Engine builders, Enter this thread!
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Engine builders, Enter this thread!
Alright so I'll be getting a new 4G63 engine for my Talon soon, and while looking at another site, I stumbled upon this article:
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
This is of course totally opposite of what I had heard and been told. So I pose this question: Is the article total BS or is this what I should be doing to break it in? Some of what he's saying makes sense, but I'm not an engine builder so this is crap I just flat out don't have experience with. And please, let's keep the thread on topic, no "THAT IS TOTAL BS!!!111!!!eleventyuno" comments.
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
This is of course totally opposite of what I had heard and been told. So I pose this question: Is the article total BS or is this what I should be doing to break it in? Some of what he's saying makes sense, but I'm not an engine builder so this is crap I just flat out don't have experience with. And please, let's keep the thread on topic, no "THAT IS TOTAL BS!!!111!!!eleventyuno" comments.
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Rep Power: 347 That's the problem, I don't know if it's for reals. Maybe somebody on this site does so we can find out for sure.
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Rep Power: 257 i ran mine like a bat out of hell. it had 6 miles on it when i got it. im at about 34k now. no problems. my fiance's dad is a car guru and he said break it in like you drive it. dont baby it breaking it in cause as soon as you start beatin the hell out of it its gonna fail.
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Rep Power: 296 My car salesman (stop laughing he's not like most he knows his **** and is crazy about hondas) told me that the oldschool break-in was no more and to go hit up the freeway.....and my cars a very happy honda, I've had it since 2klms on the OD
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Rep Power: 286 There are sooooooo many different opinions on how to break-in a new engine. Don't listen to that site, its been around for awhile and i've seen many discussions about it.
Bottom line, don't baby your new engine, but don't beat on it either. If its a 4g63t, and not a 4g63, you're gonna wanna get on the gas a bit. You want the engine to see some boost so that the rings seat properly.
This is my take on the subject.
-Don't baby the car, but don't beat on it.
-Vary the rpms often, downshift softly, etc.
-No long highway trips where the rpms wont vary much.
At least for the first 1000 miles.
Bottom line, don't baby your new engine, but don't beat on it either. If its a 4g63t, and not a 4g63, you're gonna wanna get on the gas a bit. You want the engine to see some boost so that the rings seat properly.
This is my take on the subject.
-Don't baby the car, but don't beat on it.
-Vary the rpms often, downshift softly, etc.
-No long highway trips where the rpms wont vary much.
At least for the first 1000 miles.
Originally Posted by _unclejuice
i ran mine like a bat out of hell. it had 6 miles on it when i got it. im at about 34k now. no problems. my fiance's dad is a car guru and he said break it in like you drive it. dont baby it breaking it in cause as soon as you start beatin the hell out of it its gonna fail.
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Originally Posted by ctx66
There are sooooooo many different opinions on how to break-in a new engine. Don't listen to that site, its been around for awhile and i've seen many discussions about it.
Bottom line, don't baby your new engine, but don't beat on it either. If its a 4g63t, and not a 4g63, you're gonna wanna get on the gas a bit. You want the engine to see some boost so that the rings seat properly.
This is my take on the subject.
-Don't baby the car, but don't beat on it.
-Vary the rpms often, downshift softly, etc.
-No long highway trips where the rpms wont vary much.
At least for the first 1000 miles.
Bottom line, don't baby your new engine, but don't beat on it either. If its a 4g63t, and not a 4g63, you're gonna wanna get on the gas a bit. You want the engine to see some boost so that the rings seat properly.
This is my take on the subject.
-Don't baby the car, but don't beat on it.
-Vary the rpms often, downshift softly, etc.
-No long highway trips where the rpms wont vary much.
At least for the first 1000 miles.
It's a 4G63-T, but it's an auto...I guess I could just keep it in power mode for a while.
Power mode is kind of like overdrive on 1g DSM's.
I've been building 4g63's for damn near a decade now and I always break them in in a precise fashion:
1) Use standard high quality oil w/ no additives
2) Lay off the boost- keep the PSI below 10-12 psi
3) Run the first 500 miles gingerly
4) Turn the boost up to 12-16 psi
5) Drive normal for another 500 miles
6) Turn boost up to what you'll be running normally
7) Run another 2000 miles
8) Change to a Synthetic blend for another 2 oil changes
9) By your 3rd oil change, go fully synth.
This has been done on at least a dozen engines, and all have been built in the same fashion (6 bolt 4g63 2g pistons on 1g rods balance shafts eliminated 16g or larger turbo 650cc or larger injectors- all dynoing for 280-300hp after break in).
All of the engines I built are still goin- even with heavy track use and lots of auto-x.
