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This was my reply to a post but I figured I would share it with everyone because even though the topic has been beaten to death, the desire for us to swap out our ill-powered D17's for something better is still VERY REAL!!


Why can't we SWAP our engines if we really want to. I understand that the issue for some is that the amount of $money$ involved is quite considerable. But consider these two options....Keeping your "NEW" 2k1, 2k2 Civic and doing the major engine bay modifications and swapping in a more powerfull B18C1/C5 (whichever you prefer). Keep in mind that you would still have your NEW Civic Body and interior styling. OR buying a USED shell and swapping the same motor into it, then having to restore the finish of the exterior and interior.


See, for me the aspect of selling my car to get a "not so new" shell kind of defeats the purpose of me trying to have "cosmetically sound" fast car as well as not being a possibility because of me being a live at home college students who still has to listen to their parents (which we all do usually no matter how old we get). That is because I would like my car to remain stock on the outside (omitting exhaust of course) and then having a swap under the hood. You know what I'm talking about...total SLEEPER. However..I would like to have the SLEEPER look in my NEW CIVIC rather than a USED CIVIC.

What I'm trying to say is: If I could spend about $3500 on a low mileage B18C1 installed (complete w/ transmission, axles, ecu, and wiring harness) for my car and then do some major engine bay work (guessing about $1500 to relocate motormounts and accessories and suppor) all the while maintaing the NEW exterior and interior that I already have rather than spending $1500 on used shell, $3500 on same swap, then another$3000-$4000 on paintjob to restore the exterior, and not to mention the already worn interior.

I'm not saying this road is for everyone..but for those that would like to have the option of more power in their new civic and still keep it their NEW civic then wouldn't this be feasible?? I don't know what you prefer, but I prefer the latter.

Now here's a question for you, and please give me your honest answer. Do you think it is possible to go with my option and keep the car, do the major engine bay modification, then do the complete swap? Seriously. I think it would come out cheaper or at least equivalent to the cost of buying a used shell, restoring it, and then swapping and then not having that new car appeal. You see what I'm saying?


Anyone with any information or opinions please feel free to post them...The more feedback the better.

 
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I don't know,I think is too much work. Then probably you go to the track and you car will be in the low 15's or high 14's. And this is what's going to happen, somebody with a 2k1 civic with a couple of bolts on an 75 shot of nitrous oxide will blow you off. With less money and few mods.
But hey, that's my opinion, I respect yours!

 
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why do you HAVE to have a hybrid? are you aware that you would literally be shooting a giant hole into your resale value? at least with buying an old used up civic, you're buying a POS, the reason its so cheap is because theres literally nothing left, not like you need it anyway because you're replacing everything

but with a new civic... its just not a good idea, it seems like your only objective here is to say you have a different engine than stock.. and if you're still a college student living at home then it would certainly not be a wise financial investment at all, this isnt a project car this is your daily driver

also, are you positive an engine designed for a bigger engine bay with a longer front end and different front suspension will fit our engine bay, while retaining all of the factory motor-driven accessories? the only example we have of a previous generation swap is steph papadakis' drag civic, but its not like he needs a/c or power steering for a straight-line drag-only street-illegal vehicle, so his preferences are gonna be much different than yours

and its still a huge amount of money much of which you will NEVER see again, what kind of car do you have exactly? is it an EX? if so, this is going to be incredibly expensive.. if you must have a swap then the best option is a k20c, or the 160hp version in the Si/base RSX, maybe the 2.4 in the CR-V... lets take htowncivicEX's car as an example:

brand new civic EX = 17000 (conservative estimate including tax/tags/licensing)
k20c in good condition, fairly lower price of 5500
installation, 1000, considering its never been done before possibly higher

so right there, he's already invested 23,500 in his car, which is at the most, one year old, and yet 1500 more than an RSX-S at invoice price. lets compare this to an actual RSX-S (for example, you can use an Si or whatever you wish), compared to that hes got maybe a 50-100 lbs weight advantage, and the sleeper factor, but thats about it, is it really worth it? he might have the acceleration of a type S, but he doesnt have:

-type S brakes: 1000 for a rear disc setup, 400 for bigger fronts
-type S seats: at least 400-500 for sport seats, sport leather seats and a full leather interior up to 1000 total
-type S wheels: varies, maybe another 300-400
-type S suspension: aftermarket suspension that would be equal would probably run you at least 800
-type S WARRANTY: can't put a price on this
-type S resale value: good luck selling a hybrid, the resale value sucks as it is, you'd be better off putting the stock motor back in (which'll run you at least another 600-700), and then selling the aftermarket motor, of course you'd have to sell at a significant discount cuz most people probably won't want to buy a motor thats got that many miles on it

so there you have it, you may not like the idea of buying a beater and fixing it up, but the reason its such a good idea is because its so practical, you can have a fast-a$$ great handling car for under 8k, everything, great engine, great suspension, stripped interior but oh well, low insurance costs, and yet its well under the price of a new car of the same specs.. the only way i would say a hybrid would be financially sound for a 2k1 is if you own a DX, since you're going to replace everything anyhow you might as well not be paying for the better motor or suspension

 
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I'm with you KION.

