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*EDIT read the whole thread for some decent information on parts availible*

i was wondering if anyone knew some good companies for cam regrinds and possibly an ITB setup. i have an lx so nothing is premade for the head yet and possibly ever. im thinking somewhere around the gains happening from the crower stage 2. around the 30-40 horse power range. and just looking for a good companies for a ITB setup. i saw a DIY ITB setup but it seemed very time consuming and thats not in the cards with my new job. not dead set on the ITB setup but lets hear some companies thanks guys. and dont worry tuning that is not a consideration in this thread

*EDIT read the whole thread for some decent information on parts availible*

EDIT
To keep this thread strictly research based, a commenting thread has been added to the sticky at the top of the main 7th-gen sub forum. If you wanna comment on this thread, please do it there. Sorry for the incontinence. Any posts in wrong forums will be movoed. Thanks!!!

LINK TO COMMENT THREAD HERE

 
Rep Power: 388

Hmm, I never seen any ITB's for our engine. Can you find the link to the DIY that your talking about? Maybe this might spark some ideas on my part for an easier way to have it happen. I'm curious how the TB's would be activated, I can only imagine that would require a rather complex cable job.

 
Rep Power: 266

ya i can get the link its supposed to cost around 400 for the do it yourself...http://www.homemadeturbo.com/tech_pr...itb/index.html

any ideas on who offers good regrinds or custom itbs setups anyone? i found a universal kit but it only comes in 45mm stacks and i think that is a little huge for our engines

 
Rep Power: 388

No idea on the cam regrinds.

I've been looking at ITB's all morning. Ebay hads a bunch of manifolds you can pick up and hack apart for this. TB's in all differnt sizes.

From what I've seen. Yank the d17 mani, get a D16 mani, perferably stock over the skunk2 mani- which is a little bigger and harder to fit with out mods. Hmm, from what I remember you would probably need the D17 plate afixed, and to cut down on size, hack the D16 plate so your not double stacking them. then cut the runners on the mani at whatever length you can to get them to cram in the engine bay, and then use the couplers and tubing to get the throttle bodies on... kiss the velocity stacks away if you wanna run with filters. I'm still confused on how that DIY did the cable wiring- he said it was easier then he though it would be, which is good news. Not I'd trust that sensor he created either.

that could be the way to fab it up to begin with... check out this cable idea..

 
Rep Power: 266

hey hey might have found a few good things... colt cams has said they will work with me and find something that will work with the D17A1 heres the email:

To B. Campbell,Thank-you, for contacting us.Sorry we have not seen this model as of yet.However, I have been working with cams for over 25 years and designingsomething new has always been my one of my passions.A few questions need to be answered first on the valve trane, example: solidor Hyd lifters, roller or flat tappet, sohc or dohc etc.We would need to see your cam first to determine what the stock lift andduration is. At this point I can design something with you over telephonethat will suit what you're after as well as cost.There is no charge if we can't do anything for you. We will also pay forthe return shipping back to you if this is the case.If you are interested please give us a call at your convenience and I willgo over the details.Thank-you,Geoff BardalFOR OUR U.S. CUSTOMERS REGARDING SHIPPINGWhen sending in your cams, via any courier service or the post office.Please put as the value of the cams to be under $10.00.This falls under NAFTA and no duty charges will be inflicted on you.Please put on the waybill as well as on the package."Damaged Camshaft for Repair and Return"PAYMENTWe only accept International Money Orders in US funds made out to Colt CamsInc.COLT CAMS INC.#54 - 3347 262 nd StreetLangley, BCV4W 3V9TEL: (604) 856-3571FAX: (604) 856-3572 www.coltcams.com geoff1@coltcams.com

this company has a unique cam profile that opens the intake lobes slightly offset that allows for a better power band. sounds interesting to me

then i got an email from danstoy racing saying they will develop a custom ITB setup. here is there email:

Our custom ITB setup will run for 1,200.00. That is hardware only. We can either use Toyota 20 valve ITB's 40mm, 44mm or brand new TWM ITB's which are a little more pricier. You would also need to run a Full stand alone management.

