Car bogs and won't turn on.
12-25-2012
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Car bogs and won't turn on.
Hey Guys. I'm new here. My brother purchased a non-running 2002 Civic LX Auto Sedan. The car turns on for a second and turns off immediately. If you hold the gas, it revs up and turns off
Oil is fine, Car has gas, and it wants to turn on, so I'm pretty sure there's spark. The spark plugs are fine. We checked to make sure that fuel was reaching the fuel rail and it is, but the fuel pressure seems weak. It doesn't shoot out like I've seen in other cars. It just flows out smoothly. Is this normal? I was thinking the fuel filter might be clogged or it needs a new fuel pressure regulator.
We can't check for error codes as the battery was unplugged for about a month. Any other ideas?
Update: I checked the spark plugs and they look fine, but are blackish and a bit damp with fuel. We tested for spark and each coil gives out a good shock. It has a cheap aftermarket intake, but Everything seems tight without leaks. We're going to disconnect muffler to check if the muffler or catalytic converter are plugged.
Oil is fine, Car has gas, and it wants to turn on, so I'm pretty sure there's spark. The spark plugs are fine. We checked to make sure that fuel was reaching the fuel rail and it is, but the fuel pressure seems weak. It doesn't shoot out like I've seen in other cars. It just flows out smoothly. Is this normal? I was thinking the fuel filter might be clogged or it needs a new fuel pressure regulator.
We can't check for error codes as the battery was unplugged for about a month. Any other ideas?
Update: I checked the spark plugs and they look fine, but are blackish and a bit damp with fuel. We tested for spark and each coil gives out a good shock. It has a cheap aftermarket intake, but Everything seems tight without leaks. We're going to disconnect muffler to check if the muffler or catalytic converter are plugged.
Last edited by Slowfosho; 12-25-2012 at 08:16 PM.
12-26-2012
#2
Re: Car bogs and won't turn on.
something is wrong in the timing area....
the computer is shutting the car down because it thinks the timing is not correct.....
start by removing the timing cover and checking the TDC marks.....if the marks do not line up, fix that, put it back together and fire it up....
if everything is fine there, and the marks do line up, it sounds like a faulty crank sensor and/or faulty cam sensor, i would just replace them both while you have everything opened up.....
depending on the mileage you might want to replace the timing belt while your in there as it will only cost about another 25 bucks
the computer is shutting the car down because it thinks the timing is not correct.....
start by removing the timing cover and checking the TDC marks.....if the marks do not line up, fix that, put it back together and fire it up....
if everything is fine there, and the marks do line up, it sounds like a faulty crank sensor and/or faulty cam sensor, i would just replace them both while you have everything opened up.....
depending on the mileage you might want to replace the timing belt while your in there as it will only cost about another 25 bucks
Last edited by mikey1; 12-26-2012 at 07:30 AM.
12-26-2012
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You're right. My bro had a friend over to check out the car. He was able to turn it on somehow by messing with the CPS. Since it finally turned on, we were able to get engine error code: P1362 (TDC Sensor 1 No Pulse).
12-27-2012
#4
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Car bogs and won't turn on.
You didn't say a thing about checking the timing, as recommended. You need to do that before wasting money on sensors you probably don't need.
The typical scenario:
Timing belt jumps time by one tooth, for whatever reason.
Cam and crank sensor signals are now "out of phase".
Computer detects this and shuts it down at 2 seconds of run time to avoid further damage.
Engine may start and run if the cam position sensor is unplugged.
P1362 is now set because the cam position sensor was unplugged.
What I would check for:
Pull the timing cover and verify if the timing belt has jumped time (most likely). Then figure out why, and fix it.
Or if it did not jump a tooth, and it really does have a flaky position sensor. Then fix that.
HTH
12-27-2012
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(It's CMP, not CPS. TDC = CMP.)
You didn't say a thing about checking the timing, as recommended. You need to do that before wasting money on sensors you probably don't need.
The typical scenario:
Timing belt jumps time by one tooth, for whatever reason.
Cam and crank sensor signals are now "out of phase".
