vtecdoc

I was wondering if everyones seems to wiggle verey easily, I cant think of anyway to make it any tighter,and it sure doesn't seem like it could do to much the way it is. any info would be helpful

C2i0v0i1C

iTrader: (2)

tighten every nut thats on the thing

Amphiprion

Check the bolt that connects the bar, to the ring that bolts to the car.

vtecdoc

Well what I mean is everything is tight but if you push on it with you r hands it moves really easy, feels kinda like its bending or something, I was just wondering if everyone elses feels that way. I have always had a little play with some of the ones on my other cars but not quite this much. Just let me know.

Bartkat

My AC front and rear bars have abosolutely no play, no movement. They have those length adjusting threads that have to be set prior to bolting it down, and then the locking nuts tightened. It should be tight enough that the hinge bolts (the ones that attach the bar to the rings) can't be reomoved without loosening the 3 strut attachment nuts, at least on one side.

ALLMAN

iTrader: (2)

I did not buy the DC Sports bar for that very reason...I felt it was an overpriced poor design!!!!. now I'm not saying that it is a piece of crap...the material is of high quality....just a poor design![IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]

vtecdoc

Yeah I agree with the desighn part of it, but at the time it was the only one I could find that would clear my intake, I tried 3

Bartkat

So it's not length adjustable?

Macfay

iTrader: (4)

I have this sturt bar too.....
i was disappointed once i got it installed....
the design(not the outlook though) really bad......
the neuspeed one is much better......

Bartkat

Autodynamic has a "noname" bar that is narrow enough to clear an AEM intake. It's cheap too.

VNlilMAN

iTrader: (7)

whats the point of a stut bar if it's moves? isn't the whole point of a strut bar to prevent the chasis from bending? how is it supposed to do that if the bar itself bends?

Grey

iTrader: (61)

Guys! C'mon! You're trying to make it move up and down. That's not the way the forces work. They're trying to make it compress length-wise. Try to make it move length-wise. You can't! It's stable. I torqued mine down to spec and I adjusted the nut on the end to make it fit very snugly. I test drove it and it's a definate improvement. There's this one turn that I take all the time and I usually take it at 40mph comfortably. This time I took it at 50mph comfortably. The steering response it much improved and the whole front end feels stiffer when turning and when doing over bumps.

Oh yeah, this one dude had the DC Sports, bought the Neuspeed (after hearing what people said on the forums), and then switched back to DC Sports. He said the DC Sports performed much better. It's because of him that I chose to go with the DC Sports. I don't regret my decision either. He said that he could hardly feel any improvement with the Neuspeed, but that the DC Sports was right on the money.

Bartkat

I trust what Grey says about the DC bar.

I don't like the Neuspeed simply based on the design and the way it attaches. Might be good on some cars and not good on others.

I got the impression from some of the remarks that their bar was moving from end to end. I think theie should be an adjustment for that. Like anything else, these can be improperly installed. If the bar is installed the way it was intended it's going to work.

I, personally prefer my AC bars, but I have not compared with DC so I can't say one is better than the other. Installation of the AC rear upper bar made the biggest difference for me, since our Civics are a bit soft in the rear suspension.

If you have to choose between the Neuspeed and DC in order to clear an aftermarket intake, I would defintely get the DC.

ALLMAN

iTrader: (2)

Grey,

Given the performance ability of our cars..meaning not a WRX or otherwise.....all these bars are fine...."BUT"....I am a structural material engineer...and I'm telling you, that the bar is a poor design....no, the forces generated under normal driving conditions will not push the bar past allowable working loads .....but if I tested each one on these availabe bars in a lab under controlled conditions....the DC bar would fail first in my opinion under buckling (bending) due to a number of variables......I know we've discussed this..and really, in the overall picture doesn't mean much..if your happy,,,...then thats what counts....but I giving my "PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERING" opinion..Peace bro!

Bartkat

Of course the stiffness of the bar is important. I got the impression from some posts that the DC just plain didn't fit tightly and there was some looseness along the axis.

I think the "strut bars" may see some torsional stress as well, considering that the unibody is trying to twist as well as flex under certain driving conditions.

"If it ain't tight, it ain't right".

But I am a fibers engineer and I am used to stretching and breaking samples for tenacity and elongational properties. Bending modulus and flex resistance is important in our final product.

bluecoupe

vtecdoc, i know exactly what you're talking about. after your dc bar is installed if you push downn on the dc logo part of the bar, it will give. but this is not the force the bar is meant to resist. the bar does move like that as a result of the joint on one end of the bar to adjust the length.

if you imagine a z-axis running through the sunroof and your shifter, the bar is meant to resist movement of one strut tower in the positive z direction and movement of the other strut tower in the negative z directition (aka chassis movement). if you imagine a y axis connecting the tops of your two front strut towers, pushing down on the bar causes rotation about this y axis, however this does not occur during driving, therefore the bar doesn't have to resist that force. the only force the bar resists is that of rotation about an x axis if you imagine the x axis running from front honda H emblem to rear honda H emblem.

allman?