Feel free to ask us any more questions if you have them


Jed
Manager of Danstoy

the only downside to the setup besides the large price tag is that this requires stand alone fuel management which i was trying to stray away from. well im not sure anyone is actually looking at these but i thought i would write it anyway. i have been trying to stay away from the dyi because i cant do any of the machining and i think that it would be hard to get it everything to work up right but im not experienced with fabing my own projects. thanks for the interest guys

 
Rep Power: 266

well i found another site that will custom fab a ITB setup. there prices are pretty high on the other premade systems. :

http://www.haywardperformance.com/intake.htm

just another site for ITB:

http://extrudabody.com/Products/ITBs.html

custom fab the plate might be easier

just some more stuff for you guys to look at

 
Rep Power: 266

ok now here is an interesting email from crower:

Brentt,
If it is going to be a custom grind you are going to have to send in the specs along with your cam. The price for that would be $100 and the motor that you have is a non vtec, the D17A2 is a vtec motor. the cams are different. We dont make cams for single cam non vtec honda motors. but if you can get the specs that you want for your cam, we can do it.



Thank You,

Marco Romero
Crower Cams & Equipment Co.
Phone (619) 690-7806
Fax (619) 661-6466

well seeing the hundred dollar price tag is not bad at all since i have found a camshaft for 25 bucks. the hard part is i would not know where to begin on sending them specs for the cam.... possibly a D16 non vtec cam profile? im not sure you guys have any ideas feel free to post...

 
Rep Power: 388

I thought it was the price of their regular cam, plus the extra custom fee (100 bucks)? I thought I saw this on crower's website, under the catalog.

Interesting links on the ITB's. Good work so far. Thoes guys are getting pricy quick. I agree on the fuel management system. With more air, you'll need more fuel. Once you max out the injecors (if you can running NA) you'll need bigger ones, and a fuel system thats worthy of supplying them with enough fuel. Makes sence, even though I wouldnt want to buy a fuel mgmt system at this point in my build. But it would be several months out until a company would get the design down, testing done, and be able to stock their shelves with a few of these bad boys.

I think the design would be a little differnt the the B series, which includes the fuel system. Our stock injecotrs and stock fuel rail are not part of the intake manifold, so you should be able to leave them alone and run ITB's. Only issue would be if the ITB's would max the injectors out, and if running bigger injectors would max the fuel lines/pump out. And of course this would happen because of the A/F ratio- adding more air means you need more fuel. A vafc2 should be able to tune this guy a little bit (assuming the ideal point is within the range the vafc2 allows for adjustment), but we all know the vafc2 has its limits.

 
Rep Power: 266

having to upgrade the fuel lines and fuel pump wouldnt be horribly costly i think i priced it all around 400-500 dollars depending on if a return line was added. i agree with you triz that upgrading the lx cam would make for a rougher idle and such which is why im interested in the colt cams with the slight offset on the intake lobes which will lessen the peak gains but will make a broader over gain. i think they asked for a factory cam so that they could take the specs off but im not sure i would have to reread it and i really dont want to right now. i was even considering a little dishonesty and seeing if i could get the specs from the colt cams ppl and give them to crower for a custom grind... but i think i would feel to guilty. either way i will look for a few more cam options this week and report back. later

 
Rep Power: 248

how much more hp do u guys think to expect out of a ITB set-up OVER a SRI/CAI?

 
Rep Power: 388

anyones guess is good as another. Traditionaly, ITB's free up a good amount of power on most engines. D17's dont give up power without a fight, so it would be pretty interesting to see what itb's could do for us.


I kinda wanna take off my intake and drive out to the gas station intakeless just to hear it

 
Rep Power: 266

hmm ok it has been a while on since i posted last i have been getting college stuff done. tonight i was bored and started looking at the bottom end of the d17 to look for improvements and this is where i stand with my thinking. i started by looking the possible stroker kits to see what was out there. i then went to the train of thought of hey i bet a d16 stroker would fit in our block since the d17 fits in the d16. now there is one company that makes up to a 2.0 liter displacement for the D16 here: http://www.rddyno.com/index.php?cPath=32_91

then after a bit more research i came across a limiting problem that i had not heard of. stroke to rod ratio. well i guess it turns out the the current D17 stroke to rod ratio is already a limiting factor that keeps it from being stroked out effectively because the piston is accelerating too much in a high revving application causing higher strain on the cylinder walls, or something along those lines. from what i have read tonight it seems that the best way to help this ratio would to to increase the bore in the cylinder and use a larger piston instead of a larger stroke and possibly a shorter stroke if a higher rev is wanted. so my question i guess is has anyone actually tried to increase the bore and use a larger piston possibly with a high comp and larger intake and exhaust valves. higher comp pistons because im stilling thinking along the lines of a NA upgrade. just thought i would throw this info out there to see if it sparks any ideas thanks guys

