don't use premium gas
03-22-2005
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Originally Posted by Jrfish007
Yeah, like S2000man01 said, if carbureted. The problem with that is that the fuel is not aromatized properly in a carburetor (it's not spread out), specially because it has a wet manifold compared to a EFI car that has a dry manifold. So you get pockets of fuel with out air and pockets of air without fuel, this means you will pocket in areas that are very lean, hence they will cause detonation and blow the motor up eventually. Higher octane fuel can help in preventing this.
03-22-2005
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Originally Posted by S2000man01
slightly offtopic. my F3 honda motorcycle is carbeurated. do you think i'd be better off putting premium in the tank because of this?
lol... that's a good one. But standing back for a second, you could possibly get more power, but the better question is do you need more power?
Speaking more technically though, modern carburetors are extremely well jetted and (in your case) not flowing as much fuel as a car carb would, so atomization is far greater because the jets can have a greater pressure drop and thus a better nozzle design. So I would say you many see .1-.05 hp gain, but then you get into the same range as the amount of power you loose with a slower burn, thus canceling each other out more or less. My Honda CBR600F1 has almost 50k on it without any problems and I just run 89 (that's what the guy I bought it from said the dealer told him to put in it, and at the time I just didn't question it). So I guess just go with whatever the manual says, chance are it probably says in the manual if gains will be noticed by higher octane (my Accord manual says no performacne will be found using higher octane or something like that), I'm at work so I can't really look at the manual CBR manual, if I could even find it.
Last edited by Jrfish007; 03-22-2005 at 03:21 PM.
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Rep Power: 0 All I know is, I've run premium through 5 cars that I've had, including my current civic. (not boosted yet) Thats 3 japanese cars and 2 domestics and I've never had any failures of any kind with the fuel system. I can honestly say that compared to 87, the 93 octane that we have here in FL does make the engine run a little bit better atleast thats the way it seems to me dont try to school me on the octane rating either because I know what it means. I certainly dont think I've ever noticed any power loss. 
Last edited by thiscrackerntam; 03-22-2005 at 05:24 PM.
03-22-2005
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Rep Power: 375 unfortunately, science and the laws of physics disagree with you. 
and how much mileage did you put on those cars? did you use only premium?
if you feel a throttle response better with premium, it's a placebo effect, because there isn't anything in the premium that isn't in the regular. the only variation you will get in gas is going from one BRAND to another.
and how much mileage did you put on those cars? did you use only premium?
if you feel a throttle response better with premium, it's a placebo effect, because there isn't anything in the premium that isn't in the regular. the only variation you will get in gas is going from one BRAND to another.
03-22-2005
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Rep Power: 787 on the same topic, I decided to put some shell gas (same octane) in my car instead of mobil. Wow I don't know why but the car ran like absolute crap. Switched back to mobil the next tank and back to normal.
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Originally Posted by S2000man01
unfortunately, science and the laws of physics disagree with you.
and how much mileage did you put on those cars? did you use only premium?
if you feel a throttle response better with premium, it's a placebo effect, because there isn't anything in the premium that isn't in the regular. the only variation you will get in gas is going from one BRAND to another.
and how much mileage did you put on those cars? did you use only premium?
if you feel a throttle response better with premium, it's a placebo effect, because there isn't anything in the premium that isn't in the regular. the only variation you will get in gas is going from one BRAND to another.
I'd like to know your explaination to this placebo effect.
03-22-2005
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Rep Power: 372 Are you asking what the placebo effect is? BTW you better be at our HIN meet f00l =)
03-22-2005
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Rep Power: 244 Damn, im glad i read this. I have been puttin g93 since i took of lot. Idk its just when i run 93 i feel shifting is more smooth compared to 86. The manual says 86 or higher does it not? Thats why i put 93, bc it never actualy said no higher then 86. Oh and when boosted, where u get bigger fuel injectors for the d17a1, non vtec? Thanks.
03-22-2005
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Originally Posted by Derek-CEO
stop thread jacking! I will delte all the topics not associated wit this thread.
I put in 87 shell tonite. see how it goes. the accord tracks my gas mileage history, so I will see if i get worse, better or indifferent.
I put in 87 shell tonite. see how it goes. the accord tracks my gas mileage history, so I will see if i get worse, better or indifferent.
03-22-2005
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Originally Posted by thiscrackerntam
no, I know what the definition is, but I want him to explain it further in detail why its a placebo effect. 
Sorry man, but I wont be there. I have to work.
