Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

I dynoed my car yesterday and the tuner spent an hour tuning it and the car now makes less power than before the build. I dont understand this. It has the Comp stage 2 turbo cam, pistons, rods, SRT-4 injectors (OEM 03), Meth injection, AEM cam gear, Springs & retainers,GReddy Emanage ultimate and a Thermal R&D exhaust and is running 15PSI.

this is what it made:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...agnum/dyno.jpg


This is god awful. Before we tore the engine down the damn thing was close to 200 with just a cam, RSX injectors, exhaust, cam gear and 10PSI! what the hell happend here and what could i change to make more power. this is sickening to think that this has all been a waste. I know AEM or Kpro will give me further tuning abilities but I should AT LEAST be at the 200 mark without all of that.

please give me some help before i perminently park this car.

EDIT: I found two of my older Dyno graphs as evidence that the car once made more power. It was Dynoed another time but I was unable to locate that one. The lower Horse power one was with the addition of the cam and the next one was with the addition of E-Manage ultimate. As you can see I was making 20 hp with basically a stock engine and 10psi.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...gnum/Dyno2.jpg


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...gnum/Dyno1.jpg

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

There could be alot of things going on. Are you sure your injectors are flowing correctly? Is there a restriction in your system? Are you holding boost? Is your cam gear set properly? More details but yes you should be making more power and I'm not a fan of emanage, how is the ultimate working out for you? And the more obvious questions are you sure you have a competent tuner?

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

The tuner is not the best but he has tuned more than one car on Emanage and does really great engine work. If you look at the graph, you can see the boost line on it. it gradually drops off after spikeing at 14.5 and goes down to 10 as the graph moves over. I fear there might be a leak but wouldnt it show up on the graph? the boost gauge wobbles under boost which leads me to believe there might be something going on there.

How could i check the flow of the injectors? doesnt that require me to send them off and put on a flow bench? I dont think there would be any restrictions either. the car pulls to about 4 to 5k RPM and then it feels like it falls flat on its ass and doesnt want to move at all.

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

Would you happen to know what your air fuel ratios are? Another question is do you have a stock fuel pump or walbro? I wouldn't know the answer to all these questions but just asking them as to something to think about. I'm sure Andyman and the likes have better insight.

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

no your help is great!

I have a walbro fuel pump. I didnt put it in but its suppose to be in there. it is one of the only parts i didnt order myself. the A/F kept creeping up over 14.8 but we tuned it down to about 14.0-14.4 ( I think it use to be @ 13.5 if i remeber correctly). the pluggs have about 4K miles on them and seemed fine.

every one PSI only added about 5WHP.

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

ok .. 14 is way to fukin lean for afr.. under boost u wanna be 11.5-12.4 and at idle u wanna be 14.5-15.2 thats more or less the range u wanna sit in .... Being lean could cause u not to make power, ill tell u one thing ... ur tuner sucks cuz he's the one that has to be able to figure out ur problem .. not tune it at 160 and say go search. but anyway ... with that said, ur injectors shouldn't be restricting u at 160 hp their good for 250 .. im running 200 at 49% capacity..BUT GET THAT WALBRO in there!!... its either ur running tooo lean and ur not making power, or ur in limp mode cuz u said the car loses power at 4 grand and thats when vtec kicks in , so if ur in limpmode, u won't have power past 4 grand as the car is in "limp mode" could this be the reason? have u unplugged ur o2 sensors prior to tuning?.. thats my guess, someone might support me or tell u other wise, but don't worry, u will be 250+ once this is done..

ps. how much did the build cost u, what rods? k1 or crower? tell me how much u spent on the build.. same engine or another one

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

Shit dude, you're running out of fuel. You want to be between 11.5-12.0 when you're WOT under full boost. You're probably detonating like an SOB under that lean of a tune. Pushing that much pressure, with the cam and I'll bet dollars to donuts the stock fuel pump can't keep up, in addition to the "tune" your boy has done. I understand that you can lean a little bit with the meth injection but not that much.

As Billy Bob in Sling Blade said when everyone else couldn't figure out what was wrong with mower, "Needs gas."

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

^^ one of my two guesses .. 14s under WOT :S ur nutssss

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

the build cost about 4 grand but it had to be done due to piston slap.

we did get the A/f down lower as I now recall. I am thinking about putting the Type- S injectors back in and seeing what can be done with them.

I just emailed my tuner and asked him to send a screen shot of the emanage so I can show you exactly where it was sitting. I know he saved it.

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

u mite be in limpmode man, but im 99.9 sure that u being lean is causing u not to make power, don't get the rsx injectors lol are u kidding ? the srt-4s are way better. where did u buy ur parts? did u get an intake manifold ?

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

Three suggestions to fix your problem:

Install fuel pump

Do return conversion

Get kpro and a good tuner

Problems solved and power will be made....

If you don't want to destroy the engine you've just built, park it until you do the things mentioned above.

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

I ordered 85% of the parts for my car and he orderd the rest and i got receipts for most of it and i will have to go back through them to verify about the fuel pump. even without a return conversion, it should still be @ 200whp. I will be giving the dyno guy a call today and ask him to email me the A/F and maps he saved so i can let you get a better look at them.

Luckly i wont be driving my car much longer because i am buying a DD just to tool around in.