 
Rep Power: 266

alright well i emailed darton about what max bore they would recommend with there sleeves so we will see what the suggest and what that would cost. i read that on a d16 with a 1 mm overbore there is a noticeable increase in power. not huge of course but still. I also read that increasing the bore also increase the dynamic compression ratio but not the static? im not sure what that means but i will look into it. I read that a max of 78mm bore has been used on the darton sleeves for the D16 so with the stock 75mm bore that would be a nice increase which would lead to finding pistons for the application. I am waiting to see what darton says about the bore before i start looking into the pistons. Im hoping that the increase could put the displacement around a 1.9 liter with the over bore but i havent looked into calculating the displacement yet because i guess you could call me lazy after seeing the long formula lol. well i was just giving you an update on my progress even though i dont think anyone is reading any of this. later

 
Rep Power: 266

well by the time i finished the last post darton had emailed me back. what customer service. here is there email and mine:
Brentt,

The only sleeves we have for the D17 blocks are the 300 Series open deck sleeves. The sleeves come for stock bore size and have a max bore of 77mm. You can go with a 78mm bore on the D16 block but the D17 is casted differently than the D16 so they would not use the same sleeves. The D17 300-011 sleeves take about a week to make and cost $250.00 for the set. Installation is an additional $500.00 and takes about 15- 20 days.

Let me know if you have any more questions.


Thanx,

John


John Catapang
National Sales Manager
Darton International, Inc.
2380 Camino Vida Roble Bldg. K
Carlsbad, CA. 92011

sales@DARTON-international.com
tel:
tel2:
fax:
800-713-2786
760-603-9895
760-603-9629



From: Brentt Campbell
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 1:21 PM
To: John Catapang
Subject: custom sleeves



Hello,
I had a few questions as to the D17 Honda Block. I am looking into over boring the cylinders and i was curious as to the maxium bore you would recomend for the block with your sleeves in a NA setup . You list have sleeves for the standard 75mm bore. is there a possibility of a larger bore into the d17 block? i was told that a 78mm bore has been used on a D16. i was just wondering the price of customs sleeves alone and the price if you were to install them. thank you in advance.

Brentt Campbell


Alright well i have to go to class so i will be on later to look into piston options and possibly different compression ratios. later guys

 
Rep Power: 247

I'm reading this man, lol, keep up the good work. BTW I'm boosted and still reading this, so someone has to take the flag and run with it, sounds like you are doing a good job

 
Rep Power: 388

Figure anything out about what valves are good to run?
Overbored +1mm, +.5MM?
Bigger on exhaust or intake side?

I'm about to get the valves taken care of while the head is apart. I need to valve guides also.

I talked to my machine shop guy, he said +1mm would be too much, but +.5MM looked about right. He also said the aftermarket valves out there arent any better then the stockers if your going with the standard bore sized. He also said it looked like it might be better to run bigger on exhaust then on intake side. I dont understand his theory behind this. Wanna hollar at one of your contacts and confirm this, and ask above questions?

 
Rep Power: 266

ok just for a little update i have sent emails to wiseco and to energy dynamics. I am waiting for replys from both. is there any other companies that you guys would suggest for pistons? i emailed energy dynamics about some head work and also asked them your questions TRIZ. i looked around and mostly i gathered that a 1mm overbore is only useful on FI and very demanding NA cars which i dont think ours would be. the energy dynamics company has some good reading articles and many good engine services. they seem to really know there **** (they developed 17+ :1 compression engines )so im looking into them for the headwork instead of KMS. if you guys search on here, there is a guy that did the stage 2 P&P from KMS and some other mods on an lx auto and made it to 110whp (about 30 whp gain without a camshaft upgrade) so im thinking this NA setup might prove some ppl wrong. o and i the looked up the displacement and it comes out to be just shy of 1.8 liter with the 77mm bore so that would be a nice increase. i think that is all i have to update on i will keep you guys posted thanks

 
Rep Power: 0

Holy ****, Darton only charges $500 to install their sleeves??? Duuuuude. That's very good news.

