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"Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS For those looking to drop the car, please use this as reference. We have been answering the same stuff everyday. Warning! This will be updated as the information adds up or new ones are found, so check once in a while if you still have not decided your setup Anyone that wants to contribute to this information, please feel free to post. DO NOT POST QUESTIONS - THEY WILL BE IGNORED. Create your own thread if the info is not here. First things first that you need to ask yourself: 1) How much do you want to drop the car? (refer to the Member's rides section to see if you find the drop you want). 2) How much do you want to spend? This will change the range of options to springs and shocks, or to coilovers, if they will be bumpy or too stiff, etc. 3) With 1 and 2, need to find out if you want to save more and do it at once or do twice - your call, again. 4) Now, you need to find out if you want to keep the same ride as before. If yes, forget about the drop and drive happily the car until its' life ends or you seel it. All of the drop have compliances. You will get one or the other. soft and rolling car or a firm and stiff but much faster in cornering car. 5) That decided, either select the springs/coilovers that fits your needs/budget. Please refer to the honda spring rate thread for that (that is also a reference thread!!! Do not post questions, only additional info!) Notice that any spring that is supposed to lower the car and is well designed NEEDS to be stiffer. Think of it this way: when you lower, the suspension travel WILL be shorter. Therefore, you will have a reduced distance until the top portion of the suspension says to the lower portion: "- Pleased to finally meet you. I have been staring at you all my life". :D If the springs are not stiff, they will "meet" easier than before. Platonic love usually ends badly when they finally meet together. :D (ask the valves and pistons about it :D) Enough fooling around and up with the link! List of springs: https://www.civicforums.com/forums/4...reference.html How to select Springs? There are a lot of references around the web on how to select the spring rates that best fits your needs. I am still trying to find one that works well for our cars, though. some of them: http://www.competitionplus.com/2004_11_18/springs.html http://www.proshocks.com/srshocks/tech1a.htm http://www.sonicsprings.com/catalog/...pring_rate.php http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2739242 Dampers/Struts There is also the trick part that you need to find springs based on the available shock/damper on the market or revalve them to fit the springs... Though choice there. See one example below: http://www.club4ag.com/faq_and_tech_pages/Dampers.html most recommended struts in the forum for drops up to 1.7" - tokiko blues AKA HP's http://www.dezod.com/pd_tokico_high_...bluescivic.cfm https://www.civicforums.com/forums/m...-new-strut.jpghttps://www.civicforums.com/forums/m...-coilovert.jpg Want more info? kind of old, but our cars are too :D https://www.civicforums.com/forums/4...questions.html Additional Reference Thread Also, refer to this very useful thread (it's a sticky for a reason). Search for the coilover options there as well, - me myself am not very versed on them for civics (Thanks, robbclark1!) https://www.civicforums.com/forums/4...ease-read.html |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS Good stuff man, we were discussing how we needed something like this the other day. |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS 6) Now, the trick parts. When lowered, the springs are supposedly stiffer, so increased stress will be applied to the suspension components. a) The most prominent is the shocks/struts/dampers. No replacement stock will last for much long. They will blow prematurely. Some members were just lucky they did not blow yet. Minimum required: Tokiko Blues - they are recommended for up to 1.7" drop for a reason. The damper/shocks/struts are supposed to dampen the spring motion - they are the brakes for the springs, so if the springs are stiffer as previously mentioned, the damper needs to, or the springs will be overwhelmed by the springs and your car will go "boingo, boingo" at any bump. And if they do that, they will also move more and we have again the platonic love finally turned true - the dampers crash to the top of the suspension more and they will blow. Or they blow because the springs are asking too much from them. b) The second: rear camber - yes, like RobbClark1 said in the previous link (you still have not read it?!?) you will need rear camber kits for anything more than 1.3" drop. Fronts are just cheap so you do it anyways (warning: most shops do not know how to adjust the front bolts). c) As mentioned in item a), the additional stress will cause your stock components to fail earlier. Save for additional items before doing any suspension drop work! Inspect the suspension beforehand! Inspect and replace if necessary - bushings are visual, if they are torn, replace - others you need to pry them and see the play - if too much play, replace if needed. 