Computer detects this and shuts it down at 2 seconds of run time to avoid further damage.
Engine may start and run if the cam position sensor is unplugged.
P1362 is now set because the cam position sensor was unplugged.
What I would check for:
Pull the timing cover and verify if the timing belt has jumped time (most likely). Then figure out why, and fix it.
Or if it did not jump a tooth, and it really does have a flaky position sensor. Then fix that.
HTH
You didn't say a thing about checking the timing, as recommended. You need to do that before wasting money on sensors you probably don't need.
The typical scenario:
Timing belt jumps time by one tooth, for whatever reason.
Cam and crank sensor signals are now "out of phase".
Computer detects this and shuts it down at 2 seconds of run time to avoid further damage.
Engine may start and run if the cam position sensor is unplugged.
P1362 is now set because the cam position sensor was unplugged.
What I would check for:
Pull the timing cover and verify if the timing belt has jumped time (most likely). Then figure out why, and fix it.
Or if it did not jump a tooth, and it really does have a flaky position sensor. Then fix that.
HTH
We had 3 codes in total. I wasn't there when my bro's friend got it started. I don't know exactly what was unplugged. It's kind of frustrating because my bro knows a lot less than I do. He told my he unplugged a sensor and I assumed it was an air sensor and that it created the other 2 codes (They seem related), but it turns out it was the CMP.
The 3 codes in total are:
P0113 (Intake Air Temperature Sensor 1 Circuit High Input), P1362, and P0505 (Idle Air Control System)
Is it safe to run the car without the CMP to check the timing with a Timing gun? Also, CMP is the Camshaft Position Sensor, Right? Why does Honda call it CMP when others call it CPS?
Thanks again. I appreciate the help.
12-27-2012
#6
Re: Car bogs and won't turn on.
Thanks for the info.
We had 3 codes in total. I wasn't there when my bro's friend got it started. I don't know exactly what was unplugged. It's kind of frustrating because my bro knows a lot less than I do. He told my he unplugged a sensor and I assumed it was an air sensor and that it created the other 2 codes (They seem related), but it turns out it was the CMP.
The 3 codes in total are:
P0113 (Intake Air Temperature Sensor 1 Circuit High Input), P1362, and P0505 (Idle Air Control System)
Is it safe to run the car without the CMP to check the timing with a Timing gun? Also, CMP is the Camshaft Position Sensor, Right? Why does Honda call it CMP when others call it CPS?
Thanks again. I appreciate the help.
We had 3 codes in total. I wasn't there when my bro's friend got it started. I don't know exactly what was unplugged. It's kind of frustrating because my bro knows a lot less than I do. He told my he unplugged a sensor and I assumed it was an air sensor and that it created the other 2 codes (They seem related), but it turns out it was the CMP.
The 3 codes in total are:
P0113 (Intake Air Temperature Sensor 1 Circuit High Input), P1362, and P0505 (Idle Air Control System)
Is it safe to run the car without the CMP to check the timing with a Timing gun? Also, CMP is the Camshaft Position Sensor, Right? Why does Honda call it CMP when others call it CPS?
Thanks again. I appreciate the help.
you dont check the timing with a timing light/gun, that is for ignition timing, we are talking about the cam/crank position timing, these are 2 totally different things,
you check the cam/crank timing be looking at the TDC timing marks on the camshaft pulley, and the crankshaft pulley,
you will need to remove at least the upper timing belt cover to do this, but i would suggest removing the entire timing cover (upper and lower) to fully inspect everything,
you need to rotate the crankshaft by hand until the crankshaft marks align at TDC, then you look to see the position of the camshaft marks,
12-27-2012
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you dont check the timing with a timing light/gun, that is for ignition timing, we are talking about the cam/crank position timing, these are 2 totally different things,
you check the cam/crank timing be looking at the TDC timing marks on the camshaft pulley, and the crankshaft pulley,
you will need to remove at least the upper timing belt cover to do this, but i would suggest removing the entire timing cover (upper and lower) to fully inspect everything,
you need to rotate the crankshaft by hand until the crankshaft marks align at TDC, then you look to see the position of the camshaft marks,
you check the cam/crank timing be looking at the TDC timing marks on the camshaft pulley, and the crankshaft pulley,
you will need to remove at least the upper timing belt cover to do this, but i would suggest removing the entire timing cover (upper and lower) to fully inspect everything,
you need to rotate the crankshaft by hand until the crankshaft marks align at TDC, then you look to see the position of the camshaft marks,
I used to know more about all this 5+ years ago when I had an older Toyota that constantly needed work. I was a lot more hands on and did more than basic maintenance. I sold it about 6 years ago and bought newer more reliable cars since then. Those only needed basic maintenance. Without practice, you eventually start forgetting things.
