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What is your educational background? I looked at the rear bumper today and I don't know what your talking about... The rear bumper hangs higher than the front bumper and higher than the rear suspension, if anything there is low pressure in that void. You sound ridiculous and you talk way too much. Get yourself all worked up over nothing. People like you talk a lot and do nothing about the problem and have no real solutions. Shut up and go fix the problem if you think there is one.

 
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What gen civic do you have? Weather it hangs higher or not doesn't matter, it still get's trapped in the bumper. Why do you think they sell (ugly) aftermarket bumpers with (lameass) vents in the rear?

You're right, I've got no solutions. People have to wake themselves up I guess. It's pretty sad how easily controlled we are. All they need to do is offer us bread and circuses and we don't bark. Pathetic race we are. But who cares? We have Ipod.

 
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That is bullshit! You don't know what the **** your talking about. You didn't answer my question because your a high school drop out or the proud owner of a GED or some bullshit. It does matter how high it hangs because it doesn't matter where air sits stationary it matters where air flows. If it was hanging lower and flowing air was plowing right into it you would be right, but your not.

 
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I never said it blows right into it, and I never said it doesn't matter how high it hangs. Whatever amount of air does goes into it, it contributes to ~5mph decreased gas mileage. I understand what you're saying, that the front bumper is lower, but air molecules bounce and curve. It's not like there is a perfectly straight line of air that passes undear the car.

What does a GED have to do with anything? As if school and intelligence are somehow related. Actually, you're right they are. The dumbest people I've met in this country are those with college diplomas.

 
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Just rip your bumper off and shut up. Your totally right everything is a conspiracy and I work for the man I'm only here to place doubt in your peon head.

 
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Don't be so touchy. What have you got to lose by me believing what I do?

 
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Nothing, I'm just sick of seeing your thread at the top because you have posted a million long *** posts to yourself bellyaching about imaginary stuff. Tell a group of people who care.

 
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I'm with wheelspin. You've admitted you have no formal training, merely speculations and presumptions you've made that fit into your little conspiracy-filled world you're comfortable in. With no actual facts to base your presumptions and name-calling on, you end up being nothing more than a prophet on the street corner with a tin-foil hat screaming that the world is ending.

Look, buddy. Your longass posts illustrate how you have no concrete understanding of the way things work. All you know is what you read on the internet. I'm the one studying hard and learning about fluid dynamics and air flow and you're telling me none of it matters?

Well, answer this. Will a pickup get better gas mileage with the tailgate up or down?

 
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Who cares what a pickup will get with the tail up or down? We were talking about the civic parachute. Where is the counter to my argument? You seem to have skipped ahead to a fictional fututre of you winning the argument, which won't actually manifest. Calling me a conspiracy theorist lost in my world says more about you than it does me.

 
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Yeah but that's like preaching to the quire. And you choose to be in here, so if you're angry it's your fault.

 
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No, we're talking about your supposed knowledge that you're basing all your reasoning on. Just F.Y.I., a pickup truck gets better mileage with the tailgate up than down. Not what simple logic would dictate. And here my counter to your argument: you have no argument. What you have is a theory, based purely on supposition and a tad bit of observation. How can you insure that all other variables were kept constant during your testing?

I would say I don't want to waste time on this, but why the hell not. It's an internet forum. This argument will wait until I come back, it's not time critical.

 
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I imagine it has something to do with the tailgate trapping a bed of air in there. So the air riding over the cab sweeps over in a different way. But logically thinking it makes no sense, since I still envision an open tail creating zero resistance. Don't know, and I never claimed to be an expert.

I don't think a DX can get 45mpg normally. If it could, why not rate it at 45? Maybe the wind was totally in my favor that day (Oregon to Nevada). A 7mpg increase because the wind is traveling in your direction?

 
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That's exactly my point. There are a lot of things left unaccounted for for you to start pointing fingers and crying wolf.

 
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So what are you saying, that the rear bumper could AID in gas mileage?

 
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Wow.....this went from weird to just plain crazy....Dude is nuts!
He's one of those anti-goverment, anti-progess, just wants to complain, crazy people you avoid on the streets

I still say shut up & build your own car. You shouldn't be allowed to drive. You just need to walk. You bitch too much to have anything of value because whoever made it, i'm sure did not make it to your standards!!!