Sorry man, but I wont be there. I have to work.If you fill up with 87 octane at a station, and then get 93 at the same station same brand, you are not getting ANYTHING more in the gas except the higher octane rating which equals longer burn time which equals what I already told you above. The mixture doesn't have time to burn completely before being scavaged out of the chamber, therefore equating to a slight loss of power. This loss is not discernable enough that you can feel it for the most part, unless you put in 100+ octane.
And as I already stated, federal regulations/laws state that whatever addatives are in a brand of 87 octane gas must also be in equal and same amount in the 93 octane gas. So as I said, you're not getting any better cleaners or more addatives if you use the same brand.
So what you MIGHT be experiencing is 1 of 2 things. A change in weather, causing your ECU to re-adjust and offer a bit more throttle response. Or you are changing brands of gas to something that works better with your car.
The only other case would be is if your engine is knocking for some reason on 87 octane, and going to 91 fixes that. However, if you're knocking on 87 and your car is made for 87, switching to 91 should be a temp solution as something greater is happening to your car.
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Anyway... S2000man01, you can say what you want, but you're not going to change my opinion. The problem is, I know what I know from personal experience and you have your facts gathered from the internet and what not, but I dont think your facts are significant enough to support what you're saying. If running premium in a car that calls for an octane rating of ATLEAST 86 or higher by the manufacture were an actual problem, it would say "do not use premium" in the owners manual but it doesnt. Atleast not for our vehicles it doesnt, and I'm willing to bet atleast 50% of the owners manuals for the econo boxes out on the road dont say it either.
Anyway... S2000man01, you can say what you want, but you're not going to change my opinion. The problem is, I know what I know from personal experience and you have your facts gathered from the internet and what not, but I dont think your facts are significant enough to support what you're saying. If running premium in a car that calls for an octane rating of ATLEAST 86 or higher by the manufacture were an actual problem, it would say "do not use premium" in the owners manual but it doesnt. Atleast not for our vehicles it doesnt, and I'm willing to bet atleast 50% of the owners manuals for the econo boxes out on the road dont say it either. Last edited by thiscrackerntam; 03-22-2005 at 10:08 PM.
03-22-2005
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Rep Power: 787 Just to clear this up...chevron techron cleaner is useless. I've used it every 3k miles for the first 20k miles I had the car, on top of filling up every tank with chevron 87 gas with techron. We swapped the head and found thick carbon deposits on the pistons that couldn't be removed even after scrubbing with brake cleaner
03-22-2005
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Rep Power: 375 These are not just some bits of info I threw together. Ask a mechanic who knows what he's talking about. jrfish who is a chemical engineer (in other words, he KNOWS exactly what I'm talking about) says the same thing I do. And as for info on the internet... these aren't joe schmoe's home pages, these are federal agencies, being the API and FTC. Ask a mechanic who knows about octane ratings and the burn process of the mixture. I did, and that's how I learned. I learned from people who know this kind of information because it's their job to know and their career. Tribologists, mechanics, and even jrfish our chemical engineer say the same thing. The API and FTC say the same thing. Even the BITOG website says the same thing. So you have all of this information coming from professionals and chemists and you're response is "i know what i know from personal experience". you're right, I'm not going to change your opinion, nor will I be able to educate you any further on this matter, so I'm just going to stop trying.
As for the whole "at least" part. They have to say At Least because the same octane ratings are not available everywhere. Sometimes all that is available is 86 or 87 or 88 at minimum. Therefore they simply say 87 at minimum.
You know what else the manual doesn't say? It doesn't say you should turn your car into a bridge embankment going 80mph, so does that mean that you can do it because if it was bad for your car the manual would say not to do it? No, I didn't think so.
It just amazes me sometimes how much people can ignore facts and information. I've explained the burn process to you, I've given you website links to professional sites, government sites, and given you information from the mouths of chemists and tribologists. Yet you, in the face of every fact and professional providing information have one argument and that is "personal experience" in the form of simply driving your car and seeing how it "feels". Yeah, there's no convincing someone like that, so I'm simply going to stop trying.
As for the whole "at least" part. They have to say At Least because the same octane ratings are not available everywhere. Sometimes all that is available is 86 or 87 or 88 at minimum. Therefore they simply say 87 at minimum.
You know what else the manual doesn't say? It doesn't say you should turn your car into a bridge embankment going 80mph, so does that mean that you can do it because if it was bad for your car the manual would say not to do it? No, I didn't think so.
