juror

Well hello. My wife and I own a 2005 Civic EX with ~149,000 miles on it, and having sold my 2006 Impreza 2.5i after we got married we're now a one car family.

Lately it's been slower than usual to get heat to the cabin. The temp gauge will come up to temp inside of 5-10 minutes, and it'll be another 5-10 more before there's noticeable heat coming out of the vents. At least when I've been driving, I've been pretty conscious of the temp gauge, not believing any of that nonsense about watched pots and all that. The car has been reading normal.

Saturday we we out running errands and true to form, by the time I got to Home Depot, we just about had some heat. I looked at the gauges as I shut the car off and noticed that temp gauge was at 75% instead of the normal 40%-45%. Nuts.

I popped the hood and checked the coolant. The reservoir was empty.

I went in and called the dealer (2 miles away) and confirmed that I probably shouldn't drive it over with the coolant that low to pick up the appropriate coolant. I bought a gallon of pre-mixed Prestone and a funnel, and went out and filled both the reservoir and the radiator.

Having committed myself to a future flush and fill with proper Honda coolant, I deferred the trip to the dealership and came home to do some research here.

I read a bunch of threads, but the most relevant is probably this one.

Based on suggestions there (and elsewhere), Sunday I went out to the nearby checkered flag auto parts store to get that sweet, sweet Lisle funnel ($40 very well spent, thanks to everybody who suggested it). I ran the front up on ramps and burped the cooling system per the instructions in step 4 here.

After about half an hour and the fan cycling 8-10 times, I was basically free of bubbles. I opened the throttle and looked for a little stream of bubbles, and didn't see any.

So at this point I'm cautiously optimistic that I don't have a blown HG for several reasons:

1. Coolant reservoir empty, not over filled.
2. No bubbles when I give it some gas (admittedly, not under real load though)
3. A faint smell of coolant before I opened the radiator cap to purge the air out of the cooling system. My wife smelled it too, and unprompted described the smell as "sweet".

While I was at said checkered-flag auto parts store, I also rented their cooling system pressure tester. Sadly, I didn't get the chance to use it, because the last person who rented it broke the damn hose off of the pump.

Having returned it there after purging the system, I went to the nearby orange and red auto parts store and the next-closest checkered flag auto parts store. Neither had a pressure tester.

On the way home, I got stuck in traffic for 30 minutes and drove home basically at a walking pace. The whole time the heat was good and the temp gauge was at its normal place.

Upon getting home, I confirmed that the coolant level in the reservoir was about where it was when I left home to return the tester.

At this point the questions are:

1. Should I try to get my hands on a working pressure tester? They're ordering up a replacement part at the original checkered-flag parts store. Will an indicated leak actually rule out a bad HG, or will a blown HG likely present the same symptoms? I get that a leak is a leak, but given the direction the leak usually goes in this engine, maybe a blown HG won't present the same symptoms?
2. The radiator hoses look OK. How do I get a better look at the radiator and hoses running to the heater?
3. No odor of coolant in the cabin. Do I need to get a look at the heater core too? If so how?
4. Am I fooling myself out of optimism?

I'd really hate to have to do the head gasket. The timing belt was done only 15,000 miles ago. If you've been keeping score, yes it was overdue. We were talking about cars about 2 years ago and I asked if it had been done on hers: "No" -> "Please google the phrase 'interference engine'" -> "I need to make an appointment to get that done".

Based on the cost of the timing belt job, I'm guessing getting the head gasket done at a garage would be edging up on half the value of the car. If we have to do it and the weather holds, I've got a couple weekends free coming up and I could probably do it myself if I can get the parts and a machine shop lined up in time. I'd really rather discover that the radiator or a hose is bad though.

ezone

Most of the head gasket failures on this engine are EXTREMELY slow in beginning stages, it may take several hundred miles of driving before enough liquid is displaced out of the radiator to make any noticeable symptoms such as loss of heater output or overheating.
Many people first discover a problem during or after an extended highway trip.

Combustion pressure leaks slowly into the cooling system, eventually displacing liquid from the radiator into the reservoir. Problems might get noticed with less than a quart missing from the radiator because the systems are small and there is little room for error.


Radiator and cooling system is designed to stay completely filled under all conditions. Reservoir level changes as engine heats up and cools down (assuming everything is working as designed)

Watch the reservoir level. Mark it with a sharpie or something as a reference point if you have to.
Check its level under the same condition (engine temperature) each time, because the level will change between warmup and cooldown and that might make it appear misleading.
After the engine is cooled to ambient temperature, the reservoir level should return to the same spot every time.

