speedfoos

iTrader: (17)

OK, the never ending war between me and my car. I win a battle here and there, it's wins a battle here and there. I'm getting stumped on this one.

Some of you may know I probably fried my alternator the first time out on the strip. It shut off twice (volts dropped down to 12) after runs and was wonky every since. So I got my used alternator today (thanks again streetthrowback!) and installed it, thinking it would fix all my woes. I've even gotten rid of all my stereo equipment to eliminate draw on the electrical system.

Well, I installed it, and it started right up and went to 14 volts. OK, this isn't bad, although I used to be at a rock solid 14.5 volts, I can deal with this. So get in and start fiddling with stuff to test it and make sure. I turned all of the following on at idle:

- fan at full blast
- cruise button
- lights with brights
- rear defrost

And I watch my volts fall to 12.5. I don't think this is normal. When I rev the car to 2-2.5K I'm back up at 14 again. Let off the gas and I'm back down to 12.5, until I start turning things off and then the volts go back up to 14 once more.

Is it possible my new (to me) used alternator is also bad?

Or is there another potential solution?

Keep in mind there are no Autozones here that I can just take my alternator to for the free test, although I think the base hobby shop may have something close, I'm going to check tomorrow.

I unplugged the illumination portion of my gauges and that didn't make any difference. I'm going to completely rewire them tomorrow off the battery (the main gauge power) and leave the illumination portion off just in case.

I also have a new (to me) engine wiring harness that if I get really desperate, I'll swap out on the off-chance I have a fusable link somewhere that's partially blown.

Any ideas would help here folks. It's not the battery as that is less than six months old and I've checked all my fuses and everything is fine. My other non-factory electronics are the PCS-XFC (pulls power from wiring harness), the wideband display (pulls power from radio circuit) and the power for the aftermarket gauges (5 total, also off the radio circuit). That's it.

Jza

Maybe the (new) used alternator is bad. If I had to replace my alternator, I would of upped to a higher output. Maybe you should try picking up a new alternator, if the problem persists, you can always return the new one you picked up, and troubleshoot using the used one you got?

Alpha 5

iTrader: (8)

Are you throwing any indicator lights?

Can you turn the accessories on one at a time in different order to find maybe this has to do with one of them. It also may help narrow down the problem.

Did you tap your ecm harness or did you use a pnp. If you tapped into it, double check the connections and how well they are insulated. I also may have a wire that is connected but not very well, so when you put a draw on it it can't handle the amps.

I will rack my brain on this one..

djmota

iTrader: (34)

sounds fine to me. The only time i would worry is if your voltage drops below 12.5 at anytime the engine is running. 12.5 and up is perfectly fine. Do you have a volt guage set up? I run my vafc2 as a volt guage and keep an eye on things since i'm running a tiny lightwieght battery. the things you are describing seem normal to me.

Jza

Just gona' pop in here and ask a quick question, do you just hook up a line tester to the battery to test voltage?

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

normal, the ELD turns off the alternator when the load isnt high. then when you turn up the fan or some other acc, it goes back to 14. it hardly ever stays there tho. most of the time it should be around 12v.

FoSho

No, that is not normal.........voltage should still be close to 14.0 volts all the time. With accessories & lights on honda shows a spec @ 13.5 volts max!!!!
One problem I have seen on our cars is the ELD - electronic load detection (which is in the fuse box, honda use to require fuse box replacement, now you can just by the $20.00 ELD) Here's a quote from my honda manual:

-START-
Since the early ’90s, Honda vehicles have come with
an electrical load detector (ELD) unit in the
under-hood fuse/relay box. This unit allows the
ECM/PCM to regulate the alternator (switch it
between high output and low output) to provide the
best combination of fuel economy and electrical
system operation. The ELD sends a signal to the
ECM/PCM that’s proportional to the electrical
demand. The ECM/PCM switches the alternator
between high output and low output depending on
several factors, which include electrical demand,
battery charge level, and the driving cycle. When the
alternator is in low output, the engine load is reduced
and fuel economy improves.
If your customer complains about this flickering or
dimming, tell them about the ELD unit and how it
works. Unless the engine won’t crank, or the vehicle
has other symptoms of a weak battery, chances are the
flickering or dimming isn’t an electrical problem.
- END-

The ELD monitors idle voltage & also what voltage is seen back at the battery / pretty much tied in to charging system. I had burnt up my ELD shortly after turbo install aswell. Never traced down exactly what blew it.....never gone out again.

You should see the ELD input/output on the alternator schematic...I'll post up tomorrow when I'm at work. Start there! I am almost 100% sure this is your problem. That or in your alternator....I'm suprised you haven't thrown a code though. My car threw a code for eld when it went out. I wish I would have measured my charge back with the eld messed up.

I'll post up with a flow chart for the eld tomorrow!

P.S. The ELD is the redish/burgandy box in the middle of the fused box.