It just amazes me sometimes how much people can ignore facts and information. I've explained the burn process to you, I've given you website links to professional sites, government sites, and given you information from the mouths of chemists and tribologists. Yet you, in the face of every fact and professional providing information have one argument and that is "personal experience" in the form of simply driving your car and seeing how it "feels". Yeah, there's no convincing someone like that, so I'm simply going to stop trying.
03-22-2005
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Originally Posted by gearbox
Just to clear this up...chevron techron cleaner is useless. I've used it every 3k miles for the first 20k miles I had the car, on top of filling up every tank with chevron 87 gas with techron. We swapped the head and found thick carbon deposits on the pistons that couldn't be removed even after scrubbing with brake cleaner
here is a chemical and technical analysis of several injector/engine fuel treatment cleaners, including chevron techron. This can be found in my oil/addatives/info thread here in this same forum.
http://forums.s2ki.com/forums/index....owtopic=171397
There were some references in another thread that implied that fuel system additives/cleaners were dangerous to cars. Well, I did some research, and talked to several manufacturers, and they say "bunk", unless the products are mis-used.
Here is what some commonly used ones are made of, in % by weight:
Pennzoil Gumout Regane
60-70% kerosene
30-40 Polyether amine
Analysis: I don't see anything in them that would harm a car
Gumout Xtra
90-95% kerosene
5-10% detergent
Analysis: I don't see anything in them that would harm a car
Chevron Techron:
30-50% hydrotreated petroleum distillates
10-25% Stoddard Solvent (similar to kerosene)
5-10% Naptha
1-5% Benzene
.1-.5% Xylene
Analysis: Naptha, Benzene, and Xylene are strong solvents, but I do not believe they are used in enough volume to cause problems.
Valvoline Complete Fuel System Cleaner:
52 - 62% Kersosene
28-38% Light hydrotreated petroleum distillate
6-16% Stoddard Solvent
Analysis: A good formula, should have no negative affects on seals, similar to Techron but without the stronger solvents.
Amsoil Performance Improver
80% petroleum distillates
No other compounds identified
Analysis: Safe, but without full disclosure of any other compounds, one must reserve judgement against the other, more technically advanced cleaners like Techron and Red Line SI-1.
Red Line SI-1
1-5% Alkenylamine
1-10% Isoctanol
1-10% 1,2,4 Trimethylbenzene
5-20% Aliphactic Napthta
Analysis: A very complete formulation: detergent/dispersant, corrosion inhibitor, fuel additive. It has an alcohol which will help disperse any water, several strong solvent cleaners, and a detergent. Very comparable to Techron, perhaps a bit stronger, so be sure to use it full strength only when properly titrated, or in smaller amounts for continuous cleaning.
**********************************************
Techron in some fashion is used in all of Chevron's fuels, and it is the one Detroit uses when its cars are EPA-tested and certified. Would they be selling a product that was causing fuel pump socks to melt? Possibly, but you can bet that if this were a huge problem, the mfr's would know about it, and be after Chevron like flies on a pile of dung.
I could not find what is in BG's 44K, but have been told it is very strong, so perhaps this is the sock melter.
BTW, did you know that more Techron is used in Supreme than the lesser octante Chevron fuels? It is true. (this is to help raise the octane level)
So do you need to use these products? If you use a top grade fuel like Chevron Supreme, likely you will not have significant buildup of crud on the intake valves and combustion chamber. If you sometimes use the cheap off-brands, you likely will benefit with a treatment at every oil change.
What do I do (and have done for 5 years)? I use Red Line SI-2 monthly as an adjunct to using Chevron Supreme, to ensure that any dirt that starts to get a foothold gets flushed. This regimen has served me well, my injectors wore out (one car after 300k miles!) but never gummed up or delaminated, and my socks are fine, thank you very much.
Here is what some commonly used ones are made of, in % by weight:
Pennzoil Gumout Regane
60-70% kerosene
30-40 Polyether amine
Analysis: I don't see anything in them that would harm a car
Gumout Xtra
90-95% kerosene
5-10% detergent
Analysis: I don't see anything in them that would harm a car
Chevron Techron:
30-50% hydrotreated petroleum distillates
10-25% Stoddard Solvent (similar to kerosene)
5-10% Naptha
1-5% Benzene
.1-.5% Xylene
Analysis: Naptha, Benzene, and Xylene are strong solvents, but I do not believe they are used in enough volume to cause problems.
Valvoline Complete Fuel System Cleaner:
52 - 62% Kersosene
28-38% Light hydrotreated petroleum distillate
6-16% Stoddard Solvent
Analysis: A good formula, should have no negative affects on seals, similar to Techron but without the stronger solvents.
