Rep Power: 0

Hello, my name's Michael and I'd like to ask a simple question, but in a complicated way: What type of AC parts should I buy? Parts I'm considering: the compressor, drier, expansion valve, condenser, and low-pressure valve.

I'm not necessarily looking for OEM. I'd like a system that uses low horsepower (scroll type compressor), has decent cooling, and will last for three or four years. I plan to do all of the AC work except probably evacuating, flushing, and recharging.

I'm looking at a Denso compressor: (DEN 4711420) from Napa (302$),
An Everco drier (33595) from Autozone (23$),
and I'm not sure about the expansion valve or condenser.

Is there any way I could test the expansion valve or condenser, or are they even likely to be clogged up by the stop leak? Also, is there a huge quality/durability difference for the condenser or expansion valve (OEM vs Aftermarket)? ANY advice you have, or even references to parts you've used and their outcome, would be appreciated.


Background: the AC controls work, the system has previously had stop-leak in it, my previous mechanic vented it instead of evacuating like I paid him for (I'm not sure if it's 'completely' empty). I'm a college student who's really good with mechanic work, but doesn't own a lot of tools. My goal is to finish all repairs on this once-junker so that I can start paying my loans off...I want this AC system to last me for three or four years, and I have a strong distaste for used/remanufactured parts from being burned in the past (old ford escort I had). Parts I'm considering: The mechanic told me the compressor is burning out, which I saw no signs of until after he worked on it. He said the dryer was clogged. The compressor hasn't seized yet. I'm wondering if the stop leak is likely to have torn any extra parts up. The low-pressure valve began leaking after he drained it.

 
Rep Power: 518

You have a contaminated system.
Since I have no idea what sealant is in there, I have to say
Replace the ENTIRE system, all at the same time.
Any stop-leak that is left will have already been activated and is now waiting to screw up whatever parts you replace.


Used/salvage available?
A complete working undamaged system from another car would be my first choice if new wasn't available.

 
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It contains the "Leak Sealer" sold in EZ Chill freon bottles (one bottle: 3 ounces of oil, sealant, cleaner, and "performance booster" mixed together).

In the case that the whole system's contaminated, are there any tests to see if anything is salvageable?

Also...Are the aftermarket parts I mentioned likely to hold up for several years, or would any of them need to be OEM? Do I also need to consider an evaporator?

Thanks for the response

 
Rep Power: 518

It contains the "Leak Sealer" sold in EZ Chill freon bottles (one bottle: 3 ounces of oil, sealant, cleaner, and "performance booster" mixed together).

From here, I still can't tell what it is. There are 2 major types of sealers at this time that I am aware of: One will just swell the rubber parts, the other turns to a solid to clog leaks.

If the sealant was a "seal sweller" I suppose it could be flushed out with commercially available flushing solvents designed specifically for MVAC use. Any parts of a system that can't be reliably flushed would need replaced (multi-pass condensor, receiver-drier, etc.)

If the sealer is the type that solidifies to clog a leak, then I would say you definitely need an entire system. This stuff will turn everything to garbage as soon as it hits humidity in the air.



Either type of sealant can RUIN a professional AC machine, easily worth several thousand dollars. Probably more than your entire car.
A true professional would never use sealants to repair an AC system IMO. The true professional would perform the proper repairs.


In the case that the whole system's contaminated, are there any tests to see if anything is salvageable?

Depends.


Also...Are the aftermarket parts I mentioned likely to hold up for several years, or would any of them need to be OEM?

Yes, except for the compressor. Most of the AC system just needs keep the freon inside it, and transfer heat efficiently. The solid parts are mostly Aluminum.
My biggest problem with A/M is usually fitment. "Almost fits right" can (DOES) suck huge donkey *****.
Aftermarket rebuilt compressors are a crapshoot. Some get replaced annually because they leak so bad. BTDT.
Aftermarket hose materials could be a crapshoot too, they can be a leak source (when I said "complete system", I meant it).


You can't pick and choose your compressor either. It has to bolt on to the bracket already on the engine. The hose ports must be correct sizes and correct placement. These things are not universal.
OE says SANDEN for a 99 Civic (random 6th gen pick)
Dealer can get remans too.



Do I also need to consider an evaporator?

