Ryan James

So I recently picked up a 97 Civic with d16y7 motor. I've been fixing quite a few things to get it up to par. So far I've done clutch, axles, left/right steering components, lower ball joints, and a few other things. Recently on my way home to replace my upper control arms my upper radiator hose completely blew. I stopped and did a roadside repair, but afterwards it was running really choppy and stalled when coming to complete stop. The next day I started the car up so I could change the upper control arms, with minimal problems. I noticed though when I parked it in the garage that it was still running rough and I also spotted the ac fan clutch engaging/disengaging rapidly even when the ac and entire ac system was turned off. I was planning on figuring this out next, but now after finishing the upper I have a crank no start condition.
I followed basic steps and even followed every step I found online to figure it out. I pulled the plugs, which looked good except for 1 with a little oil(assuming the gasket is going bad). I ran a compression test and got around 120 for all 4 cylinders band the pressure was holding strong. I smelled fuel coming out of the chambers during this, so I assume fuel is good. I don't have a fuel pressure tester but I went ahead and ghetto checked it by loosening the filter bolt and fuel came out. I checked the pgm-fi main relay by following the manual instructions and it's good.
Now I'm to the point where I assume there's some sort of timing issue, but the timing belt actually looks brand new from what I can see, and it seems like it is tensioned right.
I don't have a timing light, and since the car was previously running I didn't want to loosen the dizzy for no reason.
Am I missing something? Whenever I turn the key to on now as well, the ac fan turns on and stays on(the left side fan, not the radiator fan.) Could this be a computer issue if it's still sending spark and fuel?
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Colin42

Did you test for spark? you didn't mention how you tested it
Have you checked the distributor yet?

Ryan James

Yeah, I used a spark tester on all 4 and they all had a bright blue spark. No, I didn't take anything off the distributor yet, I was worried about messing up the timing. Would you take off the cover and just look at the internals for damage?

Colin42

taking off the cap with it on the car wouldn't affect timing. If you want to remove the distributor from the car just mark where it lines up on the engine, the distributor should only mate up with the camshaft one way because of how it's keyed

Ryan James

Ok I'll take a look at that in the next hour or so. Is there anything in particular that I should look out for, or anything I can test in it? If I'm getting solid spark, could the dizzy still be the problem? I know timing still could be but I was thinking the distributor itself would be alright

Wankenstein

Did it overheat?

Have you checked the coolant level in the radiator and reservoir since you replaced the radiator hose? Since the hose blew and some coolant was lost did you put the front up on ramps, turn climate control to max heat (fan off) and bleed the air out of the coolant system during idle and occasionally revving engine? Air in coolant system can cause idle issues.

This can also happen when the coolant is low...according to this post (reply #4): http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/63-...es-ac-off.html

Was the spark plug wet? Was it oil or coolant? If it's oil then it's getting blow-by from worn oil rings (not sealing). If it's coolant than most likely a blown gasket or cracked block allowing coolant to get into that cylinder which would aslo cause a lumpy idle (especially on cold start). Notice any abnormal thick, white smoke on cold starts and re-starts? Any issue with coolant loss before or after the rad hose blew?

Do a wet (one tablespoon of oil) compression test and post numbers. If compression in any cylinder rises significantly during the wet test then there may be an issue with compression ring(s).

What method did you use to check compression?
I like to charge the battery fully before testing compression. Disconnect distributor wiring harness, disconnect all fuel injector connectors, remove all spark plugs, crank engine until highest reading and keep cranking 2 or 3 revolutions past that point noting the reading on the gauge (psi rise or fall). Recharge battery then do a wet compression test as decribed above.

Although it's good to note fuel getting into cylinders... it's better to either disconnect fuel injectors or hold gas pedal to floor (WOT) during compression testing to prevent flooding in the cylinders. Without a fuel pressure gauge it's difficult to know if fuel pressure is within spec. A weak fuel pump can cause poor fuel pressure and casause starting or idling issues.

Mechanical timing: To properly check you'd have to remove valve cover: to verify cam/timing mark position + line up timing mark on crank pulley with the site (V) marks on the lower timing cover. Refer to service manual: You may need to check mechanical timing to verify the belt didn't skip tooth/teeth.

Ignition timing: Is checked with a timing light using timing cover site and a crank pulley mark/notch (group of three and seperated from the mechanical timing notch). You can use a grease pen, permanent marker or chisel to mark a notch on the distributor's bas and the cylinder head: http://www.hondacivicforum.com/forum...ustment-16210/

Does the condensor fan come on even when a/c button is off?

Ryan James

It did not over heat this time, however a few weeks ago it overheated when I had a coolant leak on a hose near the intake manifold. I fixed that one and bled everything properly.
After the lower hose blew I topped it off, started it and put the heater on high while topping it off until it no longer lowered.


I double checked the coolant again last night, it was a little low and topped it off again. That must have been because I didn't have it bled properly.


The plug was a little wet with oil, near the top of the threads where it touched the porcelain.
I have been battling several coolant leaks leading to slow losses, I topped it off daily until I got the leaks fixed and the last few days it seemed like there wasn't any noticeable coolant loss anymore. There is however the milky mix on the oil cap. As far as smoke I haven't noticed any, and I normally park inside if a parking garage at work so I assume I would have seen it.