If you find the reservoir level slowly gaining over time, say the next 200-500-1000-2000 miles or so, that would mean the radiator is slowly getting lower and lower. That's a bad sign.


OTOH if you have the equipment to do it, the 12 minute leak test video in the overheating thread was made by me, the work shown is in real time, and the test can conclusively prove not only a leak issue exists but narrows it down to the individual cylinder(s) that are leaking.

NDNV

Very thorough description of your symptoms.
Unfortunately, these engines are notorious for leaking HGs... When I had mine done, the increased heat output was very noticeable. I cannot keep my hand over the vent on high heat for too long. I never got to the point of a climbing temp gauge in the dash though.

juror

Hmmm. I'll see if I can rent a compression tester from the checkered-flag auto parts store. I don't own a compressor, but as long as I can get a tester with a schrader adapter, I can put a bike pump on it and get it to 160 psi.

I'll see if I can make it to the parts store and do the test before the game tomorrow. If not, it might have to wait until the weekend.

Thanks for the reply. I'll let you all know what I find.

ezone

A cylinder is not perfectly sealed, your bike pump may not provide sufficient volume to build pressure vs. constant leakage through the ring gaps....and some of these head gasket leaks can take a while (time under pressure) before they leak enough to be visually confirmed.
Worth a shot though, see what happens.

juror

Well, I took a look at the compressors the orange home improvement store rents, and they have a max working pressure of 90 PSI. Any ideas other than buy and return at Harbor Freight (sorry couldn't come up with a euphemism for them), which seems like kind of an obnoxious thing to do.

ezone

You can try with 90 and see if you get any results.

juror

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I suppose it's worth $24 to see if I can get the test to go without huffing, puffing, cussing and trying to maintain 160 PSI with the bike pump :-D

Thanks for the help. With game 1 now over, I think it's now bedtime.

juror

I did the test following the instructions in ezone's video and got no bubbles in the coolant. I rented a compressor from the orange home improvement store, and was able to get the regulator to give me 125 PSI, which isn't 150-170, but it's a lot better than 90.

I left each cylinder under pressure for a couple minutes, and saw no bubbles.

As ezone expected, I couldn't maintain any sort of pressure over 125 even pumping continuously with a bike pump. If you find yourself needing to do this test, that's a non-starter, unless you're really committed to turning your arms into jelly.

I'd like to get confirmation that the head gasket is OK by seeing the coolant level in the reservoir go down after a road trip. As near as I can tell, we won't be taking one until Thanksgiving.

Since I'd like to at least have a diagnosis before then, I guess I'm back to my original questions:

1. Should I try to scrounge up a cooling system pressure tester? Checkered flag parts store hasn't gotten parts for the busted one in yet or been able to source one from another one of their stores in the area.
2. Assuming it indicates a leak, how do I get a better look at the radiator?
3. Do I need to take a look at the heater core too? There's no odor of coolant in the cabin.
4. Am I really fooling myself now?

A couple other things:

The guy at the checkered flag parts store noted that when the garage did the timing belt 15,000 miles ago, they might have done a crummy job sealing back up the water pump if they replaced it. If so, the guy posited that it could be leaking there. So two new questions:

1. Is there any way to diagnose a leak at the water pump without getting most of the way into the head gasket/timing belt DIY thread?
2. Is there anything else I should do since I have a compressor until around 8:00 PM today?

As an aside, the guys at my nearby checked flag parts store are phenomenal; I've owned a '76 Triumph TR-6 and an '86 Subaru BRAT, and I've seen the inside of a few parts stores as a result. These guys are head and shoulders above any other folks I've met at a parts store. One of the guys is a former mechanic of 20 years and there's a younger guy whose background I don't know, but is going to work as a mechanic at some point.

juror

And in case anybody needs to do this test, here's what I used:

Actron part number CP7828 compression tester
Lisle part number 24680 spill proof funnel
Husky part number 603 867 "Jobsite accessory kit"
~1 foot of 5/16 vacuum hose
1 x 3/8" barbed to 1/4" IP hose fitting
2 x small hose clamps
1 x Schrader-valve from a bicycle inner tube

From the head to the compressor, I arranged the parts as follows:

Spark plug hole <-> hose from the compression tester
hose from tester terminates in Male quick disconnect

Female quick disconnect with female 1/4" IP threads
male 1/4" IP threads to 3/8" barbed hose fitting.
5/16 vacuum hose
Schrader valve from a bicycle inner tube.

Shove one end of the 5/16 vacuum hose onto the 3/8 hose fitting (it went with some spit to make it slide better) and put a hose clamp on it.
Cut the schrader valve off of the bike inner tube, shove it into the other end of the vacuum hose, and put a hose clamp on it.