Oh heaven help use from the evil car companies & the "MAN"!!!!
Dun DUN DUN DUN!!!!

Conspiracy I say!!!


HAHAH!!

 
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Yeah, I'm with you. I think I'm just gonna let this thread die.

 
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Yeah, well, people like you ridiculed in exactly the same way when it was theorized the world was round instead of flat. Surely we would fall off!

But whatever. You're a good compliant little prole. Just so long as you're fed bones, you don't open your mouth. But if you ask me, we should bite the hand that feeds us bones.

 
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i just wanted to comment on a few things i read a while back:

1. a majority of bill gates' money is tied up in stocks in microsoft. if he were to get rid of the majority of his "money" (in quotes because it is really stock), he would lose ownership of his business.

2. i thought the idea behind hybrid cars was not to dramatically improve gas mileage on cars, but to reduce their emissions. even though a hybrid car may not get the best gas mileage out there, they have greatly improved emissions.

3. i would also tend to agree that there are plenty of other factors that would contribute to changes in gas mileage for any one person on a given trip anywhere. someone may be considerate of the fact that they are trying to get good mpg's and therefore put forth an effort to make sure they got it.

4. i also know that the mileage numbers on the window stickers of cars are estimates that will meet the driving demands of a majority of consumers, not specific ones. therefore, because we are given estimates, they can change.

5. i also know that cars are becoming a lot heavier these days, which helps to explain why older civics get such better gas mileage.

i am not looking to make the op upset or say that he is completely wrong, just offering my input and my rationalizations of the world around me.

i would also like to add that i have also met some pretty dumb people with college degrees, but that does not mean that everyone pursuing one is stupid. i would, however, trust someone who is actively trying to better themself through knowledge (getting a college degree) before i would trust someone on a soap box.

 
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So you're not starting your own car company? Damnit!!! I was so hoping someone of your excellence would take charge!

Oh well....back to the drawing board.....there's always extra strength vagasil for people like you

------------

To comment on MPG......I'm tired of argue here's the facts.....
The government is now enforcing "true" mpg figures.....the old way of determining mpg was a car stripped of all accessory items, on a treadmill, w/ no wind resistance, & all possible electronics turned off..so you really end up w/ a go-kart like chassis's mpgs

The government now requires all car manuf. to test these cars in real life driving situations on real roads. They must use real world figures...no more lab rat tests. I believe everything 2007 & up is required to take part.

 
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I appreciate your opinion.

I didn't know old civics got better gas mileage. That's pretty sad if you ask me.

 
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Well that's interesting because I can't say that Honda, before 07, inflated their MPG figures. What I mean is that I can get more than 38mpg.

Well anyway, I'm ready for this thread to die. I was really pissed off when I started it (and continued it). Not at anyone in particular. I feel like that guy in Falling Down...

 
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i wonder if it would upset anyone to learn that oil companies are deliberately blocking any effort to make cars more fuel efficient. in fact, there is plenty of CHEAP technology developed many years ago that can produce cars with 200+mpg (no typo), and spark plugs that will last forever and burn less fuel while keeping the engine running colder. and that additives in the gas are actually put there to reduce mpg even more by causing deposits on injectors. the car itself is also designed to maximize the use of fuel for no reason other than to be wasteful. they run rich on purpose, the cam timing is retarded on purpose, sensors on the car ensure that the engine runs at poor efficiency so that more and more fuel is dumped in over time. oxygen sensors are the same as they were 50 years ago! there are some scary inventions that have been patented yet would never make it to the market because oil companies would be out of business in no time. so yeah i do believe its a big conspiracy once you actually learn these things. but the trick is making sure a vast majority of the people DONT know these things. can you imagine what would happen if the entire usa population learned that Bosch tested an experimental spark plug non stop for 8 weeks to find that there was zero gap errosion and they concluded that the plug would last forever? or that a V8 motor sitting in the ford factory is capable of 250mpg. or that fuel vaporizing carbeurators as old as we are can increase mpg by over 100% yet their function is sabotaged by "additives" in gas that will cause the mechanism to fail. there are some amazing things out there that nobody knows about and may never find out that can change the world.