Right now the battery is running low again so I will have to wait until my backup car arrives. I don't have a charger to keep it topped off while I keep cranking it so it's dying now. I will run the wet test later tonight though and post them up

I hooked the battery to another running car via jumpers, and pulled all 4 spark plugs. After that I just checked each cylinder 1 at a time for 4 cranks each. After cranking it I left each cylinder at pressure for around 15 seconds to make sure they all were not losing pressure.
I'll redo it later tonight following your described method. Since I don't have a charger is the jumper idea good enough? It definitely had it cranking faster last night.

I'll have to wait on these ones as I don't have access to a timing light or fuel pressure kit. I may have to try the mechanical timing shortly as well. The condenser fan actually kicks in as soon as the key is turned to on no matter what the AC settings are. This is actually a new problem, last night I pulled the condenser relay as the noise kept irritating me during diagnosing. When I last parked it the compressor clutch kept engaging regardless of settings as well.

Ryan James

So I took the cap off and the rotor seems to be good and tight. I did however find a crack in the plastic housing just behind the rotor. A chunk of plastic is nowhere to be found from the inner plastic housing (next to my thumb in the picture) but since it's missing I assume that has been like that since the last time someone disassembled it. The while inner plastic housing seemed a little loose. The screw holding the rotor is extremely tight so I'm looking for some better tools so that I don't strip this screw out.
picture link since it wouldn't attach

Wankenstein

Even one overheat situation can possibly cause a headgasket breach. Rent (free) a Block Tester from Autozone or O'reilly's and do a block test on it. Block test fluid cost around $10. Watch videos and read directions on how to do test properly. If blue test fluid turns yellow or green there's exhaust emissions entering coolant and the head gasket will need to be replaced.

Check it every morning for the next week or two after you do a proper bleed on it. If there is continued coolant loss in radiator combined with coolant gain in reservoir it's another sign of a head gasket breach.

Sounds like spark plug tube seal(s) are leaking. Try cranking the engine without plugs and look for oil shooting out of spark plug holes. Afterwards, with engine off, carefully insert a long screw driver or other object into the cylinders to the top of the piston..pull screwdriver back out and look for oil.

Rent (free) a coolant system pressure tester and pressurize coolant system up to (but not exceed? 16 lbs psi. Can do test on cold engine first and again at operating temp. Search for leaks while pressurized.

Another sign of a potential head gasket breach

Doesn't always appear as there's several types/locations of a headgasket breach. Best to have a friend rev engine a bit at cold start while you watch tail pipe. Thin, white smoke that only last a few minutes is normal condensation burning off. However, a thick continuous plume is a concern.

A minimum of six or more cranks with a fully charged battery should provide better results.

I borrowed Ezone's method. I'm not sure about the jumper method for that many cranks. Hopefully, Ezone or other members will chime in for clarity.

I'm very limited with HVAC knowledge. Will let brighter minds guide you on this.

Ryan James

Thanks so much for the input!
So far I've been about 90% certain there is a head gasket leak, but could that end up leading to a no start condition? I got further into the distributor and I can't find anything actually wrong, the plastic I thought was missing is apparently by design. I'm still waiting on another vehicle so I can at least get the compression test redone that way. A friend keeps trying to convince me that it's a crankshaft? Or camshaft? sensor, but I can't find any testing method in the manual I have. Could that cause a no-start as well? I know I need to loan the block tester, radiator pressure, and fuel pressure testers but those are unfortunately going to have to wait until payday if at all possible. If possible I want to get it running good enough again until payday then work on head gasket and any other leaks.

ezone

tl:dr
Someone got some Cliff notes?

If it blew a hose off, it probably soaked a lot of stuff in hot antifreeze, that leads to electrical ghosts and possibly nightmares. How far did the atifreeze get spewed?

If it overheated when it lost all of its coolant, that brings on another group of problems all its own.

Wankenstein

Not good to run it with a potentially breached headgasket. However, if you must it's a good idea to keep the climate control on max heat to help prevent overheating. Blower fan can be left on low setting.

Wankenstein

Lol.. sure: Old Honda.. most likely blown head gasket.. thee end.

Ryan James

Definitely a severely blown head gasket. This time when I ran the compression test (after topping off the coolant) I had small squirts of coolant shoot out of the other 3 cylinders. I'll have to see what damage is done when I'm doing the tear down for the gasket and hope for the best.

ezone

Expect a warped head as well. Have a good machine shop check it for you and resurface if necessary.

Ryan James

So I pulled the head, there was some coolant in 3 cylinders. I checked the head for warpage following the service manual and the biggest gap is almost .04mm. The manual says I don't need to resurface it until .05, is that right? I was going to resurface it anyways but money is so tight I could use the 40 it would cost elsewhere. Does anyone have any idea why the a/c compressor and fan would always run even when the a/c switch is off?

