to know which would be best in terms of accurate mid-bass. I'm somewhat biased towards the Adire Koda 6 since I love my Shiva but I have no doubts that the JL wouldn't be good. Anyone have experiences with these drivers and could recommend either one? Thanks!

LudlamTheory

id take the adire over the jl in a heartbeat. remember though, you will need proper xover work and sufficient power for it. a good 100x2@4 ohms would be great for it

if you wanna spend less, look into the peerless csx midbass. i run it now and its a monster

WhiteRabbit

the midbass capabilities of the koda driver is completely insane. Ive tried them in my doors, in kickpanels, and even built a special ported box for a pair, and in each case, they trounced my car with midbass. In fact, from a competition SQ standpoint, there was TOO much midbass!

even now they just sit in my car disconnected, jsut taking up space to hide all the other ugly stuff underneath the enclosure.

If you like strong kickdrum or loud rock music, overrepresented bass guitar (anyone here a RATM fan? ), the koda driver may be the perfect driver for you.

WhiteRabbit

also check out the digital designs w6.5 driver. think koda with slightly less midbass capabilities (but still greater than neccesary for SQ competition) and a lot more midrange, and A LOT more powerhandling.

the ideal speaker for the blockrocker who can only cram so many speakers in their car, but still desire the my-midrange-can-keep-up-with-my-seven-12"-subwoofers kind of car.

J187

Ludlam, Just so you don't make a "wrongful assumption about my audio knowledge" as you said. My comment was that anything larger than 6.5" would be PROBABLY GEARED toward playing bass. I did not, as you said, infer that every speaker larger than 6.5" is a bass speaker. The probability of finding a speaker larger than that designed to play midbass is pretty low unless you are looking specifically for it. Obviously if you know where to look you can find one, but the majority of, say, 8" woofers you see are subs. Thats all I meant. And as far as Coloration goes, I am not confusing the term with anything. I guess if you take it literally, Coloration IS a type of distortion, but not always in a negative context. Remember, most people associate the word distortion with terribly dirty sound, like clipping or a really bad change i waveform. I guess I've never been clear on what you were saying speakers of difference sizes providing different sound? Who said anything about different sized speakers providing different sound?

brash

FWIW, people generally (at least in my area of not-quite-expertise-but-still-more-than-most-people -- music production) refer to speakers "coloring" sound when they do not play exactly what they are sent. This can be because of distortion, but more often it refers to speakers that are not "flat." Meaning, the speaker does not play certain frequencies at the correct level. For example, some speakers might overemphasize the low end, particularly at lower volume levels, and you end up with problems trying to figure out how loud that bass line actually is.

Another example would be some frequencies having a more limited range, so when you get a quiet high sound, you can't hear it. This happens on my laptop speakers -- I was checking out a song someone was working on, where they said they got some crackle in the background. I didn't hear any crackle at all, until I listened through my monitors.

Anyway, the point is, coloration includes, but is not limited to, distortion. At least if you want to communicate with the folks that produce audio...

Sorry if it feels like I'm just dragging this thread on, but I felt compelled to reply since this is one of those rare things that I actually kind of know what I'm talking about...

faultyscrew

Wow! I didn't think this thread would become so intense. Anyway the Koda 6 seems like the likely candidate as it does do everything I want it to - lots of mid-bass that is currently lacking or just heard very faintly if at all. I listen mostly to rock and lots of loud kick-drums and guitars, and bass playing on smaller guage strings - everything the Koda will handle.

As far as amping I always figured it would need at least 100w x2 and some good crossovers. Maybe even an amp with lower and high pass filters would work? At the moment I have a PG X100.2 for my midrange drivers (DLS MS5 5.25) - I think another PG X100.2 would do the job - any other amp suggestions for the Koda 6?

I also had another question - at the moment I don't have any type of Dynamat or sound dampening in the car. At the moment I think my car sounds great. Will sound dampening add enough audio fidelity that its worth the investment and added weight to the car or should I just hold off on it. I don't want to add it based upon it will sound a little better - it's got to be a noticeable change if not a drastic dfifference in sound.

I'm very excited to order my Koda's as soon as I get the rest of the money for a pair and an amp and such. Thanks to everyone who's been helping out with this thread and my system in general!