All i got is the ELD connector view for right now
1 BLK/ORN (Fuse 4 – Under-dash)
2 BLK (G201)
3 GRN/RED (ELD unit output (ELD))
111. ELD Unit (USA)
– Gray
– Right side of engine compartment
– On engine compartment wire harness (right branch)

greeen01civic4d

iTrader: (7)

damn fosho, u beat me to it, awesome post too, but to add to that Clint, i would also upgrade ur grounds to larger gauge wire 4ga or similar, its a cheap way to get better power conduction all around, and some even say a few hp, not that ur concerned about that.... Clint, let me know if u need any of this from stateside and ill hook ya up if i can

tuningmycivic

iTrader: (11)

i wonder if i might possibly be having a similar issue...my voltage is normally around 12-12.5 while cruising and 13.5+ if i get on the throttle. could this also have something to do with my random misfires during cold idle?

skipbarber

iTrader: (34)

my car does the same thing clint. i can see 14 volts at initial start up, but then it stays at around 13.5, if i let it idle and turn on all the loads it'll go down to 12~. It's been fine though, remember, i just replaced my alternator over the summer. I dont know how much of a difference the ELD makes, but since i have OBD2 disabled on my kpro right now, the ELD is also turned off. Ive just learned to deal with it, as long as it doesnt drop below 12.5, im happy.

speedfoos

iTrader: (17)

So are we talking part #12 (in the pic) for the ELD then? I saw it in the my Haynes and on Mitchell last night but hadn't gotten down to where the part physically was located. If it's that part, I'll order it, because it used to be fine and now it isn't.

I'd deal with it Edwin, but it causes some light flickering and this started happening around the same time my idle AFRs went flaky. If it weren't for that I could deal with it. Hell, if I could get it to pass emissions, I could deal with flaky idle AFRs as well.

Tony, how are you idle AFRs and voltage? Are the AFRs solid at 14.72 or do they waver? I can't remember if you're running the RSX or SRT injectors.

No indicator lights Matt. It takes a big dip when I turn on the rear defrogger at idle., which makes sense as any heat generating device pulls a fair amount of amps. EMS is hooked in via a harness so there should be no issues there as I triple-checked everything with a voltmeter during a previous troubleshooting session during the install.

I do have a voltage gauge hooked up which is how I'm monitoring the the fluctuation.

When I drove in this morning I was solid at just under 14 (about 13.9) all the way into work. Will check my idle volts when I leave here in a little bit since momma got hit with the flu bug pretty bad today.

tuningmycivic

iTrader: (11)

voltage is steady at 13.8-13.9 at idle, afr is 14.7 with the occasional stutter and 14.4-15.0 immediately afterward, then back to 14.6~7. i think it's bad gas or plugs gapped wrong though. i'm still getting the random misfires after cold starts and after checking all connections, i still get the no activity code from the bank 1 O2 sensor after cold startup. and can you believe a new one is 200 bucks at AutoZone?

skipbarber

iTrader: (34)

wrong fuse box clint, the ELD is a little brown plate in the engine compartment fuse box.

speedfoos

iTrader: (17)

Thanks Edwin. Gonna go throw a heat shield up between the alternator and the downpipe as I think that may be causing some issues. Watched my voltage drop after running a 2nd-3rd 6K pull on the way home.

Yeah my idle AFRs are all over the map. Most times it stays around 14.6-14.7, but will dip to 14.3 ish and sometimes up in the 15s. I wonder if this is just the joys of a piggyback and big injectors.

FoSho

I checked my charge back readings at work today....full temp,fans on, all lights on, system booming, gauges on, emanage on........14.2 volts at idle.....rock solid.

Clint, my afr's surge like that too.......while driving & at idle..it is not uncommon for my afr's to surge between 14.5-16.2 !!!!! These readings are the same just cruisin around town. I cannot figure it out....but I haven't blown it up yet.

Here's the flow chart so you can test the eld - honda will not let me copy the pictures over however.
Hit me up with your e-mail so I can send you the entire .pdf files
__________________________________________________ __________________

2002 CIVIC - DTC Troubleshooting: P1298 (20)
DTC P1298: ELD Circuit High Voltage


Reset the ECM/PCM.

Start the engine.

Turn on the headlights.


Is DTC P1298 indicated? YES - Go to step 4.

NO - Intermittent failure, system is OK at this time. Check for poor connections or loose terminals at the ELD and at the ECM/PCM.■


Turn the ignition switch and headlights OFF.

Disconnect the ELD 3P connector.

Turn the ignition switch ON (II).

Measure voltage between body ground and ELD 3P connector terminal No. 1.


Is there battery voltage? YES - Go to step 8.

NO - Check the No. 4 ACG (10 A) fuse in the under-dash fuse/relay box. If the fuse is OK, repair open in the wire between the No. 4 ACG (10 A) fuse and the ELD.■




Turn the ignition switch OFF.

Connect ELD 3P connector terminal No. 3 to body ground with a jumper wire.



Disconnect ECM/PCM connector E (31P).

Check for continuity between body ground and ECM/PCM connector terminal E15.


Is there continuity? YES - Go to step 12.

NO - Repair open in the wire between the ECM/PCM (E15) and the ELD.■




Check for continuity between the ELD 3P connector terminal No. 2 and body ground.


Is there continuity? YES - Go to step 13.