Amsoil Performance Improver
80% petroleum distillates
No other compounds identified
Analysis: Safe, but without full disclosure of any other compounds, one must reserve judgement against the other, more technically advanced cleaners like Techron and Red Line SI-1.
Red Line SI-1
1-5% Alkenylamine
1-10% Isoctanol
1-10% 1,2,4 Trimethylbenzene
5-20% Aliphactic Napthta
Analysis: A very complete formulation: detergent/dispersant, corrosion inhibitor, fuel additive. It has an alcohol which will help disperse any water, several strong solvent cleaners, and a detergent. Very comparable to Techron, perhaps a bit stronger, so be sure to use it full strength only when properly titrated, or in smaller amounts for continuous cleaning.
**********************************************
Techron in some fashion is used in all of Chevron's fuels, and it is the one Detroit uses when its cars are EPA-tested and certified. Would they be selling a product that was causing fuel pump socks to melt? Possibly, but you can bet that if this were a huge problem, the mfr's would know about it, and be after Chevron like flies on a pile of dung.
I could not find what is in BG's 44K, but have been told it is very strong, so perhaps this is the sock melter.
BTW, did you know that more Techron is used in Supreme than the lesser octante Chevron fuels? It is true. (this is to help raise the octane level)
So do you need to use these products? If you use a top grade fuel like Chevron Supreme, likely you will not have significant buildup of crud on the intake valves and combustion chamber. If you sometimes use the cheap off-brands, you likely will benefit with a treatment at every oil change.
What do I do (and have done for 5 years)? I use Red Line SI-2 monthly as an adjunct to using Chevron Supreme, to ensure that any dirt that starts to get a foothold gets flushed. This regimen has served me well, my injectors wore out (one car after 300k miles!) but never gummed up or delaminated, and my socks are fine, thank you very much.
Last edited by S2000man01; 03-23-2005 at 12:03 AM.
03-23-2005
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Rep Power: 787 Well in that case it was running rich from the factory. It was mostly stock until about a year ago when I swapped the head, started using 89, added new header, tuned the fuel (which was still rich in the lower rpms before tuning).
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Originally Posted by S2000man01
Therefore they simply say 87 at minimum.
Its not like I'm being totally ignorant about the whole subject. I realize your facts may true to a certain degree, but like I said..."not significant enough to a degree that supports what you're saying" which is damage to injectors and other related fuel components, higher deposits of carbon inside of combustion chambers, etc. resulting in repairs needed and poor performance. I dont know who jrfish is so he might be YOUR chemical engineer but he's not mine. He might know what hes saying, but I really dont care at the moment because I'm talking to you right now. I'd like for you to tell me where in america the most abundant gas stations only sell 86 octane because I've been to a lot of places in america and I've never been to a place that only offered 86 octane. Thats right I said 86 again (not 87) 86 or higher because thats what our manual says. Anyway, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying I think the premium makes the engines feel better and that I've never had a problem. Thats why I dont think your facts are significant enough and to be perfectly honest, considering you're someone who has more race stories than mario andretti, I have to be skeptical and I know theres probably A LOT of people on this board who can agree with me on that.
03-23-2005
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Rep Power: 288 ive been running 93 since about 6 months after i got my car.. the first time i used it was an accident i just wasnt paying attention.. about 30 seconds after i started my car i noticed the change.. i liked it..
ill see how this 87 thing goes today..
ill see how this 87 thing goes today..
03-23-2005
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Rep Power: 0 Anybody know or know a way we can contact a Honda engineer so we can get an expert opinion that pertains to Our cars specifically on this matter? I understand where your coming from with all you facts, but If 93 actually hurt our cars the manual would probally say Use only 87 or 89 and warn against the use of 93. If it burt up injectors they would be replacing them under warranty because there is no warning against it.
Just something to think about.
I'm not saying it adds power but I like the way my car runs with it right now. So like I said I'll stick with what has worked for me so far plus I will be running N20 eventually anyway.
Just something to think about.
I'm not saying it adds power but I like the way my car runs with it right now. So like I said I'll stick with what has worked for me so far plus I will be running N20 eventually anyway.
Last edited by Redline04; 03-23-2005 at 09:20 AM.
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Originally Posted by Redline04
Anybody know or know a way we can contact a Honda engineer so we can get an expert opinion that pertains to Our cars specifically on this matter? I understand where your coming from with all you facts, but If 93 actually hurt our cars the manual would probally say Use only 87 or 89 and warn against the use of 93. If it burt up injectors they would be replacing them under warranty because there is no warning against it.