Again, it depends. Can it be flushed?
The sealer exists inside every last part of the system. Do you want it to ruin whatever parts you installed?


HTH

 
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If it helps any (unlikely), the leak sealer is described as "system-safe" and "safely seals most leaks on hoses, gaskets and o-rings". My dad put it in his car and then mine without me knowing (said he was adding freon). It seems pretty weak though, from reading people's comments about it.

A Denso aftermarket compressor would be a bad choice then? I can get a re-manufactured OEM, but I felt safer with a new product and thought Denso was a top brand (with Sanden, the OEM).

Also, I thought hoses could almost always be thoroughly flushed? The system holds pressure and has no corrosion. I'm planning to install new O-rings and an inline filter, to protect the compressor.

Anyway...my post's already a bit long, but back onto topic (I'm a researcher...it's what I'm best at). Here's what I've found as far as aftermarket parts go, should it be helpful to anyone else:

I did a scoring system based on buyer comments on amazon, to compare brand qualities. For the condenser:
TYC 11+ ("flawless", "leak-tested", "OEM for Honda"?) 1-
Delphi 6+ ("top knotch", "high quality") 2- ("Made in China"?)
ACDelco 1+ ("like original") -1 ("weaker metal")
Motorcraft 1+
Denso 1+
Spectra Premium 3- ("30 mins. of bending")

For the drier/accumulator, there were only good reviews for Four Seasons. NO bad reviews (as of yet), and many stated quality as being above OEM (not compared to Honda)
Four Seasons drier +++++

There is almost no information as far as how long compressors lasted (online).
Same for evaporatore cores...almost no information. (mixed good/bad reviews for Four Seasons, and mention that all aftermarket brands have the same manufacturer, who makes them in China). Has anyone had experience with non-OEM evaporator cores?

If anyone wants me to, I'll continue to update this list as I research other components.

 
Rep Power: 518

Answer me this:
"The system holds pressure and has no corrosion" and "My dad put it in his car and then mine without me knowing (said he was adding freon)."

Now why in the hell would your dad need to add freon to it if "the system holds pressure" (does not leak?)?










If it helps any (unlikely), the leak sealer is described as "system-safe"

Hype. The goal of this hype is to get someone to spend their money. Mission accomplished.


and "safely seals most leaks on hoses, gaskets and o-rings".

Sounds like seal sweller.








A Denso aftermarket compressor would be a bad choice then?

I guess it would be fine if it fits correctly and works in your application.


I can get a re-manufactured OEM, but I felt safer with a new product and thought Denso was a top brand (with Sanden, the OEM).

These different companies all built the units when they were new.
WHO is rebuilding them now? Four Seasons? Wynns? A-1 Cardont?

Bla bla bla...


Another question:
"The mechanic told me the compressor is burning out, which I saw no signs of until after he worked on it. He said the dryer was clogged. The compressor hasn't seized yet. I'm wondering if the stop leak is likely to have torn any extra parts up. The low-pressure valve began leaking after he drained it."

What is really wrong with this AC system here?

You have a system that "holds pressure", but now it "leaks from the low-pressure valve", and your dad added freon in the beginning WHY?

And an ***** that has been working on it, apparently.

Did this system not work for some unknown (but probably simple) reason in the beginning, and now that everyone has touched it, it is FUBAR?

 
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Sorry if I insulted you somehow. I'm trying to solve the situation and help anyone else in the future...

Since I was somewhat confusing before, here's a more in-order backstory.

I bought my car less than a year ago, and spent all my money fixing the torn CV axles/flat tires it came with. My dad put the freon in it, saying it was cheap (his way of thanking me for some labor). Recently, after redoing the freddy-kruger'd interior and installing other necessary parts, I finally had money to take it to the mechanic. The first time he misunderstood me or something, but did the wrong work. Last time he said he found the clog, which was in the drier (I was very specific this time). He said the compressor is on it's way out, as it turns slower than the belt (I was thinking clutch issues). He said he pressure tested it, and it held pressure. He freshly installed R134a like I did not want him to. I wanted it empty, so I paid him to evacuate it. He proceeded to drain through the low side port using a pocket knife...I won't be going to him again. The low side port leaks now when I unscrew the cap, but I have no clue how much is still in there.

Thank you for your help, and once again I'm sorry. I really appreciate your help.