Edit: I also did sand the head and block down just to clean the surface off using some wet/dry sand paper and carb cleaner so the surfaces have clean contact

Wankenstein

Check the block for warpage too.. most likely it's not but, good to check to make sure. Do yourself a favor and bring it into the machine shop and have them recheck it for warpage. More than likely it will need to be resurfaced and the $40 is well worth avoiding having to redo the head gasket. Also, best to check valves for leakage and valve stem seals replaced while the head is off.

Sand paper is not good to use because it could possibly scratch the cylinder walls and internals during engine operation if you didn't get all of it cleaned off prior to head gasket installation. Wipe the cylinder walls, piston tops and cylinder head (unless hot tanked at machine shop) off as crefully and thoroughly as possible. Then used compressed air afterwards to help remove any sand paper grit.

ezone

If you meant it's warped .05 inch or 0.5mm, that head is junk.

.04mm...... That's close enough to failing. It is not flat. I'd send it to a machine shop and let them work their magic. The MLS gasket sealing depends on the head and deck surfaces being perfectly flat, along with a nearly glass smooth finish on the metal. (You noticed how smooth the block surface was before you started sanding, yes? Head needs to be the same way when the machine shop gets done with it.)

The last remaining local automotive machine shop in my town thinks a belt sander finish is good enough for every head they touch.
NOT. They all but ruined two heads for me. Bolt it on and it leaks before ever starting the engine. WTF?
I now send my heads to a machinist I found an hour away ---because his standards are as high as mine and can do the work I need done correctly, he gets my business. IDGAF if it makes a job take an extra day for travel and waiting....correct is much more important to me. I can't afford to do the work over for free if it fails prematurely.

BTW How you get a .04mm gauge? A feeler of .05mm is thinner than a sheet of paper.....and that's the thinnest feeler in any of my metric gauge sets, Snap-on or otherwise. .


I wouldn't be using sandpaper to clean a head or block. Same goes for Scotch-brite, Roloc discs on a die grinder, and many other popular choices. The grit can get into places it shouldn't and ruin bearings and cylinder walls once things get moving again. (I've witnessed an engine get wasted by a mechanic who declared he's "never had a problem doing it that way before"...it didn't last 20 miles before the bearings were wiped out.)
Also, you can cause low spots in what used to be a perfectly flat surface, and that leads to head gasket leakage later on.

When cleaning the head and deck you don't have to make them shiny and spotless, just perfectly flat and smooth. The MLS gasket only leaves some of its black coating stuck in a few spots, any chunks come right off easily. I usually use single edge razor blades and carb spray. I don't worry about discoloration as long as it's smooth.



AC staying on is a whole different issue. Unplug the control panel and see if it shuts off?

Wankenstein

OP: the following may come off as sounding cold but it's just a fact... A head gasket replacement doesn't care about your finances.

If, you skimp during the process it will more than likely bite you sooner than later in the form of having to redo the whole thing again prematurely. A proper machinist will:

1) Inspect the head for cracks, warpage and valves leakage
2) Disassemble the head and hot tank it to remove grime and carbon
3) If valves have leakage (most likely will) he will recommend a valve lapp job
4) If valves are lapped then machinist will remove as much carbon as possible on the valves
5) Will most likely recommend to install new valve stem seals which are inexspensive.

Hopefully, it won't need a valve job but, unless I am wrong, there will more than likely be some minimal leakage that developes over time/useage. If a valve job is included along with new valve stem seals the price could range from $200-$350 depending on the machinist. The benefit will be a more effecient engine that may increase gas mileage a bit and reduce potential future issues.

Best to use OEM parts: Head gasket, intake manifold gasket, exhaust manifold gasket (if needed), valve stem seals, coolant related gaskets.
Honda Parts Now is one of the online stores that sells OEM parts at good prices. There's others as well.

Wankenstein

Probably best to flush your engine a few times with a quart or two of oil. Remove oil drain bolt and keep it off during oil flush. Pour oil directly in the oil return passages in block. Hopefully, this will help remove any remaining coolant in oil pan and wash sandpaper grit through if it happen to make it's way down there.

Once you get the head back on and get it running do an oil change right away and another one within 100 miles. It may be over-kill or it may help prevent grit from killing the engine. Use the cheapest oil and filters you can find (Walmart) for these oil flushes. Then (optionally) upgrade for final oil change. Oil and filters are cheap compared to possible internal damage repair.

Ryan James

Well I ended up taking the head into the shop just to be on the safe side and got it resurfaced. I must say, regardless if it needed the full resurfacing I'm glad I did it because now the head looks so clean! I'm not sure what all checks were done at the shop but I did confirm with him that there were no cracks or leaks.
Further I cleaned the block, pistons, and walls at least 5 times while it was gone with some paper towels and then hit it with the compressed air about a dozen times after that.
I got the new gasket in, filled the coolant, changed the oil before and after getting it running (I didn't flush initially because I didn't see the recommendation in time) and I will definitely do another one soon to be safe.
The ac problem must have been coolant related as turd_ferguson mentioned previously as well. When I first started up the problem persisted, but since bleeding the coolant system it has gone away completely.

Now how do I give rep to all you guys for helping out?(nevermind on that I just found it) Thanks for helping out everyone!