See I have a LX..basically a DX with a tach and electric door and windows.

Here's where I'm coming from...I didn't spend money on my car..it was a Gift to me (I know..."lucky me") so I'm doing what I can with what I got, much like the rest of the people on this site.
So there for I don't have that initial investment of 17,000.

The only costs I would incur is the costs of the engine and components, and engine bay modifications. That's about it.

--Brakes..I can get an entire Front/Rear GS-R disc brake conversion for $500 installed.
--As far as seats....that will come later
--Wheels..I'm going with Rota C8's anyways.
--Suspension...I am definitely going with aftermarket coil-overs anyway for future auto-crossing pleasure.
--Warranty...can be obtained from your local Credit Union and still covers your entire car. And I will wait for my car's warranty to go out before I decide to go ahead with this swap.
--Re-Sale value....I'm sure you realize that almost every modification you do to your car (if left on for the sale) will automatically deduct from the resale value. And I'm planning on keeping the car for quite a while until I'm at least out of college or even farther down the road. At which point I would sell it for what ever I could get for it.

Basically my whole arguement is for those of us (and I'm sure there are quite a few) who have their car paid off already, and/or are ready to put some money into their ride in the first place. I agree...this setup is not ideal for everyone but isn't that the reason why not everyone has the same setup in the first place? Most everyone has a different reason for their mods, some just want a bolt-on fast, and others want to be as close to a full-race setup while maintaining streetability in the NEW LOOK of their car.


With all of this thought out and you now knowing MY situation...do you NOW think that my suggestion is feasible for MY application??

 
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<< I don't know,I think is too much work. Then probably you go to the track and you car will be in the low 15's or high 14's. And this is what's going to happen, somebody with a 2k1 civic with a couple of bolts on an 75 shot of nitrous oxide will blow you off. With less money and few mods.
But hey, that's my opinion, I respect yours! >>



I respect your opinion as well but...in the case of those times, I hardly doubt 15's...My friend just dropped a B18 into his 95 Civic and with only one mod..an autozone intake (which should hardly be a mod) and with a restrictive stock exhaust he is running MID 14's. Now I do believe my times would be comparable even though not identical.

And if some fool with a few bolt ons and a 75 shot decides to blow me off, then once I go turbo/super I will ask him to bring it on and then we'll see who's blowing who off.

 
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man ...aren't we talking about alot of money~

 
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<< And if some fool with a few bolt ons and a 75 shot decides to blow me off, then once I go turbo/super I will ask him to bring it on and then we'll see who's blowing who off. >>



Jajajaja that was funny, but really, I was trying to make a point!

 
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<< So there for I don't have that initial investment of 17,000. >>



well, you might not have had to pay for it yourself, but if you are now the owner of the car then it ends up being your money, that 17,000 (or for an LX, 15,000-16,000 or so) could go towards the purchase of a newer, faster car. while you might not have paid for it in the beginning, if you sell it and YOU get the cash, then its your money, whether you personally paid for it or not, see what im sayin? not that i paid for my car entirely myself either, but when i sell it i will keep all the proceedings (im a spoiled b!tch as well, we all kinda are) hehe



<< The only costs I would incur is the costs of the engine and components, and engine bay modifications. That's about it. >>



thats a lot of cash though, again, while a B18 engine/tranny is fairly commonplace, all the mounts will have to be custom made, unless you want to go with a k20c which will probably end up being just as costly (it'll be easier to install so you subtract those costs, however its newer and more rare which keeps it still fairly pricey)... for a B18C1, you plan to spend about 5000 as it is, meanwhile 6500 installed would get you a K20C, a significant difference in my opinion since you'd be having a newer platform, 30 more hp and 10lbs-ft more of torque...

lets assume though, you go with the B18C1, for comparison's sake again, 5000 installed. plus your brakes, thats 5500 installed. seats will come later, but they're still part of the car and you'll still be paying for them, so tab that in as AT LEAST 500 installed (if you opt for leather that'll be more, but lets assume you go with a good set of sparcos), so now you're at 6000. wheels, you'll go for c8's anyways, but selling your rsx-s wheels would yield more cash than selling your LX hubs, but lets jus assume thats a $200 difference, RSX-S wheels on ebay go for about 300-330 including tires, but we'll assume you sell them at a really cheap price so you lose a potential 200, bringing it to about 6200. suspension-wise, a good set of coilovers will be about 800, so we're at 7000, plus a thicker added rear swaybar and maybe an LCA, but lets assume comptech comes out with a civic package and it costs only another 200, it'll be definitely more steep but just for comparison's sake again... putting it at 7200..