Addition: I found more info on the EZ Chill stuff. You're dead-on: it only swells the O-rings.

 
Rep Power: 518

Sorry if I insulted you somehow.

You didn't.
I'm the one that does the insulting.
If you followed my history, you'd know that already.



My dad put the freon in it, saying it was cheap (his way of thanking me for some labor).

So, you still aren't clear here: Did the AC work -- or not -- prior to your dad "thanking you"?


What would a competent professional have to say after evaluating your AC system and seeing what it would take to make it work again?

Maybe this could have more value than you just replacing a bunch of parts and wild guesses on my part.

I'm really wondering if the system will still work as-is with just a recharge and maybe some minor work.
I still have no idea if it ever worked, nor why your dad stuck his fingers in it.
And what the original problem was, if there was one.

take it to the mechanic. The first time he misunderstood me or something, but did the wrong work. Last time he said he found the clog, which was in the drier (I was very specific this time). He said the compressor is on it's way out,

As I roll my eyes.......

as it turns slower than the belt (I was thinking clutch issues).

HOLD IT. WHAT?

See where I used the word ***** in the previous post?

IF your dad overcharged the system by adding unnecessary freon, I could understand slippage due to extremely high pressure.

If the "mechanic" couldn't figure this out, then you need to find a competent professional that has and uses the proper equipment.
Or ANY equipment.

Fair warning:
Some of us may tell you to pound sand once we figure out the system is contaminated.
Some of us may have equipment to protect our equipment, so we can go ahead and service the car regardless.

Some of us value our certifications and licenses.
Those without tend to not care about proper methods.

He said he pressure tested it, and it held pressure. He freshly installed R134 like I did not want him to. I wanted it empty, so I paid him to evacuate it.


He proceeded to drain through the low side port using a pocket knife

I would report this clown to the EPA for open discharge of an AC systemand blatant disregard for the law.$30k per offense.


...I won't be going to him again. The low side port leaks now when I unscrew the cap, but I have no clue how much is still in there.

The service valve can be replaced by itself as long as the threads aren't damaged and it will unscrew. It is usually a Schrader valve, much like a tire valve but made specifically for AC/freon. Available at most parts stores, and it had BETTER be labeled for AC use. You will need a tool for replacing it, and the freon needs to be empty to do it safely.

Parts stores that cater to regular shops would probably have a selection, like this:





Thank you for your help, and once again I'm sorry. I really appreciate your help.

YW
Wow, I'm surprised I didn't rant on and on about this. Yet.


EDIT: I didn't see your edit when I wrote all this out.

 
Rep Power: 0

The system did not work when I originally bought the car. I don't remember the exact symptoms, but the air was coming out only slightly cool (like regular air blown by a fan). Its cooling was questionable at best.

There were no noticeable noises under the hood, except for my engine and belts running (no squeals). After my dad added the freon, the high pressure side burned him and the low pressure side read high pressure (very cheap gauge). The compressor had a light chirp, which I thought was probably the belt. I always left the AC off after that, to avoid possibly damaging the compressor.

Recently I took my car to the mechanic to drain it, find any clogs, and inspect it. I'm not completely sure he drained it originally and recharged it, but he said he did. I know he did with the pocketknife because I saw him that time. (also, I remember seeing UV dye leak out, so at the very least I know he added dye). The compressor now makes a very loud belt screech (only when running, not disengaged).


I agree with you 100% about finding a real mechanic. I'm having a hard time finding any good mechanics around here now...I'm slowly becoming distrusting of the local guys. Also, the prices I've seen (100$/hr and up) seem like the inspection would cost more than most of the repair, whereas each new part would probably ensure it's working better.

 
Rep Power: 518

Screech (in my mind, without seeing it myself) would be a belt slipping because of either the belt is too loose, and/or the compressor is locked up (or trying to lock).
OR the alternator belt slipping because of all the additional electrical load when the AC runs.

Would be interesting to watch system pressures while this is going on. And check the belt tension.


The shop I work at--labor is posted $110/hr.
For that price, if you don't know who to ask for, you could get the rocket scientist or the oil changer/floor mopper.
Because anyone with a shoebox full of tools has the exact same abilities and talents.
(That's a dig at average management mentality.) The cheapest labor gets the first crack at it in many shops.

Where are you located?