1. Top mounts/hats - mine did start a clunk just after installing. I had to re-do the work the next weekend. Replace them if needed. If you have an 01, install 02 - they have metal bearings as opposed to plastic, as discussed here: https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...am-fed-up.html see the parts here https://www.civicforums.com/forums/m...-top-mount.bmp 2. LCA compliance bushings - they tend to go too. Replace them if needed - require a press to remove/install, or torches to remove/press to install - there were some using 3-jaw C-clamps too. Or just install new arms. Check here for more info on compliance bushings reapair (thanks, Sl33pyriceboi) https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...-bushings.html 3. Sway bar endlinks - they tend to make noise after install too - replace then if needed. Give preference to the moog one's, they are beefier and have greazing fittings. Check here for pictures of the Moog part (thanks, gearbox): https://www.civicforums.com/forums/4...ic-inside.html http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z.../mooglink1.jpg 4. Tie-rod ends - they tend to make noise too, so replace if needed. 5. Ball Joints - they tend to make noise. Replace if needed. Requires press to install unless they are the snap-ring replacement type. See more info here - some pics missing, but they are covered in the following replies. https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...necessary.html If all above is done and it still makes noises, check your engine mounts - they tend to go too... visual inspection to see for tears. Check here for more info on engine mounts repair (thanks, Sl33pyriceboi) https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...-bushings.html What?!? Did you think it is easy to install a dropped suspension?!? Or cheap? You get what you pay for. Unless you are doing the work yourself, so you have only yourself to blame for. Or you really have a very smart idea that have never tried before or a company very capable starting business that wants to make its name, that is. If you plan on doing the install yourself, here is a very comprehensive DIY spring install. https://www.civicforums.com/forums/4...info-pics.html |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS 1 Attachment(s) Phew, there are so much more... Add as you guys see fit too... I will be adding as i remember them too. Too many stuff that i forgot already... And then there is the coilover that i don't know much - i know for the miata, not much for the civic... Follow below a quick Eibach guide of the visual differences from a Pro-kit to a sport-kit - estimated as stock-1" drop/1.5 drop: Attachment 101624 also, another stray important info - 01-02 struts are 50 mm and crash bolts are 14mm. The other 7th gen are 55mm struts and crash bolts 16mm - they are not direct bolt-ons!!! |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS for the guys concerned about wheel rubbing because they are using 17" rims, well, here goes a little more extreme cases... Follow some quote from Max about 18" wheels in a 6th gen - who would have thought about it? not me... Always thought 17" would be the most... But they still harsh rides, as described by max.:
Originally Posted by maxtierney
(Post 4515456)
Thanks sdaidoji. Stock Height/Small Drop (one/two finger gap): You shouldn't have problems other than your speedo will be a little off. Your tires are almost 1/2" taller than the stock 185/65-14s for an EX. 205/35-18s might be a better choice, but I know the 215s are way more common. Good luck on finding a cheap set of 205s, too. There is a 205/30-18 tire, but only one company makes it. You better have some perfect roads in your neighborhood to rock these. No issues with wheel fitment, rims are 45 offset with a 73mm bore. Just get some 73 to 56.1 centric rings, or you'll get some high speed wobble. Dropped (flush/tuck): You have a crazy amount of camber to play with (the joys of double-wishbone fronts/multi-link rears). Depending on how far you are dropped, you'll need to adjust camber, as required. You'll probably have to roll your fenders (fronts, I am almost certain). You're gonna rub. I know this may sound a little funny coming from a guy rolling on 19s, but I just dont see that many with 96-00 Civics on 18s (not since the first couple of Vin Diesel and Paul Walker movies, anyways). And when I do, they're usually at/near stock height. Most with drops I see nowadays are on 15/16s, with the occasional 14s and 17s in the mix. Anyways, good luck to you! https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...s-too-big.html And here, for 19"in a 7th gen:
Originally Posted by maxtierney
(Post 4515135)
Running 19x7.5 Forged Traklites with 215/35/19s. 17.5lbs. Dropped 2" on Tein Flex Coilovers, 0857 Raised Steering Bracket, J's Racing Tie Rods and RCAs. Rolled Fenders. -2 degrees front / - 1.5 degrees rear camber. 8+ years with no issues, no rub. People don't realize that they're 19s until they ask (most common remark is that they look like 17s). I guess the flat black color doesn't make them look so oversized. My gunmetal set are another story. They look huge. I guess color does make difference. Try to go forged if you can. Cast 19s will push you well into the mid-20lb range. For reference, steelies are about 18 lbs. You think your Civic is slow now... I can still chirp in second gear with the forged, sometimes third.