I've been building 4g63's for damn near a decade now and I always break them in in a precise fashion:
1) Use standard high quality oil w/ no additives
2) Lay off the boost- keep the PSI below 10-12 psi
3) Run the first 500 miles gingerly
4) Turn the boost up to 12-16 psi
5) Drive normal for another 500 miles
6) Turn boost up to what you'll be running normally
7) Run another 2000 miles
8) Change to a Synthetic blend for another 2 oil changes
9) By your 3rd oil change, go fully synth.
This has been done on at least a dozen engines, and all have been built in the same fashion (6 bolt 4g63 2g pistons on 1g rods balance shafts eliminated 16g or larger turbo 650cc or larger injectors- all dynoing for 280-300hp after break in).
All of the engines I built are still goin- even with heavy track use and lots of auto-x.
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Rep Power: 347 I was planning on just running a ported 13G + ported Exhaust manifold for break in for around 10 psi or so and get an EvoIII 16G/SBR cast manifold + EvoIII o2 housing, but by your info, perhaps I should do that at the beginning?
If you're goin to do a swap of that magnitude do it once and do it right... it's not worth it otherwise.
If your talon is still running, buy yourself a used 4g63, tear it down and rebuild it yourself. All you REALLY need to get done professionally is the machine work (decking and boring, and if you really must be safe the rotating assembly). After that the rest of it is just like putting together some legos and paying attention to detail.
I prefer 6 bolt n\a blocks, less oil pressure instability.
Removal of balance shafts will help lessen the chance of a timing belt failure.
ARP hardware w/ mitsubishi gaskets is best
1g 6 bolt rods (big) and 2g pistons (8.5:1 comp ratio)
16g Evo III turbo is a nice well rounded bolt on turbo
EVO III Mani is fantastic esp. if ported
S-AFC II is your best friend.
Or since you have a 1g- DSMLink
If your talon is still running, buy yourself a used 4g63, tear it down and rebuild it yourself. All you REALLY need to get done professionally is the machine work (decking and boring, and if you really must be safe the rotating assembly). After that the rest of it is just like putting together some legos and paying attention to detail.
I prefer 6 bolt n\a blocks, less oil pressure instability.
Removal of balance shafts will help lessen the chance of a timing belt failure.
ARP hardware w/ mitsubishi gaskets is best
1g 6 bolt rods (big) and 2g pistons (8.5:1 comp ratio)
16g Evo III turbo is a nice well rounded bolt on turbo
EVO III Mani is fantastic esp. if ported
S-AFC II is your best friend.
Or since you have a 1g- DSMLink
Regular, conventional, unaltered oils have always just been the way I've gone. They don't have a lot of the added lubricants and cleaners that most blends and special mixtures have which can prevent proper seating of the rings.
They use this break in method for Lambo's to get proper compression. Once they're built they run it on their track for 100 miles @ full strength, change the oil, then baby it.
Yeah its really important to break your car in this way not only for compression and ring sealing but for other things like exhaust and (from what I've heard) excercising vtec. If the car is babied too much carbon builds up in the exhaust and you get holes.
Thats why I dont believe that a car should have more value if it is labelled "lady driven", since its a common misbelief that supposedly means the woman took better care of it on the road and therefore its a better car- Completely false.
Yeah its really important to break your car in this way not only for compression and ring sealing but for other things like exhaust and (from what I've heard) excercising vtec. If the car is babied too much carbon builds up in the exhaust and you get holes.
Thats why I dont believe that a car should have more value if it is labelled "lady driven", since its a common misbelief that supposedly means the woman took better care of it on the road and therefore its a better car- Completely false.
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Originally Posted by Derwood
If you're goin to do a swap of that magnitude do it once and do it right... it's not worth it otherwise.
If your talon is still running, buy yourself a used 4g63, tear it down and rebuild it yourself. All you REALLY need to get done professionally is the machine work (decking and boring, and if you really must be safe the rotating assembly). After that the rest of it is just like putting together some legos and paying attention to detail.
I prefer 6 bolt n\a blocks, less oil pressure instability.
Removal of balance shafts will help lessen the chance of a timing belt failure.
ARP hardware w/ mitsubishi gaskets is best
1g 6 bolt rods (big) and 2g pistons (8.5:1 comp ratio)
16g Evo III turbo is a nice well rounded bolt on turbo
EVO III Mani is fantastic esp. if ported
S-AFC II is your best friend.
Or since you have a 1g- DSMLink
If your talon is still running, buy yourself a used 4g63, tear it down and rebuild it yourself. All you REALLY need to get done professionally is the machine work (decking and boring, and if you really must be safe the rotating assembly). After that the rest of it is just like putting together some legos and paying attention to detail.
I prefer 6 bolt n\a blocks, less oil pressure instability.
Removal of balance shafts will help lessen the chance of a timing belt failure.