 
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I live somewhat close to Memphis, TN, so I expect there are probably at least a couple decent AC mechanics around here. No luck finding them though.

The AC belt does not seem loose, although I'm about to change out the alternator belt because it's old/fairly loose.


As far as the frequency of the screech, it did it about three times for a couple of seconds each time (I ran it about a minute before realizing it wasn't another car).

 
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Update and questions:

I finally found a decent mechanic around here. He offers no warranty though and charges 94$ an hour. I got him to change the drier, evac/flush/fill, inspect the system, and drain it again.

He confirmed that the compressor is going bad (metal shavings in drier), and told me the expansion valve is clogged...my guess is the condenser and evaporator core are probably somewhat clogged too.

So, for my question, is the evaporator core a design which can be flushed, or is it just like the condenser? The mechanic didn't recommend either one, and said the system would run "cold as *****" if I changed the compressor and expansion valve. Would changing either the condenser or evaporator core be worth it? (and which would effect it more...guessing the condenser).

 
Rep Power: 518

Compressor sends metal shavings into the condensor. Metal has now made it THROUGH the condensor, and gone on downstream into the next item, IIRC the drier, and that should have its own filter.

You will have to see if there is debris in the expansion valve. Maybe it is only stuck closed, not really clogged with debris. If no solids there, I'd assume the evap is at least clear enough to flow. An air gun check would confirm this once the expansion valve is off.

Look into R-141b (I think) for a flush solvent.

You really have to figure out how much -- and how far -- debris and/or residue has gone through the system.



I looked at a CRV yesterday, the compressor is rattling like there is no tomorrow, and can't pump anymore.
It sent metal through the condensor.
The drier and screen has metal in it.
Q-Tip test some of the other parts of the system:
The rest of the system has black residue all through it.
That is enough to condemn the entire system.
The black residue stuff contains abrasives that would eventually ruin a new compressor.
The only way a repair will be guaranteed is to replace the complete system in this case.
No, it is not cheap, but it will be guaranteed, and it will work properly for a long time. The owner may cry about the price, but he will have cold, trouble free AC.

 
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There was a tiny amount black residue in the high pressure line going to the expansion valve. How much would likely cause an issue? By very tiny I mean it wouldn't fully cover a Q-tip (got it medium-light grey).

Is that enough that would warrant inspecting further down the system, and would you suggest changing the evaporator because of that? I plan on having it flushed a second time after installing everything.

 
Rep Power: 518

Mine was just black, no question. Manager agreed with me, do the whole thing or none at all.


This is the only link I could find on the CRV bulletin that has the contamination checks.
http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SB/A09-076.PDF

I would think that if a flush can be done on the evaporator, it should be ok if all the residue comes clean. Same for all of the piping that you aren't replacing.

 
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Using your Q-tip test, I'm thinking the system's clean enough to keep the old evaporator. The hoses are spotless between the evaporator outlet and the compressor (tested both sides). The inlet to the evaporator just barely greyed the Q-tip, light enough for me to question whether my fingers did it instead.

As far as leading to the evaporator, the connecting point halfway between the condenser and evaporator was medium-light grey, as I mentioned before. In the ~2 feet of line between there and the evaporator, most of the dirt had faded. It makes me wonder how much dirt is where the condenser ends or in the bottom loop of the lines.

I guess my last question before starting is, would it be possible to thoroughly flush the metal AC lines using Dura II and no air gun/compressor? Right now I'm debating between paying $150 for a vacuum/flush/recharge, or buying Dura II and either renting or buying a vaccum pump. Then using a postage scale and a can of R134a

 
Rep Power: 518

I bet if you can find oil in the system, it will be dark. The oil can keep debris in suspension.....The oil collects at the low spots in the system until there is sufficient flow to move the oil.



You need compressed air to pressurize the solvent canister for flushing, if this is like the setup I used to use....Half gallon or a gallon jug of solvent, and a skinny aluminum canister with a hose on it for flushing.

Solvent is used to get the debris to move by dissolving it into solution... You have to get all of it to move on out of the part you are flushing, that's what the compressed air is for. To purge all the nasty stuff out. And to dry it out.



I'm going to say DIY it unless you have someone that you can seriously trust with the AC work. You have a specific need for a specific operation, and most ordinary places/people are not going to really do what you want or need.