Originally Posted by maxtierney
(Post 4515146)
I guess I should try to answer your question a little better. Stock Height - No Mods Required When I was running Neuspeed Sports / Tokico D-Specs (About 1.25" Drop) - I had to mildly roll the rear fenders. Started out at -1.5 degrees rear camber. Increasing about - .2 degrees/year, due to sag. I think I was well over -2 degrees with almost a 2" drop. Fronts were never an issue until... I dropped about 2.25" Front and 1.75" Rear (settled to about 2") w/ front camber at -2 and rear at about -1.5 or so. Had to roll fronts and remove the fender liners. You are limited to a handful of tire manufacturer choices. Not too many 215/35-19 players out there. A bit pricier too. Straight line performance takes a little hit. More so, with the cast wheels. Zigzags - no compromises. Stiffer sidewalls are plus for handling, but get ready to rattle some teeth. Women always complained about the ride hurting their boobs. I got a kick out of it though. Haha. I enjoy the look, that's why I did it. If that's what you want. Go for it, who cares about everyone else. It's your car, do what makes you happy. Your front brakes will looks TINY. The rear drums will look even more ridiculous. I swear I could see all the way to China, looking through the wheels from the side profile. However, cleaning the suspension and brakes are a piece of cake, through the spokes Gas milage does take a bit of a hit. On steelies I averaged about 400-420 miles per tank. With 19s, I averaged about 380-400 (even with relatively light 17.5lbs wheels). After the 12" Wilwood BBK, 350-370 per tank. Inertia, rotational mass and unsprung weight are killers. Typically, you can go one of two routes: Smaller and lighter for speed/efficiency or Bling for the opposite. With that said, my next purchase will be a set of 16" Regas or SW388s (12 lbs or so). I just found out they'll clear my calipers and rotors. Better MPGs, Cheaper Tires, a couple tenths shaved and some Russian/JDM Eye Candy, to boot. WIN/WIN I'll still rock the 19s in the summer. https://www.civicforums.com/forums/4...-they-fit.html Thanks and kudos for you, Max. You have been repped for both already :D Also, Lazlong reported some rubbing issues with 225/45R17, so be careful. they could rub suspension parts if dropped - could also realte to wheel off-set selection, though. |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS 1 Attachment(s) I'm going to add a little bit to this as well. If you decide to replace your ball joints you don't need a press it CAN be done at home. You need this tool that acts as a mini press and its a DIY job instantly: Attachment 101623 Just figure I'd throw my .2 cents in since I just replaced both mine... Most places rent this tool for free too so you don't have to buy it! |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS Finally got around to reading up on coilovers and precisely how they work. If you are wondering what a coilover is, or how it works, here is a great in-depth guide/resource: The Coilover Bible :tup: |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS Can't wait till this thread gets big and juicy. |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS I'll be making a comprehensive ball joint DIY tommorow ill make sure to link the DIY here :) |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS Coilovers... yeah, these are a whole different animals... Anyone that wants to just install and lower is easy, until the moment you start to play with the spring lengths/rates and all... Before doing that, I think a guy should at the least read some of the theory that is in here, such as corner weighting, cross weights, also some stuff like spring length and OD/ID, coilbind, tender springs, etc.: http://www.clubcivic.com/board/showthread.php?t=13203 |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS 2 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by tbohar
(Post 4530730)
I'll be making a comprehensive ball joint DIY tommorow ill make sure to link the DIY here :) Camber kits - how do they look like? Front - usually for the 7th gen they are just the top bolts of the knuckle. they do look like this. Attachment 101589 How to install them (thanks, Grey): https://www.civicforums.com/forums/7...it.htmlSetting This other one does explain which direction to place the washer tab as well. http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread...adjustment+DIY Rear -they will replace the top arms of the suspension, so they are more expensive, but this is the one you need the most. Attachment 101590 How to install them (thanks, Grey) https://www.civicforums.com/forums/7...t-details.html The reason is that the rear suspension arms have been designed to give you more negative camber than the fronts will give you from stock form. The more you lower the car, the more it will look like / \ "spread leg" - this provides the understeer behaviour fit for the average driver of the car - it will go straight in corners when pushed too far the limits in cornering (easier to correct than a car that oversteeer (could go to any direction depending on driver input...) Also, to who does not know, the rear camber kit is to actually reduce the negative camber on the DD cars. Extreme lowering and low off-set wheel setup will need front and rear to "tuck" the tires in the fenders so they will not rub on the fenders. Performance drivers will want them so they can dialin more camber in front and some camber rear to balance the car to rotate (reduce understeer) (my personal preference is -2 front and -0.5 to -1. degree rear on my setup - diff springs and shocks and sways might change the alignment sweet spot) To those wondering, yes, i do small adjustments on the alignments before heading to the autoX/track as long as i know the current alignment is not that off from previous machine alignment. there is a quick method described by Tootall (thanks, BTW) and me here: https://www.civicforums.com/forums/4...ed-advice.html |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS Phew... Unless i tackle the coilovers, for the moment i am running out of ideas to add here for the moment... Oh, added a few more info on shocks and springs. |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS I had forgotten to add a link to the sway bar list... Note that some kits offer a front/rear sways. Well, the front sway on the civic is just big enough. What our cars need are the REAR SWAY, not the fronts. Keep that in mind. Eibach kits are just too big in the front and veery smal - not nearly enough. This relates to the tendency to understeer in FWD/Front engine cars. Here you go, guys: https://www.civicforums.com/forums/4...