now here is an interesting idea. my 2002 civic with 80,000 miles started off getting no more than 34mpg in stock form on the highway. now it gets 42mpg, which is higher than the inflated epa estimate of the same year, and very surprisingly higher than a 2008 civic with the "corrected" deflated epa rating. and how did this happen that my 6 year old car gets better mileage than a brand new one with supposedly more advanced technology? i use oil and gas additives that actually work (which conveniently are not sold in any retail store), i have mods that reduce the ability of the cars computer to waste fuel. if you have hot air flowing into the engine, the ecu has no choice but to reduce the amount of fuel. thats right, a warm air metal intake gets better mpg than a plastic cool air intake from the factory. other mods can be done to change the way the computer works. advancing the cam timing by 2 degrees can result in 10% or more mpg increase and more low end power. the pcv system of the car is deliberately setup to clog the intake system with carbon blowby, so the car has to use more fuel to idle over time. i can go on all day with this.... whatever happened to the HX civic with vtec-E lean burn that could get 45-50mpg or more just like a new electric hybrid? oh yeah i remember, it was removed from production.

 
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http://eagle-research.com/newsletter...0/2000_04.html

 
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Uh oh, this thread again. ^_^

 
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THANK YOU! Excellent post. Now we're thinking LOGICALLY. The HX is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Why the hell did they mass produce the dx,lx,ex when they had a superior design? I'll tell you why: Hybrid wouldn't take off nearly as well. Why would I want to buy a hybrid if my civic or my friends civic get's 45-50 mpg AND he doesn't have to pay around 10K for it when the battery is spent? I know you're going to say "it's about global warming" but that just opens up another can of worms, which is that cars can be made to run clean NOW without overpriced gas/battery tech.

Let me also add that the civic engine is --get this-- ENGINEERED to be overly complicated, requiring the owner to spends way more time than he needs to on fixing his vehicle. Space in an engine allows the engineer to design things extremely simple. The Civic has plenty of space in the engine, yet you see a roller-coaster of tubes, wires, absurd stamping in the metal. Look at the fuel filter for example. HUGE SPACE ALL AROUND IT, yet it's so complicated! The housing is absurd by any standard. All they needed to do was put a sheet metal strap around it with 2 bolts. BLAM. Yet instead, they engineered --that's right, somebody got payed to engineer it-- to be so ridiculously complex!

Now i've worked on my engine quite a bit. When I did the timing belt, I experience first-hand how Honda intentionally places certain things certain ways NOT because they have to, but in order to make sure you spend tons more time than you have to working on your engine, and also to increase the price of the car due to proprietary and unnecessary parts/designs.

It's easy to engineer and produce a civic that is simplified. The engine could be so user-friendly that your grandma could change the timing belt. And it could be so cheap that we could buy one for 2K new.

Manufactured expenses to **** over the little guy.

 
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anything mechanical breaks if not maintained doesn't matter what it is. airplanes have major overhauls every 4 years regardless of what shape they are in, and they last for years and years. The fact is, don't expect anything mechanical to be reliable without maintanance. i'm sure if you overhauled your engine every 4 years, your car would last forever too hah.

Honda's are both economical and very very reliable cars, end of story. Yea sure they could use better materials and all that, but then your car wouldn't be under 20k.

 
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but i'm sure theres a lot of corruption in the automotive industry.... no doubt about it....

if there weren't, then we'd all be driving electric cars that get powered by solar energy, and we'd be paying a fraction of the price for maintanance

 
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LOL The MAN is out to getcha!

 
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And if he is, you certainly wouldn't know about it.

 
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Well that's my point. And also, I wasn't saying we should make civics with more expensive components. What I was saying is that Honda is intentionally making things super complex. They are using special machines to bend pieces of sheet metal into absurd shapes, for what? To INCREASE the price of the car, NOT to improve it in any way. The fuel filter housing is the perfect example. Honda could use a strip of sheet metal and clamp it down with two bolts --end of story.

And the fuel filter itself could be made with cheap removable filter, or a filter which you can clean yourself. The improvements you can make on the current civic design are in the hundreds if not thousands.

Who cares if they are reliable? Don't give them any credit. We had reliable cars in the 60's --more reliable than now, and super easy to work on. Don't give me that stuff about less room in the engine compartment. It's true there is less room, but PLENTY of room to make the designs simple and easy to work on.