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

andy how much is it to do a return conversion ??

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

about $150

My tuner has built some wicked cars but they have all been built using Kpro an AEM. I have already begun calling around to shops trying to get some help with this issue but I still want input from as many of you as possible.

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

wow....15 psi on a stock non boost sensing fuel pump/regulator....I wouldn't dare push more than 9-10 on stock system w/o return system. I ran 15.3 AFR WOT for the numbers I put down below....that was at 9 psi leaning out on RSX injectors. If you do put RSX injectors back in only boost 8 psi.....Mine are at like 96% cycle at 9psi...... AFR's are a tricky thing to master. So many cars run in different AFR ranges. Non turbo engine w/ a turbo 11.8-12.2 range....some cars that come turbo can run in the 13's, newer passenger cars try to stay around 14.7 all the time......and carb'd car's are all over the place...I agree w/ andyman......park it and get the above....or put the rsx injectors in and retune for 8 psi....I bet you make more than 200whp w/ the rsx's :)

P.S> I blew my headgasket leaning out my injectors on 9 psi....hope yours is ok :)

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

I have Head studds in and only 4k miles on the new engine so the HG should be just fine. the engine was built to handle boost.

I guess i am going to put the old F/I back in and see what we can do with that. there has to be another issue here though. I just cant put my fnger on it quit yet.

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

oh one other thing. it was 105 degrees acourding to the electric thermostat by the computer. dont know how acurate that was but it was AT LEAST 98 degrees out side

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

Doesn't emanage ultimate have O2 skewing? If so no reason you won't be able to run srt4 injectors on less boost and this would leave you plenty of fuel at WOT and you wont' be maxxing out the injectors. Just a thought.. either way good luck and don't destroy that new built engine.

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

150? How can you possibly come up with that number? The regulator alone is at least 130....

The stock fuel pump is worthless. I wouldn't try running it at more than 5 or 6 psi, if that. If you do what I suggested, you will make the power you're looking for. You have way too many weak links in the setup right now to make decent power. You need to get the right parts to do what you're trying, there are way too many things to troubleshoot with the setup the way it is now.

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

Handling power and handling detonation are completely different things. You can destroy forged pistons and rods with enough detonation, I've seen it. Don't think that just because you have that done your engine will survive anything. Headstuds won't prevent the head from lifting with detonation...

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

As far as getting the right parts, besides the fuel system, i have the right parts. I will try and get a print out of the A/F and what it was doing and give you more info on it.

And i know you can destroy parts. it doesnt matter how new they are I know it happens to the best of them. What I am saying is that if you take out some compression you can replace it with a little more boost. it it wasnt for the turbo the car would make less than a stock civic @ 9:1 compression. Now I know i am no expert at this by any means and that why i ask for help. I will try to update the first post and be a little more specific once i get more info.

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

May I ask what your goals are this may clear up some questions? Are you shooting for 200whp safely or 300whp. Do you plan on running 15psi daily or was that just to see how much power you can make at that boost level?

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

I want a Daily use of 230-250. so i am literrally 100hp off my goal at this point. I just bought a second car about 1 hour ago so i can park this one after i pick it up this weekend (I am not rich, the damn car was only $545 tax and title!)

I have already set up to meet with my tuner on friday when i get off work and we are going to go over the parts and the build peice by peice until i am confident that it is the fuel and not something else. the actual power of the car was more like 175 HP. he told me before the car ever touched the dyno that his was a proven 10% lower than others and that it was long over due for a calobration. not to mention the 100+ degree weather here in Sout GA.

If i can make more power with less boost, then by all means i want to. But i feel as if i can run 13+PSI and pull it off.

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

Dial it back for now. I agree with andy you're short on gas, and I think its pretty dangerous to be running piggyback trying to run 10+ psi. All engine managements have their place... you wanna get up into higher boost levels, you need to step up the game.
Get it running 7psi for now just so you're sure it works, and upgrade the fuel and management, then try again. I'd also look for a leak in the system with the boost dropping off.

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

everyone loves K PRO!!!

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

yeah i am currently in the process of replaceing all of the worm clamps with "T" clamps. much more durable and you can tighten them with out the worry of braking them. i went throught the system last night and found a small leak where the nitrous was hooked up and fixed it. It wasnt very much of a leak but the turbos respons picked up a good bit this morning when i drove it.

I will back off the boost to about 12PSI, down from 15. but I wont be driving the car as much now thankfully.

Agian guys, thanks for all of your help and to anyone who posted in this thread. I learn something new every day it seems.

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

where is the cam gear set at?? where is the AFR curve on the dyno? is your tuner retarded? im surprised he even tried after seeing how lean it would run.

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

yah lol ur tuner coulda seriously fuked ur car up tuning WOT at 14s

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

WOT was corrected and was not running lean when we got through. I will get the final A?F ratio once i talk to him toda.

Re: Help- Built engine makes less power than before (dyno graph)
 

FYI I made 280.1 HP before I maxed the stock fuel pump out. This was at 17.5 PSI. The only mod I did to my fuel system was DeatschWerks 750cc injectors, kpro and I modded the stock in tank FPR with a boost ref line so it would increase pressure at a 1:1 ratio. I refused to do a return conversion because im in cali and it SUX out here with emissions testing… and cops actually know what to look for.