12-27-2012
#8
Re: Car bogs and won't turn on.
Ahh. I see. I'll give it a look tomorrow. Thanks
I used to know more about all this 5+ years ago when I had an older Toyota that constantly needed work. I was a lot more hands on and did more than basic maintenance. I sold it about 6 years ago and bought newer more reliable cars since then. Those only needed basic maintenance. Without practice, you eventually start forgetting things.
I used to know more about all this 5+ years ago when I had an older Toyota that constantly needed work. I was a lot more hands on and did more than basic maintenance. I sold it about 6 years ago and bought newer more reliable cars since then. Those only needed basic maintenance. Without practice, you eventually start forgetting things.
12-27-2012
#9
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Car bogs and won't turn on.
Is it safe to run the car without the CMP
The computer is shutting the engine down for a damn good reason.
DO NOT OVERRIDE the self preservation feature.
The rest is already answered above.
Why does Honda call it CMP when others call it CPS?
OBD2 caused many terms to be standardized across all manufacturers platforms.
All generic references related to the CaMshaft Position sensor will be called CMP.
The name CPS (or TDC, as in the case of some Hondas) may be used by manufacturers, but the generic reference will always be CMP.
HTH
12-27-2012
#10
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
12-27-2012
#11
Re: Car bogs and won't turn on.
there you go, perfect illustrations
12-28-2012
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We checked the Crank and Cam timing marks and they are all spot on, so we went ahead and replaced the CMP sensor, but the car still won't turn on.
I remember reading about something in the engine bay fusebox that can give out the same error code. I believe it was a relay, but I can't find it anymore.
Any ideas on what else it could be?
I remember reading about something in the engine bay fusebox that can give out the same error code. I believe it was a relay, but I can't find it anymore.
Any ideas on what else it could be?
12-28-2012
#14
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Car bogs and won't turn on.
Engine will start, runs for 2 seconds and then dies, right?
Green key light is not flashing when it dies, right?
Disconnect the cam position sensor. Move the wires out of the way.
Will the engine run longer than 2 seconds now?
Green key light is not flashing when it dies, right?
Disconnect the cam position sensor. Move the wires out of the way.
Will the engine run longer than 2 seconds now?
12-28-2012
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They green key light only flashes twice and turns off. It doesn't flash when the car turns off. The car does turn on when the cam position sensor is unplugged.
12-28-2012
#16
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Car bogs and won't turn on.
The car does turn on when the cam position sensor is unplugged.
Ok.
The computer does not like the way it sees the cam and crank signals.
It thinks they are out of phase. Out of sync.
Figure out why.
Most are truly out of time when this happens.
All it takes is one tooth out to kill it, and it may not set any codes.
12-28-2012
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12-28-2012
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When you say "turn on", you mean the engine will run for longer than 2 seconds?
Ok.
The computer does not like the way it sees the cam and crank signals.
It thinks they are out of phase. Out of sync.
Figure out why.
Most are truly out of time when this happens.
All it takes is one tooth out to kill it, and it may not set any codes.
Ok.
The computer does not like the way it sees the cam and crank signals.
It thinks they are out of phase. Out of sync.
Figure out why.
Most are truly out of time when this happens.
All it takes is one tooth out to kill it, and it may not set any codes.
I printed the pictures from that link and matched them up exactly to the timing marks. I'll take some pics in a bit.
12-28-2012
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12-28-2012
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Re: Car bogs and won't turn on.