Now you can almost connect an air chuck to the schrader valve and apply pressure to the cylinder.

Before you do that, you need to remove the schrader valve core from the spark-plug end of the compression tester hose with the valve core tool included with the compression tester. After doing that you're good to go.

At the risk of stating the obvious, this is essentially a plumbing project, and most of the plumbing aisle at any given store is dedicated to turning one type of pipe or hose into another kind of pipe or hose. There are probably an infinite number of ways to get compressed air into a cylinder; this is just what I used.

You'll need a 19mm socket to turn the crank pulley. You'll be well-served if you own an extension too. Honda, after burying the crank pulley under the power steering pump, alternator, and A/C compressor thoughtfully provided a hole in the fender liner that lets you turn the crank pulley without pulling the liner. In ezone's video, he doesn't seem to be reaching under the car to that, so I'm assuming his arms are made of actual silly putty and he's turning it from the top ;-)

You'll also need a fairly long rod that'll fit down the spark plug hole. My longest screwdriver wouldn't fit, so I used a piece of one of those plastic-covered aluminum stakes people use to keep their plants upright.

Thanks for the help so far; I really appreciate the sage advice of the folks who really know what they're doing!

ezone

How much coolant does it lose, and how fast or slow does it lose it?
Coolant level continually dropping would indicate a leak somewhere, but displacing liquid from the radiator into the reservoir is usually the head gasket...or a sealing issue that prevents slight vacuum from pulling liquid out of the reservoir as the engine cools down. A pinhole in the small rubber tube could cause it, so could a bad radiator cap.

Could you just be dealing with issues from the last water pump replacement?
(nobody triple checked levels after several warmups and now it's low)


If you are trying to find a coolant leak (external or internal) then yes a cooling system pressure test could be used. Keep in mind that just like anything else it has its limitations, it can help show a large active leak, but may not help show minor seepage. It can help damage stuff if used improperly too.

Visual inspection first, much of the time you can locate leak evidence (colored crusty trails) without a pressure test if you look at all areas of the cooling system, all hoses and gaskets near where coolant would normally be. If a water pump is leaking out of the weep hole, that's exposed on the back and should leave evidence down the corner of the engine below the weep holes. If the pumps O ring gasket is leaking, that may run down inside the timing cover.

If someone yanked the IAC valve and didn't replace the worn rubber gasket, it might leak coolant into the intake manifold.

My arms are not silly putty, you silly goose. I was using a 2' extension and 18" ratchet, and camera was on a tripod set where you can't really see what's going on on beyond the fender. You can watch the screwdriver move as I rotated the crank though.

juror

I'm a little embarrassed to admit that it didn't occur to me to take of the wheel until you mentioned the 18" extension . I invariably run the car up on ramps because putting it on jack stands adds at least 15 minutes to each end of anything I do that requires it. Such is life when you're too cheap to buy a hydraulic jack and can never find your jack stands because you never use them.

Anyhow, at this point, I guess I'm in "keep an eye on it" mode. Between topping the system off in the orange home improvement store's parking lot and purging the air, I added almost 2 quarts of coolant (yikes). The heat had sucked since at least the start of cool(er) weather a month or so ago, but my wife said it was fine last winter. Presumably those two facts exonerate the garage that did the timing belt and water pump. If you think otherwise, please say so.

Once we get a handle on how much coolant we're actually using, I'll do a visual inspection of the system. If we're really leaking slowly (and we probably are, since neither of us have noticed any puddles), you're probably right that a pressure test won't tell us much.

How long should I let this go before doing a full flush and refill with proper Honda coolant? Obviously, I'd like to fix the leak first, but if I'm going to do damage leaving it in for more than a week or two, I'll put it at the top of the priority list.

Thanks again for the help, and for demystifying what was going on offscreen in that video. I feel a little foolish for missing the obvious and assuming actual magic in getting a ratchet on the crank pulley :-)

ezone

To start with, I'd just make sure the freeze protection is sufficient for your area, and figure out what the loss is actually caused by. Whatever it takes to figure that part out.
The repairs could well involve draining the coolant so figure it out and if so, may as well do it all at that time, if it can wait that long.

It's like ....say a car comes in to the shop for an oil change and 100,000 mile coolant service but I find it has a blown head gasket..... I wouldn't bother changing oil or coolant if I'm just going to do a head gasket job on (a car) in a couple days (have to order parts or whatever reason), because it will need the same fluids all over again when the head gasket job is done. Make sure it will last another week without blowing up and do it all at once. Make sense?