You're doing some fantastic research here man. Keep it up. Rep applied.

 
Rep Power: 266

ok well i received an email from wiseco:
Brentt,
We can custom make the part for that bore and whatever compression you would like. Cost is approximately $139.36 each (includes rings,pins,clips and coated skirts) and it takes 4-5 weeks.
Best Regards,

Wiseco Piston Co. Inc.


-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 12:49 AM
To: Questions
Subject: custom size piston


Hi i was emailing you to see if a custom 77mm piston can be made for the D17 Honda Civic motor. i know you have the stock bore in a 8.8 compression and i was wondering what options there would be. can i gets a few prices on to what this would cost thanks.

Brentt Campbell



So that would make it like $520 i believe for the pistons. triz no word yet on your questions. I have to go to class but i thought i would share this with you guys. I'm thinking this could come together. later

 
Rep Power: 388

Hmm, that looks like it would be cheaper to go custom then buying from a seller like dezod- no? Nevermind, Price is 500 now. 20 bucks more for a custom set though... In a heartbeat I'd pay the difference if I was in the market for pistons.

Is our motor even capable of handeling 77mm?

 
Rep Power: 266

What would make it not capable? just curious as to what you are talking about like what standpoint?

 
Rep Power: 0

Piston wall material being too thin to support the sleeves that get installed in them. They may become a floating bottom deck too, if they're bored out too large.

 
Rep Power: 266

can you explain that a little better speedfoos? are you saying the sleeves themselves could possibly be too thin? or are you saying the block around the sleeve might be to thin to support what the sleeve isnt? if im not making sense just tell me but i would like to understand this and im not sure what is ment by floating bottom deck. im looking around and not finding much on the subjects other than they are bad but not what they are. thanks man

 
Rep Power: 0

No problem. It basically means the piston chamber would be too thin and separate from the bottom of the block. It's a combination of the sleeves and remainder of the stock cylinder being too thin to remain stable and either separating from the bottom of the block or possibly even changing their inclination and subsequently bending/breaking a rod.

Here is our block with 75mm bores and stock sleeves. And the other side as well. The third picture is to try get down into the water jacket so you can see the block to piston chamber transition, but it didn't turn out so well. Bottom line is that we're not dealing with a lot of excess material here which is why we can't bore these motors out and throw 80mm pistons in them.

Hope that helps.

 
Rep Power: 388

I havent taken my motor apart yet, but how deep is the area around the cylinders that the coolant/water flows? Someone should take calipers and measure the thickness of the walls and he diam. of the cylinder outter edge to outter edge~ i'm guessing like 80-85mm or something?

 
Rep Power: 0

OK, here's some measurements w/o calipers, just small flexible straight edge.

Distance from top of cylinder wall to bottom of water jacket: This varies a little but is between 107-109mm (it slopes at the bottom)

ID of cylinder = 75mm
OD of cylinder = 88mm (you were close Triz)
So thickness = 8mm

Wall thickness at chamber transitions (3rd pic) = Thinnest point is still 8mm and thickest point is 15mm

 
Rep Power: 266

ok so with the overbore it would be only 6mm at the thinnest and 13 at the thickest. hmm i guess i should try and find what would be an acceptable thickness is there anything else i should look for? and thanks for all the help guys.

 
Rep Power: 266

ok well after looking around for a while i found some info on what is an acceptable thickness for the cylinder walls. they said on big block v8s and similar hot rod style cars around 5.1 to 4.5 mm thickness is acceptable on 600-700hp cars and on performance 4 cylinders 4.1-3.5 is acceptable some VW engines will even go down to 2.5 without problems supposedly. anyway with this info that makes me feel more than comfortable when using aftermarket sleeves. these thicknesses were from stock sleeved engines so ya. So as long as the darton sleeves have the same OD then the thickness should be more than acceptable. thanks for the help on that guys anything else i should look out for? and im still waiting on an answers to the valve questions.

 
Rep Power: 388

Double check and make sure all thoes engines were made from aluminum like yours is. If they have some carbon or titanium block, it will of course change the rigidity and wall thickness.

Thanks for the measurements foos! (+rep, gotta spread more love first)

Heres some for you too civic-driver for doing all the research!

 
Rep Power: 291

This is very interesting. Good job with all the research. It actually looks like you are getting some answers. Keep repping the a1. Some rep for you.