Now you can add a blown head gasket to your list of problems unless you had the reserve tank already overfilled. Then it could have pushed it out. If it was spraying, I would guess a blown HG.
Last edited by Matt_75; 12-28-2012 at 08:14 PM.
12-28-2012
#21
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Car bogs and won't turn on.
What's CFK stand for?
OBD2 calls it a CKP, CranKshaft Position sensor.
CKF was the crankshaft fluctuation sensor on 6th gens, it was used for measuring crankshaft rotational fluctuation, AKA misfire monitoring. A 6th gen will run without that sensor connected.
On a 7th gen, the sensor in that same position is part of what controls spark. A 7th gen will not run without that sensor.
Damn, how long did you let it run like that?
Is it low on power? If you didn't try to drive it, you probably can't tell if it is or not.
It can take a godawful long time to get the fans to run, not necessarily a problem.
Pushing coolant to the reservoir is also part of the normal pressure relief as any engine warms up.
BUT if it keeps pushing coolant into the reservoir, followed by a steady trail of air bubbles, it could mean a head gasket.
I can't tell you which, I can't see it from here.
OBD2 calls it a CKP, CranKshaft Position sensor.
CKF was the crankshaft fluctuation sensor on 6th gens, it was used for measuring crankshaft rotational fluctuation, AKA misfire monitoring. A 6th gen will run without that sensor connected.
On a 7th gen, the sensor in that same position is part of what controls spark. A 7th gen will not run without that sensor.
t seemed to overheatl, but the temp only got to about halfway. Coolant began to overflow out of the bottle so we turned it off. For some reason the fans didn't come on.
Is it low on power? If you didn't try to drive it, you probably can't tell if it is or not.
It can take a godawful long time to get the fans to run, not necessarily a problem.
Pushing coolant to the reservoir is also part of the normal pressure relief as any engine warms up.
BUT if it keeps pushing coolant into the reservoir, followed by a steady trail of air bubbles, it could mean a head gasket.
I can't tell you which, I can't see it from here.
12-29-2012
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What's CFK stand for?
OBD2 calls it a CKP, CranKshaft Position sensor.
CKF was the crankshaft fluctuation sensor on 6th gens, it was used for measuring crankshaft rotational fluctuation, AKA misfire monitoring. A 6th gen will run without that sensor connected.
On a 7th gen, the sensor in that same position is part of what controls spark. A 7th gen will not run without that sensor.
Damn, how long did you let it run like that?
Is it low on power? If you didn't try to drive it, you probably can't tell if it is or not.
It can take a godawful long time to get the fans to run, not necessarily a problem.
Pushing coolant to the reservoir is also part of the normal pressure relief as any engine warms up.
BUT if it keeps pushing coolant into the reservoir, followed by a steady trail of air bubbles, it could mean a head gasket.
I can't tell you which, I can't see it from here.
OBD2 calls it a CKP, CranKshaft Position sensor.
CKF was the crankshaft fluctuation sensor on 6th gens, it was used for measuring crankshaft rotational fluctuation, AKA misfire monitoring. A 6th gen will run without that sensor connected.
On a 7th gen, the sensor in that same position is part of what controls spark. A 7th gen will not run without that sensor.
Damn, how long did you let it run like that?
Is it low on power? If you didn't try to drive it, you probably can't tell if it is or not.
It can take a godawful long time to get the fans to run, not necessarily a problem.
Pushing coolant to the reservoir is also part of the normal pressure relief as any engine warms up.
BUT if it keeps pushing coolant into the reservoir, followed by a steady trail of air bubbles, it could mean a head gasket.
I can't tell you which, I can't see it from here.
01-06-2013
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My brother ended up taking the car to a friend's shop. Turns out it had a short somewhere and it toasted the CPU. It beats me as to why the car turned on with the CMP unplugged. He said it was only half the CPU that was toasted. Also, he said the car might have overheated because the CPU wasn't letting the fans turn on. The check engine light turned off and no engine error codes have popped up.
Last edited by Slowfosho; 01-06-2013 at 06:28 PM.
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