NO - Repair open in the wire between the ELD and G201.■




Reconnect the ELD 3P connector and ECM/PCM connector E (31P).

Start the engine, and let it idle.

While measuring voltage between ECM/PCM connector terminals A24 and E15, turn the headlights on (high).


Does the voltage drop? YES - Update the ECM/PCM if it does not have the latest software, or substitute a known-good ECM/PCM, then recheck. If the symptom/indication goes away with a known-good ECM/PCM, replace the original ECM/PCM.■

NO - Replace the ELD.■

speedfoos

iTrader: (17)

Damn, OK so my ELD is definitely suspect once I get the alternators tested. Thanks man. Good to know about everyone's AFRs. Must definitely be a piggyback thing.

FoSho

Thats what I'm thinking......I was told surging afr's is normal while crusing.......but it is still wierd to see

djmota

iTrader: (34)

very good info fosho i'm running kpro also my eld is probably turned off same as skipbarber

speedfoos

iTrader: (17)

Well, haven't checked the ELD yet, but I did put some heat shield between my DP and alternator to protect it. A couple in-progress pics (I trimmed about 3" off the sheet later) and the final view from the top. Hopefully this well keep temps around the alternator down a little bit.

Mr_Plenty

iTrader: (3)

wow im late but yea like you've been told its either the altenator or the ELD. usually when the altenator is bad the voltages keep dropping when the car is running they dont maintain a steady voltage. When mine own was on its way out it went all they way to 9.0v before i got home lol so i know how it is. So im leaning twords the ELD.

speedfoos

iTrader: (17)

So does anyone have a P/N for a Honda ELD? Looking at Majestic's page, it's not really clear which doodad it is, but I don't think it's listed there. All the other relays and fuses are but, apparently not the ELD. FoSho, where did you find it for sale, anywhere?

Jza

I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but, what's the problem? I don't understand why this is bad? Your car runs fine? No?

ronaldo9

iTrader: (6)

Clint I just realized, you have a stage 2 cam. When I had my camshaft the lights would flicker a bit too. That cam was a bitch to get to idle and I had alot of surging. Although you have a turbo and I had an N/A cam I think that might have some merit.Maybe you have an ELD problem maybe you don't but that is something to consider as well.

FoSho

Good point ron......that reminds me of my roomates rx7 back at school.........he had underdrive pullies, it would surge at idle, make all the lights ficker, and even flash the oil light from the voltage surge.

Do you have pullies, Clint?

I bought the ELD @ my work....I work for honda remember
I'll get ya the part #......whats ur VIN?

Majestic doesn't have any updated parts. 1 yr ago I was installing an entire fuse box. 3 months ago they released a separate ELD replacement, which I installed for $20 bucks!

greeen01civic4d

iTrader: (7)

what do u do for honda?

speedfoos

iTrader: (17)

I expected a choppy idle with the new cam and head, but this problem was happening before I installed that. I'll pull my VIN at lunch and pm it to you.

Pullies are stock, haven't changed those.

The car itselfs runs fine aside from the idle and voltage issue, pulls hard under boost, is a tad rich at WOT but that's a minor adjustment we haven't gotten around to tweaking yet. It's that my idle has always been stupid. I'll spend $20 plus shipping to rule out the electrical system.

In fact, FoSho if you would want to help a brother out, I'd PayPal you the cost of the part plus shipping if you would buy it for me and send it out. Retail price is fine, not looking for a hookup on the price. Just can't get parts for it over here that aren't triple what you'd pay in the states.

I may be barking up the wrong tree or shouldn't be barking at all, but it never used to this even after the turbo install, and started before the cam install and still does it after the new (used) alternator.

FoSho

I work at a Honda/Toyota dealership as a Service Advisor/ASM....I am also a mechanic by trade.

The new updated part # for the ELD without fuse box replacement is....
38255-S5A-003 - $30.00 after tax + shipping....I can have it here tomorrow & ship out asap.

speedfoos

iTrader: (17)

Fantastic, thanks man. Let me go dismantle the fuse box and clean the contacts of my current ELD, but will probably end up buying that one through you next week (I go back to Germany for a few days this weekend).

Of note, I re-adjusted my valve lash today during lunch (it was a working lunch) and my idle is starting to calm down a little. Although my voltage is now staying at 13.1-13.3ish volts. Frustrating.

familycar

iTrader: (4)

your idle is definately a charactaristic of a piggy back. to break it down, your basically clamping the voltage that goes to the ecu. that is how it makes its adjustments. this ecu in general is touchy, that is one reason hondata never got into it. even though you have more control, your really not doing anything different than say a S-afc. our ecu always wants to correct the issues by banking to different sensors to ensure what its reading is correct. this is what causes the fluctuation in afr's and timing.

speedfoos

iTrader: (17)

Grrrr...that's what I've been afraid of. <shakes fist at Honda> You bastards!

I removed the ELD and cleaned the contacts tonight, they weren't that dirty. Started the car up and the voltage sat at just over 13. So I started turning **** on and watched the voltage climb to like 13.8, which means the ELD is functioning like normal.

I just ordered a passel of terminals to upgrade the rest of my grounds as well.

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