Just something to think about.
I'm not saying it adds power but I like the way my car runs with it right now. So like I said I'll stick with what has worked for me so far plus I will be running N20 eventually anyway.
Just something to think about.
I'm not saying it adds power but I like the way my car runs with it right now. So like I said I'll stick with what has worked for me so far plus I will be running N20 eventually anyway.
Not to be a d*ck man, but everything you need to know about the care and maintenance required for your vehicle is right in the owners manual. Basically it was written by the experts at honda motor co. Also another thing I'd like to point out is the owners manual actually recommends fuels with higher detergent content AND it even says that ping can occur when using the lower octane fuels so if you ask me, thats just another way of recommending premium gas without actually recommending it.
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Originally Posted by gearbox
on the same topic, I decided to put some shell gas (same octane) in my car instead of mobil. Wow I don't know why but the car ran like absolute crap. Switched back to mobil the next tank and back to normal.
Shell gas is bad in Ohio too. That's because Ohio has the worst laws on Sulfur content though, so most companies send their crap gas and stale fuel here.
On a different topic, for the cleaners, what exactly do you expect them to clean? Think about it for a second and think of how much time the gas and chemicals actually spend in contact with the parts of your fuel system. And the rates they flow, there is very little contact time with he injectors and such. Also, cleaners are going to be bad once they enter the combustion chamber, cleaners do not burn like gas and usually end up becoming carbon deposits because they are flashed at such high temps when the cylinder fires. Cleaners are not as great as many people think, the only real way to clean your injection system is to take it apart and actually take a pipe cleaner to the parts and get better fuel filters. A good fuel filter will do far more than any of these cleaners you guys are talking about.
03-23-2005
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Originally Posted by thiscrackerntam
Basically it was written by the experts at honda motor co.
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Originally Posted by Redline04
Anybody know or know a way we can contact a Honda engineer so we can get an expert opinion that pertains to Our cars specifically on this matter? I understand where your coming from with all you facts, but If 93 actually hurt our cars the manual would probally say Use only 87 or 89 and warn against the use of 93. If it burt up injectors they would be replacing them under warranty because there is no warning against it.
Just something to think about.
I'm not saying it adds power but I like the way my car runs with it right now. So like I said I'll stick with what has worked for me so far plus I will be running N20 eventually anyway.
Just something to think about.
I'm not saying it adds power but I like the way my car runs with it right now. So like I said I'll stick with what has worked for me so far plus I will be running N20 eventually anyway.
This brings us back to the point that the manual is written by the people who designed this car from the insde out, and surely a 1000 engineers and millions of dollars in R&D are going to know far more than any of us.
Last edited by Jrfish007; 03-23-2005 at 02:08 PM.
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Originally Posted by S2000man01
ALL THE OCTANE RATING MEANS IS THAT IT IS MORE RESISTANT TO DETONATION AND HEAT!!!
higher octane is exactly what s2kman said..... its more rsistant to detonation. this is why when detonation happens in a cars engine where it can begin to knock it is suggested to put in a higher octane gas. detonation is when fuel ignites in the cylinder before the proper time and you hear that knocking noise..... if you use a higher octane it'll be harder for the gas to ignite early so its recommended to use a higher octane when knocking (detonation) in the engine occurs.
i read abotu this a while ago so please correct me if i'm wrong... but this is aproximatly how i remember it
03-23-2005
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Originally Posted by thiscrackerntam
Its not like I'm being totally ignorant about the whole subject. I realize your facts may true to a certain degree, but like I said..."not significant enough to a degree that supports what you're saying" which is damage to injectors and other related fuel components, higher deposits of carbon inside of combustion chambers, etc. resulting in repairs needed and poor performance. I dont know who jrfish is so he might be YOUR chemical engineer but he's not mine. He might know what hes saying, but I really dont care at the moment because I'm talking to you right now. I'd like for you to tell me where in america the most abundant gas stations only sell 86 octane because I've been to a lot of places in america and I've never been to a place that only offered 86 octane. Thats right I said 86 again (not 87) 86 or higher because thats what our manual says. Anyway, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying I think the premium makes the engines feel better and that I've never had a problem. Thats why I dont think your facts are significant enough and to be perfectly honest, considering you're someone who has more race stories than mario andretti, I have to be skeptical and I know theres probably A LOT of people on this board who can agree with me on that.