-vehicles.html There is also this new one for suspension types - this is a work in progress, so bear with me:D There is some historical info in there accordingly to the generation as well. https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...what-they.html |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS 9 Attachment(s) Hunh, MelJ asked me about this, so i guess i will add to the thread: Chassis stiffeners: Front strut bar: There is a side note here: If you want the front strut bar/brace for improving performance, forget. It will give you maybe 0.1 sec. It does improve the feeling at the steering wheel and feed back, some torsion when crossing laterally speed bumps or driveway entries. My personal experinece in the civic and the miata was just that. Some might say it improved, but it is actually psychosomatic. I could tell better when the car was understeering, how much slip angle i had in the tires, what they were doing. But no performance gains except for more personal confidence due to improved feedback. (Psychological improvement is good for long races, though, for the driver). WARNING!!! most e-bay strut bars will interfere with aftermarket intakes (CAI/SRI). The only ones known to clear the intakes are the DC sports and the Neuspeed, closer to the firewall. 8th gen: Forget - the strut tower is almost under the windshield - they are close enough if not almost embedded to the firewall. This example is likely to kill you in a frontal crash... Attachment 101269 this one is full of bends and wrong direction of the cross section... Attachment 101270 7th gen: Struts, somewhat at a distance from the firewall, might benefit on torsion when passing one wheel per time over a bump. Improve the steering feel - you will get more feed back from steering and it will not be as sloppy. 4-6th gen Double wishbone - will get less improvements than the strut 7th gen. Here is a good reading on them. http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...wer+bar&page=2 But, in comparison, the miata does have the upper arm mounted in the subframe extension, while the honda is quite high and mounted to the chassis, so some improvements (more than the miata) can be expected. The distance from the firewall is similar to the 7th gen. Older models might have less stiffening in the firewall, so they might profit more from install. 3rd and earlier gen - they torsion bars, no need. How to select? Just as a reminder, this is what some do to bars that does not meet the reduce flex requirements: Attachment 101271 Preference/requirements: 1) One-piece 2) As straight as possible 3) Need to not to flex (or it will beat the whole reason to install it anyway...) Good design: 1) One-Piece (They do not flex, no pivoting points that change the geometry freely - just simply sturdy - tubular design resists flex to any direction): DC Sports: Attachment 101272 Neuspeed: Attachment 101273 2) Multi-piece: - will not allow bending/ flex at all either. very sturdy. Attachment 101274 3) Three-point design - supposed to be the best solution, will depend how strong your firewall is. This design below... hard to say, cross section IS wrong, but triangular design might save it? Attachment 101275 Not so good design: Why? the mounts are in angle towards the front of the car - these pieces will bend. Also, cross section is wider in the horizontal... They need to be sturdy in the vertical so as to keep the toweres apart... Pivot will also allow the geometry change - no resistance Attachment 101276 Pityful design: These will bend if you lean over it... Attachment 101277 The cross section direction is wrong, pivoted and have the bends that will just... increase the bending... |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS 1 Attachment(s) Rear: Still thinking about the low height of the towers and close to the wall... Are they going to give any improvement? Attachment 101262 |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS Added warning for the strut bar interfering with the aftermarket intakes. |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS there is a good input concerning rear strut bars from Maxtierney in here as well - read it and enjoy! :D https://www.civicforums.com/forums/4...-bar-em2s.html |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS better yet: i will add it here :D
Originally Posted by maxtierney
(Post 4546151)
I believe SDAIDOJI has a good thread on this topic. If I'm not mistaken, Carbing and Mugen offer a quality one piece rear upper bar. I've got a multi-piece Cusco installed. J's Racing makes a sweet multi-piece bar too. To be truthful, rears are more eye candy, than functional, due to the close proximity to the trunk frame brace. Carbing http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...rbing_rear.jpg http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...ng_rear_03.jpg Mugen http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...wrbar-fr_g.jpg Quality for these two are UNMATCHED, but you will pay for it. If money is an issue, go the Type R route.