ARP hardware w/ mitsubishi gaskets is best
1g 6 bolt rods (big) and 2g pistons (8.5:1 comp ratio)
16g Evo III turbo is a nice well rounded bolt on turbo
EVO III Mani is fantastic esp. if ported
S-AFC II is your best friend.
Or since you have a 1g- DSMLink
Oh and funny you mentioned the balance shafts and timing belt failure, because that's what happened. I was cruising along at around 70 MPH and I heard a clunk and I ran over something, then the car started running like **** and about a minute lasterI could hear a huge vacuum leak. I babied it to where I was going, and when I opened the hood the exhaust manifold was glowing red. Managed to limp it home, when I took a closer look the vacuum leak was coming from where the BISS screw SHOULD have been. Anyways I trailered it to a shop to have it looked at, and what happened was the front balance shaft froze, the balance shaft belt got ripped off, and somehow (THANK GOD) managed to escape without taking the timing belt down with it.
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Originally Posted by Derwood
Regular, conventional, unaltered oils have always just been the way I've gone. They don't have a lot of the added lubricants and cleaners that most blends and special mixtures have which can prevent proper seating of the rings.
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From: Denison, Tx
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1. do a warm up, check to make sure it's running well, good pressure no leaks etc... change the oil and filter.
2. cut open the filter there will be some metal...this is fine as long as nothing crazy is in there
3. Then start it up the second time and take it for a drive and progressively get on it harder and harder till you are doing WOT pulls. That will seat the rings in the best. I don't ***** foot around in the thing for very long, if you baby it too much the rings will not seal and then it's a freaking pile.
5 pulls on 1/2 throttle to about 60mph going to about 4-4500 rpm, then 5 pulls on 3/4 throttle and then full throttle to 5000 rpm.
if you have a roller cam there is no need to be easy on it once everything checks out ok.
u CANNOT baby it or it won't seat right!!!!!
NO SYNTHETIC for a couple of thousand miles or they won't seat either!!!!
VARY THE RPM's
Running at a constant RPM is another reason for poor ring seating.
2. cut open the filter there will be some metal...this is fine as long as nothing crazy is in there
3. Then start it up the second time and take it for a drive and progressively get on it harder and harder till you are doing WOT pulls. That will seat the rings in the best. I don't ***** foot around in the thing for very long, if you baby it too much the rings will not seal and then it's a freaking pile.
5 pulls on 1/2 throttle to about 60mph going to about 4-4500 rpm, then 5 pulls on 3/4 throttle and then full throttle to 5000 rpm.
if you have a roller cam there is no need to be easy on it once everything checks out ok.
u CANNOT baby it or it won't seat right!!!!!
NO SYNTHETIC for a couple of thousand miles or they won't seat either!!!!
VARY THE RPM's
Running at a constant RPM is another reason for poor ring seating.
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First...
He conclude that method using "sport" motorcycle engines. The motorcycle pistons (sportbikes like hayabusa, r1000, cbr's) are forged units made of lightweight low expansive aluminum and uses chromoly rings. Our cars have cast aluminum (or cast iron, or...) pistons and cast rings. The tolerances and clearances of forged pistons are more tight than in casting. Other thing is the chromoly rings wear a lot less than the cast rings.
Second...
About his method, the method he said is a method actually used. He write about the first miles or "cranks" of the engine. I think the factory make the brake-in process of the car before they sell it.
If I rebuild my engine, definitely I will use a method like this. Warmup completely to allow all the metal parts to expand and make moderate-hard first runs on 2nd. As you said this is for engine builders that are searching for power to race not for a family car.
He conclude that method using "sport" motorcycle engines. The motorcycle pistons (sportbikes like hayabusa, r1000, cbr's) are forged units made of lightweight low expansive aluminum and uses chromoly rings. Our cars have cast aluminum (or cast iron, or...) pistons and cast rings. The tolerances and clearances of forged pistons are more tight than in casting. Other thing is the chromoly rings wear a lot less than the cast rings.
Second...
About his method, the method he said is a method actually used. He write about the first miles or "cranks" of the engine. I think the factory make the brake-in process of the car before they sell it.
If I rebuild my engine, definitely I will use a method like this. Warmup completely to allow all the metal parts to expand and make moderate-hard first runs on 2nd. As you said this is for engine builders that are searching for power to race not for a family car.
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Originally Posted by gmcuajo
First...
As you said this is for engine builders that are searching for power to race not for a family car.
As you said this is for engine builders that are searching for power to race not for a family car.
I'm not concerned about more power, I'm concerned about the longevity of the engine going in, because sadly 4G63's need to be well taken care of to last. Any little bit of gained reliability helps
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Originally Posted by 5.7 LT1 Z
1. do a warm up, check to make sure it's running well, good pressure no leaks etc... change the oil and filter.