Vacuum pump is a separate operation, to evacuate the system before charging. Evacuating the system into a deep vacuum boils water out.


HTH

 
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Hey guys, I just bought a 00 Civic EX and the A/C doesn't work. I found out there was a big *** hole on the compressor body, so I bought a new one. When I was taking apart the system, I saw black residue in the piping and used a Q tip and found metal shavings in the dryer. I have no clue what happened to the compressor(the metal enclosure literally exploded or something, the internal parts are exposed through a 2" window), but I think the system is bad or contaminated. Can I just flush out the condenser, evaporator, and the piping?

 
Rep Power: 518

In my experience, the compressors usually explode after the system had lost significant amounts of oil.

You need the compressor, the condensor, and the drier to start with. Probably some of the lines too, any that have rubber hoses crimped to metal tubing since they can trap metal particles.

Find out if metal or dark residue got past the drier.

At the shop I would replace everything from the compressor to the farthest point that metal got, plus evaluate the residue. If the residue is dark and got past the filtration point (drier in this case) then the rest of the system gets replaced. It's the only way I would guarantee the repair.


Read the rest of my replies in that thread.

HTH

 
Rep Power: 0

I've read the replies because I found this thread through search; thanks for the info.

IIRC, there was black residue in both holes of the dryer, so I assumed it got through. I already bought a compressor and dryer because I thought it was an easy repair, but good thing I went online to read more info because I found black residue in the pipings. Is it possible to just flush the piping, or metals trapped between the hose and metal crimp really can't be flushed out?

 
Rep Power: 518

The filter inside the drier SHOULD have trapped the larger solid metal pieces there within the drier. Any that got past the drier would have to be pretty darn tiny, like the powdered metal residue.


The dark residue gets all throughout the system because it is carried along in the oil stream. Oil is constantly flowing through the entire system as it operates, the freon carries it.
A flush chemical used as intended will probably remove the vast majority of it.
Solid metal particles might not get completely removed during a flush, they would still be free to move around later on and cause havoc within the system.

You can't see where they are hiding, IF they are hiding. It's a risk that YOU take.
I can't afford to take that risk on a paying customer.



The dark residue is powdered metal that came from the compressor grinding itself to death. There can also be other stuff in the system, like melted teflon from the seals in the compressor.....the teflon melted in the compressor and moved into the condensor where it stuck to the walls as it cooled off.

If you don't replace the condensor: Once the system operates again and everything gets heated with normal operation, that teflon that was solidified and trapped when it was cold becomes free to keep moving on down the line once it gets heated again. Once moving, it can release even more metal particles. It can move on downstream to cause more havoc. It results in continued plugging of filters and orifices.
Normal flush methods cannot remove this contamination from a condensor.

This solid metal/teflon goo stuff normally doesn't get as far as the evaporator, but the dark residue does.

The dark residue (powdered metal) is an abrasive that can damage the new compressor.
There are commercially available filter screens that are designed to trap particles before they reach the compressor to cause damage.....These screens would not be able to trap and filter the powdered residue, but they should trap larger solids.

This is one version that I was thinking of, but it looks like it won't fit a 7th

An auto parts store that caters to the GOOD shops should have more info about this.
A parts store that is open on Sunday probably wouldn't have anyone employed there that cares enough to know. (And this pic came from the DangerZone site.)

YOU can try almost anything YOU want to. YOU have to live with any subsequent failure of YOUR system. I don't.

When I do it at work, I'm the one on the hook if it goes sour. Therefore, if there is ANY question, it gets replaced.

Just like I can't afford cheap tools, I also can't afford to cheap out on repairs.


Did that answer the question? I have a comprehension problem LOL.

HTH

 
Rep Power: 0

Wow, thanks for all the info. This is like one of most informative thread I've read in a while on forums.

Before I replace the whole system, does the expansion valve go too? So basically anything related to the A/C system(that has freon/oil going through) needs to be replaced?

 
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Well at this point I'm waiting for the rest of my parts to come in. I'm considering what type of PAG oil to buy though. I know it uses PAG 46 (original is SP-10, which is a double-end capped PAG 46 oil and apparently not sold anymore).

Anyway, I'm debating between the uncapped pag oil sold local, or Johnsen's double end cap pag oil sold online (with UV dye). I know double-end cap is better, but I'm not sure if that's a legitimate brand. Any suggestions?