Grey

iTrader: (61)

This is the way I see it:



The red vectors denote the most likely direction of the forces that are exerted on the strut bar (in any case we want to limit chassis flex in this direction). The blue vectors denote the twisting force that is exerted on the strut bar by the red vectors. That's the way the forces play out. If one were to apply these same forces in a laboratory to the DC Sports strut bar and the Neuspeed strut bar then I'm almost positive that the DC Sports strut bar would perform better.

It would take either experiments, a good mathematical model, or a computer model to really show what is going on with both designs. It might be the case that there are forces at work might depend on other factors that we're not taking into consideration. It might be the case that each strut bar performs differently when we take these other factors into consideration. Factors such as lateral acceleration and road texture could come into play.

Anyway, I'm not going on this technical mumbo-jumbo simply because this problem is too time consuming to solve theoretically. I'm going by what was said by someone who compared both designs side by side. I've taken physics for two years and that included mechanics and dynamics, so I know what it takes to solve such a problem. I would love to have three dimentional models of these strut bars, their material properties, and the direction, magnitude, and frequency of the forces that are applied to them. I could then build a computer model of what is happening and tell you exactly how each strut bar reacts to these forces. Anyway, I'm KISSing the problem.

ALLMAN

iTrader: (2)

Your modeling is wrong grey....and I will model this at work for you as I have the computer software available....your free-body diagram doesn't take into accouint the cross sectional area (A-d^2)..second moment of inertia...and where your slenderness ratio L/D is weak...your thinking in 2D....diagraming in 2D....and should model in 3D...plus the elbows would generatel massive high stress regions...and the failure point most likely.....yes a lot of material and engineering mombo-jumbo...one at which I will solve at work......peace bro![IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG].....BTW....I'm not arguing...but I do enjoy a good difference in opinons and debate, so no disrespect in yours!!

rhyno

Exactly. The movement that you are talking about is only a slight "turning" due to the bearings. It is minimal and in no way effects its purpose. It doesn't actually move up and down, it is a minute rotation.

PerfectD3

Finally, this is exactly what this board should be about. Two sides standing up for a particular issue, and actaully stating something that relates.

ALLMAN: Would like to see what you come up with.

Bartkat

One thing about it, if you break one of those bars, you will be taking your car to a guy that has a unibody frame straightening machine.

ALLMAN

iTrader: (2)

I would just like to point out again....that all these bars will function just mine and probably could not differentiate in "NORMAL" driving conditions between any of them....but for the sake of "arguing",...which I like to do....to "TAG" the best design under lab controlled conditions.....is my point here!..Peace guys!

BAK

Hey guys.. got a question for those who have the DC Sports Strut Tower bar. How much thread is showing, if any, on the nuts attaching it to the top of the strut tower. I can't see any thread at the top in fact it looks as if the threads of the studs only use about 3/4's of the nut. That's my biggest concern is that only 3/4's of the nut is holding thread.

Bartkat

<< I would just like to point out again....that all these bars will function just mine and probably could not differentiate in "NORMAL" driving conditions between any of them....but for the sake of "arguing",...which I like to do....to "TAG" the best design under lab controlled conditions.....is my point here!..Peace guys! >>



I think I would design the bar to flex or break before the car body itself got into a permanent twist.

Bartkat

<< Hey guys.. got a question for those who have the DC Sports Strut Tower bar. How much thread is showing, if any, on the nuts attaching it to the top of the strut tower. I can't see any thread at the top in fact it looks as if the threads of the studs only use about 3/4's of the nut. That's my biggest concern is that only 3/4's of the nut is holding thread. >>



You mean the three nuts on each side that hold the strut in place?

BAK

Yes, that's them. I'm only getting about 3/4's of the nut to engage the studs. As if the mounting plate on the Bar is too thick to allow full engagement of the nut. I believe, that there should be 1 full thread showing above the top of the nut to maximize the holding power of the nut.

Bartkat

Yeah I have threads showing with my AC bars. Is the bracket pulled all the way down to the metal? I think Grey says the torque should be 44 Ft Lbs. Do you have the nuts turned down really tight? I guess Grey could answer better since he has the DC bar.

BAK

Yeah.. They should be good and torqued. About 215 lbs of me and a 12" socket wrench. I bought a torque wrench for my lugs, I ought to check the torque tomorrow.

By the way, nice car ! I like the way the OEM kit looks on the White Coupes ! You just don't see many Taffeta Whites running around, that's why I got mine. Got a $1300 performance sharing bonus coming next paycheck. Haven't decided on the OEM body kit or cat-back and lowering springs.

Grey

iTrader: (61)

I just took a picture:

Bartkat

Here is what I would do. Loosen up all the bolts that hold the rings to the towers. Make sure the rings will lay flat without tightening any nuts. If you have to adjust the length of the bar longer, do it. Then when you tighten the nuts, just snug them down. Then turn each nut a little and keep going that way in a criss cross pattern. Don't tighten one bolt all the way first is what I am saying. Keep tightening a little at a time till they are all pretty tight. Then touque in a similar pattern and keep torquing until all 3 nuts are no longer turning at the specified torque.

I think that is the best you will get it. After all 6 are torqued, then tighen up the locking or adjusting nuts.

I'm not sure how that part is made, but that should work.

Thanks. I like the OEM kit and there are good deals on them. Plus they come already painted. I have Prokit springs ordered, then hope to get Tokico Illumina shocks when they come out. That kit did a lot for the looks of the Civic.