<< --Re-Sale value....I'm sure you realize that almost every modification you do to your car (if left on for the sale) will automatically deduct from the resale value. And I'm planning on keeping the car for quite a while until I'm at least out of college or even farther down the road. At which point I would sell it for what ever I could get for it. >>



ok, you keeping the car for quite a while is basically a given though, but you'll still lose money on resale value. yes, i realize that almost every modification will never pay off when sold, but the depreciation on $7,200 worth of mods is significantly higher than a few bolt-ons here and there, especially if you factor in installation costs for that many components

so again, while your car will be modded like this in the long and not the short term, i think you would be happier selling your car, taking that money and putting the 7,200 you plan to spend and buying a better, faster platform from the start, because in the long run it will be a LOT less troublesome any way you look at it (whether it be financially, time of installation and component maintenance headaches, etc.)

dude trust me man, i want a faster car as much as anyone, i have a paid off 01 ex coupe, it would be hella cool for me to pop in, well, pretty much any engine besides the d17a2, but the more cash i spend on this only digs me in deeper, rather than having a fast civic with a shizload of mods i'd rather have a slow civic that sells easily so i can get myself into a 330ci a lil earlier... hehe, so in my opinion, your idea is still not feasible

 
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I'll stay with my new civic and I'll wait for the parts. You got keep in mind that the car is brand new for the market. 99 and 00 SI's are good for the custumer because they have already 3 or 4 years and the parts are out.
I am happy because so far, here where I live, I've bought the parts that I can get, so, as soon as they come out, I just buy them, and believe me, my car is running a LOT faster than before, I feel really good! Soon I'll get it in the low 15's.[IMG]i/expressions/beer_yum.gif[/IMG]

 
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hehe, low 15's, *yawn*.

btw, forgot to mention in my earlier post, i dont doubt that mid 14's is possible, thats about average for any civic hybrid (excluding b18b's of course)

 
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what? you don't think I'll make it?
Sorry man but our cars, at least EX runs an average of 16.2 16.3

 
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<< so again, while your car will be modded like this in the long and not the short term, i think you would be happier selling your car, taking that money and putting the 7,200 you plan to spend and buying a better, faster platform from the start, because in the long run it will be a LOT less troublesome any way you look at it (whether it be financially, time of installation and component maintenance headaches, etc.) >>




selling the car is not an option for quite a while for me...so if I want to mod my car beyond the basic bolt ons (not many of those for the LX anyways) is to do a swap into my current chassis.




<< lets assume though, you go with the B18C1, for comparison's sake again, 5000 installed. >>



Seriously...I can get one right now for $3500 installed by a friend who owns his own shop.



<< all the mounts will have to be custom made, unless you want to go with a k20c which will probably end up being just as costly (it'll be easier to install so you subtract those costs, however its newer and more rare which keeps it still fairly pricey)... for a B18C1, you plan to spend about 5000 as it is, meanwhile 6500 installed would get you a K20C, a significant difference in my opinion since you'd be having a newer platform, 30 more hp and 10lbs-ft more of torque... >>




If this is true...about not having to fabricate motor mounts then I will definitely look into the K20. How much extra work will need to be done in order to do a K20 swap....Are you absolutely sure that a K20 swap is easier than the B18C? Cause if so I'm not worried about the extra cash. For 30 more bhp/10+ft-lbs base torque I will seriously consider it.




<< i'd rather have a slow civic that sells easily so i can get myself into a 330ci a lil earlier... hehe, so in my opinion, your idea is still not feasible >>



I'm leaving the domestic cars alone until I'm 30+ That is unless ofcourse I can get my hands on a STINGRAY for me to restore.

Oh...and more info on a K20 swap would be nice

 
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Now we're talking!

 
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[IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/IMG]

 
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<< Now we're talking! >>



What? Who here that was born in the early 80's or before isn't a fan of Domestics?? I can't recall seeing any modded H/A's around then, so basically that's all there was to be a fan of

I'm sticking with Imports for right now though.