LudlamTheory

like i said, i misread your first part, but as to the different sized speakers and different sound, i was quoting brash

LudlamTheory

ALL coloration is distortion, any variance from the originlly intended signal is considered distortion. your referring to coloration as an emphasis or a low or high end is a variance in frequency response. coloration = 2nd and 3rd order harmonic distortion.

brash

That is a very general understanding of distortion, and if you want to use that understanding, you can't then go on to say (as you did in your other post) that "distortion = function of a cheap speaker". In such a general sense, you can't even say that such distortion is always unwanted.

(Oddly enough this seems to be the opposite of my other reply to you about speaker size, where I am being too general, and you more specific.)

An emphasis on the low or high end is most definitely not second or third order harmonic distortion. And furthermore, an understanding of coloration as second and third order harmonic distortion is far from what you stated just coloration was above: "any variance from the originally intended signal."

I'd buy that coloration is distortion in a very general sense (i.e. one I would never actually use if I were talking with other audio people). But you can't say it is distortion in that sense, and also say it is only second and third order harmonic distortion!

J187

Ludlam referring to distortion as simply any variance from intended signal is what I was trying to point out in my previous post is confusing. Ludlam IS correct in his definition, but its not exactly the definition most are in line with. When talking in forums made up of people will little to moderate understanding with a few well versed, I always try to consider how most perceive terms. In this case, its important to remember that most consider distortion along the lines of severe frequency overload, odd ordered Harmonics etc. IE a very unpleasant and quite noticable difference in sound. People percieve things differently and sometimes its hard to realize. If you told Celine Dion that her mic was distorting, she'd probably freak. If you told Jason Everman (Nirvana) that his guitar was distorting he'd probably say, no ****. For the record, Brash's definition of coloration is exactly what I've had in mind this whole time. Anyway, Back to the subject at hand. The Koda sounds like a good choice, I think you'd be just as happy with either. To answer your question, don't even consider putting the Koda in without sound deadening. don't worry about the weight it adds, if you're concerened with THAT amount of weight being added, you should probably take laxitives before you head out on the road. JK. Seriously though, take some time and dynomat - its not hard or all that time consuming. Good luck.

Jason

faultyscrew

I've been thinking of Dynomat for a while and I think I'll do it as well since it's not all too hard. I think I'm going with the Koda's but perhaps I'm going to swtich amps for the midrange and mid-bass drivers. I may use the PG X100.2 for the mid-bass and get a Zapco from my local shop. I've heard some of the Zapco's in cars and they are crystal clear - not that my PG isn't but it's a thought. Should I Dynomat the entire car or maybe just the panels for now? I'm thinking of doing some sound dampening to the kicks as well.

WhiteRabbit

for a daily driver, my philosophy is to deaden only what resonates, and pad what rattles.

I dont see a need to add sound deadener to the entire car, if the rear quarter panels vibrating doesnt hurt the quality of my sound. (for example.)

but if im getting some echoes off the back of my door skin interferring with the cone motion of my midrange, I'll move heaven and earth if I have to to get that out!

faultyscrew

^That makes sense to me. I will most definately be deadening the panels. Also - I was looking into some alternatives to the Koda just so I make sure I look at the other options.

Image Dynamics CX Series
RE XXX 6.5 - just the midbass driver if I could buy it that way. I can't find a link to it now as it appears the site is down.

Anyone have any thoughts on these?

LudlamTheory

id still take the koda over those
the re driver you WONT be able to fit in a door, and i believe its designed for sealed kickpanel enclosures anyways

faultyscrew

^Hmmm - I thought there might be problems with the RE driver - I wasn't really too sure and I couldn't find much information about it. The only real contender I feel is the Image Dynamics CX Series driver. I'm going down to my local shop next week and I'm going to ask to hear if he has them installed on any of his vehicles or employees vehicles. If I'm unimpressed I'll go with the Koda's. If they sound good and he wants to give me a good deal on the IMD's then I'll have to re-think a bit. I'll tell you how it goes!

doubledeuce2k2

iTrader: (20)

find some old IDQ 6's. i wanted some of those pretty bad for awhile

WhiteRabbit

how deep are those RE's?

LudlamTheory

dont know, theyre not out yet, but they do do 13 mm's linear each way with xbl^2
im guessing theyre at least 4"