Originally Posted by maxtierney
(Post 4546237)
I would get a front underbrace before I would get the rear upper. There is a lot more slop in the front that can be tidied up (BIG opening for the engine and tranny - means FLEX). You've taken care of the upper, but you've neglected the bottom. Carbing, Neuspeed and Tanabe are three off the top of my head. I've had the Neuspeed X and currently run the Tanabe Sustec. I was going to try out the Carbing, but didn't like the fact that it was made of steel (like the Neuspeed) - on top of the fact that it is painted white (Road Grime and Rust stand out more). http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...c5lowfront.jpg Being lowered, all the underbraces scrape, but at least the Sustec won't rust. Youl'll feel less steering and rebound slop, for sure. Max, feel free to add up to this thread anytime :D |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS Going back on the springs: I had forgotten to add that the 4 door version is heavier in the rear, so most of the springs available will have troubles of reverse rack, as in the rear will lower more than the fronts. If you have a heavy sub or system in the trunk, it will be even worse, so consider getting springs that are stiffer in the back from the list. |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS 1 Attachment(s) Heh! This is for the guys that come here saying: My car have something wrong in teh suspension! Or : suspension is making noises! Or: I can't align the car!!! Etc, etc. Well, i had a "small" encounter with a curb just after buying my miata (bald tires from PO, etc) and the car always was kinda strange to drive, some insecurity when turning - i can push the civc much harder than i can the miata. Very strange, actually, miatas are supposed to be much faster in corners. After a few years, since i was able to align it, i never looked too close to it. Well, i got new control arms (all 8), and was disassemblying them. Heh! found the culprit! Control arm to the knuckle bolt... Attachment 99579 So, bottom line is: whatever you ask here, replies are simply... worthless if the guy asking did not inpect nor did disassemble the parts. I put the new control arms side-to-side with the removed ones and they seem all perfect. What was not "perfect" was this bolt... And it was not visible from the outside. So, if you are going to ask what's wrong with the suspension, just don't, and disassemble it, inspect and then post here. Could be anything. |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS alignment: Hehehe! This is fer the guys that refuse to read anything in hard copy. From Honda tuning magazine - anyone could buy in the magazine stands :D http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/t..._si/index.html |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS geez, MB, yer going on a roll again too :D RSX parts swap to 7th gen: https://www.civicforums.com/forums/4...r-dc5-em2.html Edited so as to not to increase posting numbers without added info :P great info also,in the following post below,cpusrtesy of our own "Max"ter Yoda! :D :P:P |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS Wow. Been a while since I've visited this thread. Great info! Only thing I could possibly add is that people need to pay closer attention to things like lower knuckle and and crash bolt sizes when swapping out hubs, swaybars, bushings and coilovers (and mating them to OEM suspension components). e.g., People tend to forget that even though DC knuckles will fit the EM/ES rear trailing arms, the lower bushings are 2mm larger than the EM2 bolts. You won't really notice the slop, until you place the suspension under load. It's great that you swapped your rear bushings to new Energy Suspension Polys, but you totally defeated the purpose. You've just allowed 2mm of dynamic rear toe by getting the DC5 poly kit instead of the EM/ES kit (with the correct sized barrels for EM/ES bolts). I also see a lot of 01/02 owners that swap to EP3/DC5 coilovers and are happy using front reducer washers (from K2 or Tein). If you're serious about tracking, I'd pick up a set of EP3 knuckles and install the larger bolts. You are acheiving greater mechanical strength this way, not just a stop gap. The beefier front crash bolts don't hurt either. Lastly, don't ever swap in a DC (OEM or aftermarket) front sway. You are greatly reducing your exhaust clearance with this swap. It's the other way around. DC5 owners swap to EM/ES front sways for two reasons. Smaller diameters and/or better clearance. Hope this makes sense to you. Maybe, I won't get flamed for suggesting that you go the more expensive/complicated route either. Haha! But, if you're serious about your handling performance, the only corners you want to cut are on the track. :tup: |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS 4 Attachment(s) found these online, so decided to share :D Attachment 92735 Attachment 92736 Attachment 92737 Attachment 92738 |
Re: "Dropping" your car basics - reference - DO NOT POST QUESTIONS 6 Attachment(s) just realized I never put my fore vs after... Eibach pro , 1 inch lowering. before: Attachment 92571 after Attachment 92572 before: Attachment 92573 after: Attachment 92574 even with stock sized wheels, it will be good. Attachment 92575 side view with 205/55R16: Attachment 92576 |
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