 
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<< selling the car is not an option for quite a while for me...so if I want to mod my car beyond the basic bolt ons (not many of those for the LX anyways) is to do a swap into my current chassis. >>



why is it not an option? its your car, if i were you i'd sell the car and buy a new Si (if you can get over the ugly looks or hb size) which would be a better platform than a b18c1'ed g7 coupe, granted it would weigh about 200 lbs more but the engine would have more torque (albeit 10 less hp) and better future moddability, lower compression for forced induction if thats your thing



<< Seriously...I can get one right now for $3500 installed by a friend who owns his own shop. >>



i said 5000 because i included your estimate of 1500 motor mounts with the installation, how do you intend to "install" it without motor mounts? hehe, so 5000 it is.



<< If this is true...about not having to fabricate motor mounts then I will definitely look into the K20. How much extra work will need to be done in order to do a K20 swap....Are you absolutely sure that a K20 swap is easier than the B18C? Cause if so I'm not worried about the extra cash. For 30 more bhp/10+ft-lbs base torque I will seriously consider it. >>



no no, see, you'll have to fabricate motor mounts no matter what, however you know for sure that one way or another, the K20C will FIT your chassis's engine bay. you cant say the same for sure when it comes to a previous generation motor. the previous generation honda civics/tegs had double wishbone suspensions front and rear, and as you know one big problem of our cars is that we now have mcpherson struts. these struts take up less space than a double wishbone configuration, which honda used to make the interior cabin larger. as a result, a 7th gen civic coupe's front end is shorter (and thus, overall shorter in length) than a 6th gen civic coupe and 3rd gen integra coupe (which was based on the 5th gen civic chassis anyway, but still). so, the thing is that you might be getting an engine designed to fit an engine bay with more space than yours, needless to say this could make installation a pain in the a$$, and might mean removing some of these accessories (maybe p/s, maybe a/c, whatever)

so yeah, the g7 civic and rsx are built off of the same chassis, which has a shortened nose than the g6 civic/g3 teg... thats why the K20C, for sure, will FIT a g7 civic with all the accessories intact, it'll cost helluva lot and require a LOT of relocation because of the fact that the intake is in front and exhaust in back, and the engine rotates the opposite direction, but at least you know that, dimensions wise, you can retain all accessories and still have a working setup, one way or another



<< I'm leaving the domestic cars alone until I'm 30+ That is unless ofcourse I can get my hands on a STINGRAY for me to restore. >>



haha, domestics? 330ci = bmw [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG] hehe

 
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There is no K20C found out that the RSX codes are K20A's.

That engine swap with the B18 is a waste of money, like dude said someone will be able to blow you off for way cheaper. Only person whose boat Im in agreement with on a swap is HtownCivic performing the K20A2 swap....but hey its your money

 
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very true, i say go with nitrous, for less than 750 installed in the short run you'll have the power you're looking for, maybe not constantly, but at least you'll have it when it counts, i.e. racing someone

 
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I think is better to have a car that saves gas, and with few mods and nitrous bring up the power just when you need it.

 
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Aight..I'm glad you gave me that information and I stand corrected.

Now onto bigger and better things...HtownCivic successfully swaped a K20 into his civic?? If so I would like some more information on that. In fact I plan on doing a lot of research on this and maybe soon getting a swap of some kind.


And about the 330ci..I was thinking that you were talking the displacement of a domestic engine. ci being cubic inches. I guess I need to put a little more thought into something before I speak.

 
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nah he bought the engine, he hasnt yet installed it though

and come on man nobody talks about engine size in cubic inches anymore [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG] hehe, 2003-2004 330ci = hopefully my next car [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG] hehe

 
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Do you know when he plans to actually do the swap??

I'd like to get in touch with him and talk to him about it.

 
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And maybe I'll get all my stuff and He and I can actually get together and help each other do the swap.

 
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Supercivic, he got the hookup from me. I was browsing ebay and there was one for sale and I dared someone in the GR forum to stop BS'ing about the swap and do it and Htown stepped up. He got an extremly good deal...trust me you wouldn't want to just go to the dealer and buy one considering engine alone will run you 6 to 10000 dollars (quoted around here). Save your cash and wait, or just say your prayers and hope I find another auction [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/IMG]

 
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yeah, you can go ask him yourself on the thread in general ramblings, but neo's the one that found the ad on ebay, needless to say K20's arent too commonplace having been introduced to the US market what, 6 months ago? hehe

heres the link to that thread, Link to swap thread

 
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I have a friend who just totalled his RSX-S, so I was gonna look into his motor. I would of course get it checked out and make sure everything was in working order, but if it's possible I would use that motor.

 
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some fool with 75 shot nitrous ain't gonna blow no one away...the whole point of an engine swap is that u wish to mod ur car but u also wish to start on a higher platform than most....he is modding a 127 hp engine while our friend here is modding a 190 hp engine.....who is gonna get more outa that deal????