2. cut open the filter there will be some metal...this is fine as long as nothing crazy is in there
3. Then start it up the second time and take it for a drive and progressively get on it harder and harder till you are doing WOT pulls. That will seat the rings in the best. I don't ***** foot around in the thing for very long, if you baby it too much the rings will not seal and then it's a freaking pile.
5 pulls on 1/2 throttle to about 60mph going to about 4-4500 rpm, then 5 pulls on 3/4 throttle and then full throttle to 5000 rpm.
if you have a roller cam there is no need to be easy on it once everything checks out ok.
u CANNOT baby it or it won't seat right!!!!!
NO SYNTHETIC for a couple of thousand miles or they won't seat either!!!!
VARY THE RPM's
Running at a constant RPM is another reason for poor ring seating.
2. cut open the filter there will be some metal...this is fine as long as nothing crazy is in there
3. Then start it up the second time and take it for a drive and progressively get on it harder and harder till you are doing WOT pulls. That will seat the rings in the best. I don't ***** foot around in the thing for very long, if you baby it too much the rings will not seal and then it's a freaking pile.
5 pulls on 1/2 throttle to about 60mph going to about 4-4500 rpm, then 5 pulls on 3/4 throttle and then full throttle to 5000 rpm.
if you have a roller cam there is no need to be easy on it once everything checks out ok.
u CANNOT baby it or it won't seat right!!!!!
NO SYNTHETIC for a couple of thousand miles or they won't seat either!!!!
VARY THE RPM's
Running at a constant RPM is another reason for poor ring seating.
best way to make it last man. the way you break your engine in is a huge deal. u do it right and its gonna last you forever man.
Originally Posted by ctx66
The only thing i'd worry about would be crankwalk, but since its a 6 bolt, you should be fine. Those engines are bulletproof.
I personally have owned 5 2g DSM's and have NEVER had a problem with crankwalk. And yet- I had a 92 Mustang with a 5.0 in it that had a crank go out of spec, and my SRT-4 is at the dealership right now getting the engine replaced due to crankwalk.
Any crank can go out of spec if improperly machined, weighted, or installed. Just because you hear about it so often from a vehicle that is so often heavily modified doesn't mean that it's going to happen to every 7 bolt.
cred: I currently drive a 1998 Eagle Talon TSi AWD 5-Speed w/ a stock 4g63 for Motor-X events all over michigan. It has 127k on it and is constantly getting used and abused on the track. I spec the crank on a regular basis and it always comes out perfect.
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Rep Power: 303 Break it in like you stole it off the lot. My oil is still clear after 3000 miles, mileage is good, and the engine just humms. I now change oil every 5000 miles. It's only beginning to get dirty at that point. If you baby the engine when it's new, you'll always have blowby, black oil each change, and less power and mileage.
Same with my 85 Nissan. I drive it with a hard foot all it's life. At 160K miles, no blowby at all. The motor is very sound, even the smog guys think it's a new engine. I once broke in a new engine very gently. It never ran right.
I'm a total believer of the hard break in method, it always worked for my cars.
Same with my 85 Nissan. I drive it with a hard foot all it's life. At 160K miles, no blowby at all. The motor is very sound, even the smog guys think it's a new engine. I once broke in a new engine very gently. It never ran right.
I'm a total believer of the hard break in method, it always worked for my cars.
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Originally Posted by Derwood
The C word really pisses me off anymore. The number of actual 7 bolt engines to actually crankwalk is MINISCULE. It's something like maybe 3-4% of stock engines, and maybe 15-20% of heavily modified heavy weighted clutch bearing engines.
I personally have owned 5 2g DSM's and have NEVER had a problem with crankwalk. And yet- I had a 92 Mustang with a 5.0 in it that had a crank go out of spec, and my SRT-4 is at the dealership right now getting the engine replaced due to crankwalk.
Any crank can go out of spec if improperly machined, weighted, or installed. Just because you hear about it so often from a vehicle that is so often heavily modified doesn't mean that it's going to happen to every 7 bolt.
cred: I currently drive a 1998 Eagle Talon TSi AWD 5-Speed w/ a stock 4g63 for Motor-X events all over michigan. It has 127k on it and is constantly getting used and abused on the track. I spec the crank on a regular basis and it always comes out perfect.
I personally have owned 5 2g DSM's and have NEVER had a problem with crankwalk. And yet- I had a 92 Mustang with a 5.0 in it that had a crank go out of spec, and my SRT-4 is at the dealership right now getting the engine replaced due to crankwalk.
Any crank can go out of spec if improperly machined, weighted, or installed. Just because you hear about it so often from a vehicle that is so often heavily modified doesn't mean that it's going to happen to every 7 bolt.
cred: I currently drive a 1998 Eagle Talon TSi AWD 5-Speed w/ a stock 4g63 for Motor-X events all over michigan. It has 127k on it and is constantly getting used and abused on the track. I spec the crank on a regular basis and it always comes out perfect.
