harvichi

I am building some kick pods and I'm at the stage for imaging. The amp that I was sent from the company was a defect so a new one is on the way . My question is: Can I still start imaging my components while using another amp? Just wanted to know just in case I image with one amp then when I get my new amp back and the imaging sounds different .

WhiteRabbit

absolutely. imaging is a factor of spekaer position only. so you can stick any mids in there and any amp to image them, and youll get the same image afterwards, after upgrade.

one possible exception is if you image with coaxials, then upgrade to components, and now have to position the tweeters. otherwise, it'll be the same.

dont skimp on teh imaging! if it takes 6 months to do it right, do it! over time, the tendancy is to get tired of rebuilding pods over and over and over agian, to dial in the image....

LudlamTheory

also sir, you may also have issues with the bottom of the dash causing reflections. i highly reccomend you add some carpeting or padding or some such thing to the underside of the dash.

Rufus

iTrader: (17)

velvet works well to help on imaging under the dash. In addition, there are different objects under the drivers as the passenger. The passengers has the AC unit.

harvichi

Thanks for the help.

I have the 1999 Iasac competition CD to use to try and image the system. Do you recommend just listening to as much music as i can to see if the imaging is correct or just stick to the Iasac CD?

faultyscrew

I would do both - try to listen to music that was produced well in the studio. If you listen to a recording that was produced poorly it may not be the best recording for imaging. At my local shop they do some great imaging work and tried showing me the difference between just sticking the components in the door or building pods for em - we listened to a lot of competition stuff however we did listen to other music - only music that was produced well in the studio and can create a good image - one such is Norah Jones - you may not like her music but the production of the album is outstanding and may really help with imaging. That's my 2 cents

MegaHurtz

iTrader: (6)

Another question... How exactly DO you image a system?

harvichi

Great read for some theory and setup

Physical and Acoustic problems affecting Sound Quality in a Car

Just a couple of articles I have been using. If anyone finds anymore I would love to give them a read over.

Rufus

iTrader: (17)

enya would work as well. IASCA discs usually have a few different genres ofmusic on them as samples.

faultyscrew

Yeah - just make sure your test your system with a song that was produced well in the studio - any competition discs will be fine - imaging is a tough thing to do - don't give up!

WhiteRabbit

to those who use the audionutz system, (which I highly, highly reccommend) dont follow his advice about not worrying about stage height while imaging. height is definitely important! so if the system centers well, but sits low, you can expect it to always sit low, no matter what you do to tuning.

three things I wished I had imaged while building my kickpanels:

center
height
positional transparrency

that last one will be difficult without rear wave separation, but if you jsut do the best you can, it should be fine.

remember the speaker doesnt have to be pointing in a standard direction to achieve an amazing stage! you could even point hte speaker toward the firewall, and get improved imaging! if the speaker fires down, but the height, depth is perfect, it centers on both sides of the vehicle, then thats the direction you want to fire, even though its wierd as hell to fire that way!

MegaHurtz

iTrader: (6)

What do you mean by the audionutz system?

MegaHurtz

iTrader: (6)

Good point on the firing of speakers, I've thought about mounting my tweeters on the dash away from me to get the distance between them proper, you could probably even center it pretty good that way too if you worked hard enough...

WhiteRabbit

one of teh best cars I have heard, staging wise, is a 80's BMW 3 series.

the tweeters are in the A-pillars, pointed nearly directly at each other, not forward or back at all.

the drivers kick fires to the side. not up, down, forward, or back.

the passenger kick points forward slightly, and is tilted up slightly. so wierd!

but the imaging is so awesome. It would be ludicrous to think these positions WILL work in our cars, but I think the point is pretty good. speaker positions can get pretty wierd, but have an amazing image.

WhiteRabbit

or you wanna talk REALLY wierd, theres a local car using stock midbass locations with the tweeters in the doors up high, it images better than the bimmer does!

even the SQ judges were saying what the heck and scratching their heads about that one! the car took first in every show it went to, though.....

faultyscrew

^Interesting - never heard of that before

MegaHurtz

iTrader: (6)

Are you by chance a judge or SQ competitor?

harvichi

I currently still have my stock tweaters in their pods, but not hooked up. Would it be worth it to use them as a set of secondary tweaters (main tweats in the kick pods) to raise the height of the stage? or are they to poor quality tweaters that would ruin the sound quality of the system?

Oh and Rufus good call on the Enya, seems like she has some good CD's for imaging.

WhiteRabbit

just a competitor. and not a very good one, at that!

fortunately, my car has been making massive progress in the install area, and the sq greats that were sandbagging novice class are moving up to pro. we'll see what I can do this season, first show is the 7th.

tweets up high, there are potential benefits, and potential problems. best thing to do is to try it and see how it affects your imaging. might be a massive help!

82801BA

I am running seperates using Q-Form and the seperation is severe below 250Hz......
I didn't actually test the freq, but it have both 2-way and 3-way setup so that when I disconnect the door woofer(6"), the mid in kick that plays 250 and up are perfect in height and width(not depth).
Either 2 way or 3 way have the same problem below 250Hz. Any suggestion?

WhiteRabbit

speaker positioning is everything to staging. its caused by one of two problems.

#1 cancellations caused by improper selection of crossover frequencies or speaker position. if its speaker position, you cna try to make a spacer thats angled to help raise the stage. if its cancellation, try underlapping the frequencies and letting the natural rolloff bring the response back up flat. that worked wonders in my car.

#2 in our cars its real easy to create a sinkhole of response from 200 to 400 Hz, and it gives the illusion of no lower midbass and upperbass. you might have to boost up this region; an RTA would help, or a tone disc and rat shack meter.

i guess it could be something else, but when I was running door midbasses, I had the exact same problem. Rather than tune it out, I just removed the drivers entirely. But im sure you can fix it.

alex053

iTrader: (9)

i have also seen many competitor use two sets of tweets...

alot of kicks will have a rainbow type freq response when ploted...with tweets up high and crossed over very high you can raise your stage at the higher freqs where kicks alone will roll off.

82801BA

Here's my configuration, just for reference and see if you find something wrong:

3-way speaker set(Alpine SPX-F17T):
All freq are approximated cutoff freq.
Tweeter HP, 12dB/Oct@4k
Mid LP, 12dB/Oct@2.2k
Mid HP, Semi-6dB/Oct@2.2k
Woofer LP, Semi-6dB/Oct@100

Woofer in door, tweeter and mid in Q-form

And also a tweeter on sail panel(same spec as the set), 6dB/Oct@12.5k

It seems like reversing the passenger side woofer makes the stage a lot better, but at the same time the midbass suffers.

82801BA

The HP of mid and LP of woofer are selectable.
Woofer LP cutoff, 100Hz or 250Hz.
Mid HP cutoff depends on the level at 2.2k.

But I've heard that a flat freq higher than 150Hz on door will kill the stage though....

irishtemper

very interesting stuff here.

FALKEN

iTrader: (55)

not sure why this was in the Lighting forum...moved to the I.C.E. & Electrical forum

82801BA

I've been working with imaging for over a year and couldn't get a correct answer....

82801BA

Now I've raised the door midbass driver and let it roll down from 200Hz and then midrange kicks in.
Same effect.

WhiteRabbit

http://forum.elitecaraudio.com/showt...threadid=98293

this should help your phase and staging setup. build the kicks to center properly, to have solid center, left-center, right-center locations at least ******** height if not eye level, with no rainbow effect, and this tuning tutorial will bring it all up to proper locations

82801BA

Does it do good on ACTIVE only? Or it works on PASSIVE also?