I probably just had the hoist raised enough to get the wheels off the ground and get the engine to a height that was easy on my back. A 2' extension can clear the tire that way.

juror

The saga continues:

Last weekend I pulled the bumper to start the process of hunting for leaks per ezone's suggestion. Down at the bottom or the radiator in that little "tray" it sort of has, I found a big glob of sludge composed of coolant and road grime. Boom, problem found. I buttoned the car back up, drove to the checkered flag parts store, got a new radiator (this one: http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/c...480/19920274-P), checked to make sure my cap fit it (reviews indicate that some of them need a 1998 Ford Escort ZX-2 cap instead of the Honda cap). Took it home, unbuttoned everything, replaced the radiator, and put it all back together (I'm shortening the story a bit here).

I filled up with Honda coolant, purged it for about 20 minutes, and went about my business. I've been keeping an eye on the coolant level since then, and it's still dropping in the reservoir. I've been topping it up, but I'm past the point of a reasonable volume of air to have been still in the system. Also, I can smell coolant at the front of the engine bay when the engine is hot.

Damn.

I feel like the obvious place to start is inspecting the upper and lower radiator hose connections that I had to break to replace the radiator, but I'm not jazzed about having to pull the bumper again to get at them (thanks, Honda!).

For what it's worth, I replaced the extremely rusty clamp on the lower radiator hose at the radiator end with a hardware store stainless one. Was that a mistake? The dealership didn't have any in stock (wtf?) when I went to get coolant. Also, they wanted $5.xx EACH for those plastic pop fasteners that hold the bumper on. If those cost more than $0.025 to manufacture, I'll eat one; the profit margins on them must be obscene. The coolant was priced pretty reasonably though, at $18 a gallon.

Incidentally, if you're following this thread, the radiator from Advance has fittings for the transmission cooler lines. If your car has a manual transmission, it does not have/need a transmission cooler. I don't seem to be leaking anything out those fittings, despite what one of the reviews on the Advance website says.

ezone

The worm-screw style clamps tend to need some periodic retightening, but average parts stores seem to only keep these readily available.

The OE style spring clamps are preferable (IMO), they maintain constant clamping force under widely changing conditions. (my dealer doesn't keep them on hand either, they have to be ordered along with the hoses we don't keep on hand)

Make sure you didn't place your hose clamp directly over the barb of the fittings... It needs to be placed below the barb.

Cheap aftermarket, bodyshop supplies, generic 2pc. pushpins or xmas tree pins? Most of the stock pins were for 10mm diameter holes, a few may be 8mm. Lengths will vary.

Oooh, DangerZoo isn't much cheaper http://www.autozone.com/gaskets-and-miscellaneous-fasteners/fastener

I see this style used a lot, probably because they are dirt cheap and can cover a wide variety of different needs http://sell.bizrice.com/upload/20111...y_Fastener.jpg
Did you thoroughly rinse the areas where old coolant was spilled? Leftover coolant can stink for quite a while.

If you placed the hose clamps in a well thought out position ahead of time that can make the next removal much easier LOL

juror

Owing to a miscommunication between Mrs. Juror and me, I blew off working on the car last Saturday to do some of the other things I'd been neglecting, figuring I'd work on the car on Sunday. Whoops, she needed it, so I didn't get a chance to do any work last weekend.

So I'd been grumpy about having to pull the bumper off again all week, but then I had an epiphany last night:

After I purged the cooling system, I topped it off while the car was still hot.

This should account for a pretty good portion of the coolant I had to add, which brings the amount that goes to remaining air down to a much more reasonable amount.

But what about the smell? The second time I topped up the coolant, I didn't have funnel and just poured carefully, spilling some in the process.

That seems to account for both the volume I had to add and the smell. I'll keep an eye on the level, but it might be OK at this point. And if it isn't, I'm sure to be back here complaining about either my own incompetence or the astonishing degree to which Honda has managed to bury stuff under other stuff in the engine bay.

I'll update after we rack up a couple hundred miles driving to visit family for Thanksgiving.

Thanks again, ezone, for the help!

ezone

YW.
Yeah the level can change quite a bit between cold and hot due to expansion (because Physics), that's why the full line on the reservoir is only at the halfway point. To allow plenty of room for expansion.

I'd rinse everything down with a garden hose to get the spilled coolant washed away, that should speed up the odor dissipation.

juror

Gonna close the loop on this one. We've put about 2500 miles on the car since I replaced the radiator, and the coolant level is holding steady (and the heat works!). Thanks ezone for the help and for everybody else who posted in the threads I looked at when I was trying to diagnose the problem!