Btw, I'm still thinking I'll DIY this, and I found very light spots with residue leading to the compressor. I'm planning to place a filter there. (replacing high side lines).


For Fear: The expansion valve is one of the first things to clog. It's a tiny opening that sprays a controlled mist of freon. Apparently non-flushable.

 
Rep Power: 518

A factory compressor should come with enough oil to supply a complete system, use that and you should have no other worries about oil.

Most aftermarket compressors come empty, but you need to inspect each one to be sure so you don't over-oil or under-oil the system when you assemble it.
If you are going with a reman aftermarket unit, contact the rebuilder and use whatever oil they say to use, and DOCUMENT THIS every step of the way. You may need it later on when you need warranty on the junk reman.


PAG oil for Civics
1993-2012
SP-10 (120 ml) 38897-P13-A01AH



I really don't know what is available in the aftermarket.
---------------------------------------------------
I was positive that I had answered this the other day, I guess I missed it
Yes.
And yes.
It is an internal part of the system.
I hate to have to do a job over again for free.

 
Rep Power: 0

I've just bought all the A/C lines, condenser, evaporator, and expansion valve(came with evap). I have a rebuilt compressor that uses ester oil, but I'm pretty sure the evaporator with the expansion valve has some PAG oil inside it(some leaked out). I'm going to flush all the components that I've bought, but I was wondering if a small trace of PAG, especially from the evap, will screw up the system if the compressor uses ester?

 
Rep Power: 518

Damn, I haven't had to even think about other oils oil in more than a decade. I don't remember. There are mineral, ester, POE oils, and PAG...IIRC.
A quick read says that Ester is used in many reman compressors, I suppose because it is cheap (and I certainly hope it will mix with the PAG oil types without a problem).
IMHO, contact the manufacturer (NOT the parts store) about the oil. Again, document whatever they say for future reference.

How do you know which type of oil is in the new evaporator?

NEW parts shouldn't need flushed. If the comp builder says the oils will mix and be fine, then forget it and stuff it all in the car. LOL


Make sure to use the correct amount of oil for the complete system, not just what comes in the compressor.


Found the oil chart in the Honda info this time. SP-10, #38897-P13-A01AH
My other post about this was wrong. Will edit that in a minute.

HTH

 
Rep Power: 0

Actually the other post was right as well. ND-8 and SP-10 are both PAG 46 double end capped oils. The difference is that ND-8 is made by Nippondenso (Denso) and SP-10 is made by Sanden. Do you happen to have the part number for ND-8? (I'm comparing prices).

According to part suppliers, 6th generation Civics came with two different types of compressors. One is the TRS090 made by Sanden, and the other is the 10PA15 made by NipponDenso (Denso). The Denso compressors only have a low-side port, whereas the Sandens have a low and high side port. The two are NOT interchangeable. (info I've gathered online).

 
Rep Power: 518

PM'd you some info.

 
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Okay, I promise this is my very last question. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR HELP!

At this point, I'm being a bit OCD about the minor details. I want this repair to last the next four years.

The entire high pressure side is being changed out -- the compressor all the way to the expansion valve. I'm probably not changing the evaporator. Would a filter on the suction side be helpful at all? I understand the physics of it...cold vapor is unlikely to carry particles -- but could the pressure/oil push them through? The low pressure side is somewhat clean, but has some light spots scattered inside it.


If you think a suction side filter is needed, do you have any recommended ones for the Civic? thank you ezone

 
Rep Power: 518

A filter would be cheap insurance, I suppose. If you can find something that will work. I know there are some that used to be available that you had to cut and splice a pipe to install, AND find room to put it (pancake type filter).

I really have never had to deal with them but I know they are out there. I really have no recommendations for you.

That screen type that I linked above--- I think they were factory approved for GM and maybe others. Like I said in that post: Check at a REAL parts store that caters to professional shops.
(We only have a couple here that I consider REAL, all the rest are nation-wide big-name discount chain stores for the most part.) Maybe an AC-Delco supplier type store? IDK, every store in every town is different.

If you are replacing everything contaminated in the high side, and can flush the rest out good, I'd think it would live just fine as long as the oil charge is sufficient to keep the compressor alive.

HTH