Random no start issues
 

I have searched around and cannot seem to find the exact issue I am having. Any help would be appreciated.

1996 Civic DX Sedan
Manual Trans. 215k miles (runs like a top otherwise)

Problem:
Randomly I will go to start the car and when I turn the key to the Start position I get a single click from the steering/fuse box area, and all the electrics in the car go dead. Radio, cluster lights, everything. Give it a few minutes and sometimes it will turn right over like nothing happened, other days I have to wait hours before it will behave again.

I already tried the FSM process for testing the Ignition switch and when this issue occured (single click, power dies), it would fail in both the On and Start positions. When it starts normally (turn key, car cranks over) and I test it everything passes. :hithead:

Anyone have experience with this? Considering what I paid for the car I don't want to just start throwing parts at it. Other than that the car runs and drives better than you would expect for a 17-18 year old car that has been a family hand me down prior to me owning it.

Misc stuff: New Battery, New cables, New connectors, Voltage everywhere tests good for battery and alternator function, starter, etc all checks out. Cleaned all the connectors, checked wires, no corrosion.

Re: Random no start issues
 

Yup.

ALL dead? Everything? Headlights too?
You are losing battery power. Bad connection somewhere is the usual cause.
Either positive or negative side.
Battery, cables, connections.
At the battery, fusebox, or ground connections on the battery, body or powertrain.
No it doesn't. If it did, you wouldn't have this problem.

Your testing must be done under a load (cranking), because that's when the problem shows up.


(If you have any of these cheap replacement battery cable ends in the pic, they are always suspect first, and if your wires have been corroded they are suspect too. Everything needs to be clean, shiny and tight for good contact.)
http://www.got.net/~danj/fiat/drop.jpg

This handy pic shows testing for voltage drop between the battery post and the cable.
This will test connection between the battery post and clamp, and clamp to cable all at once.

Sitting still with no electrical load, this test will give a volt reading of zero on the meter, because both probes are on the same circuit (looks like a negative in the pic, no matter).....


If you crank the starter and this test shows battery voltage on the meter --- even though you are probing all on the same circuit, (positive OR negative, this test applies to all) you have a bad connection between the tester tips.

This is the method used to track down a bad connection, but you have to test while the problem is acting up.


I'd start my test with one meter tip on battery positive post and the other meter tip on the bolted battery cable connection in the engine compartment fusebox. Have someone crank the starter (twist the key and hold it there if it acts up), hopefully it acts up while I have the tester on it.



Another easy check is to feel the connections immediately after it acted up. Hold the key in the cranking position for maybe 5-10 seconds, then go feel for hot spots at the cables. (resistance creates heat under a load)



Now that I think about it.... if you have this type of COLORED cable end
http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/he..._cable_end.jpg

You have to scrape the paint off where the cable wires and/or battery post have to make contact with the clamp.
The pretty red or black paint doesn't conduct electricity worth a sh!t.


HTH

Re: Random no start issues
 

Anything that would normally come on only when the ignition is ACC/ON, ie Gauge cluster, interior lights, radio, door chime, etc. Headlights will still turn on.
Its hard to predict when it will happen also. Car acts completely normal when I put the key in, turns to ACC, no issues, everything comes on. Turn the key to On, no problems.
Once I turn the key to START is when I get the single click and it all cuts out.

I can't even get to the cranking point as when I turn the key to the START position to engage the starter, it just clicks(relay/fuse/switch sound) and it all cuts out.
When I was doing the FSM checks on the Ignition Switch, I found that when I unplugged the 5 prong connector from the under dash fuse panel(brown colored, from/to ignition switch harness) Everything would come back on, as soon as I plugged it back in, all dead.

I already went through and checked all my cables, ground points, clamp points on the terminals. Everything got sanded to bare metal and reconnected clean and tight. Everything in that part of the system is brand new as I thought those may be the issue. All replaced, still randomly cuts out.

Re: Random no start issues
 

You are still losing one of the power feeds when this happens, but if the headlights still work then it shouldn't be battery cables....

Hazard lights work or not?
Need to know what all still does work when it happens so I can try to find a common point to all affected.
Gonna guess a cracked fuse at this point, but not which one yet.

Can you tell me what all started working when you DISconnected the ignition switch harness?

I'll have to do some looking, it will be a while before I can get to it today. 2nd turkey day today LOL.

Re: Random no start issues
 

I'll check all that out when I get home this evening. At work currently. I never even thought to check the fuses but it makes sense that a cracked one could cause intermittent failures like this. I will see if it wants to be a little twerp tonight and if so Ill get some answers for you. My gut feeling is leaning towards Ignition Switch or Relay based on the behavior, but who knows. I'm not as familiar with the Civic as I am with my Stratus coupe.
The Stratus is a big fan of the corrosion/bad ground no starts, its a Dodge(subishi) thing.

Re: Random no start issues
 

If you have a cracked fuse, I'd hope you could wiggle and tap on them and get the problem to act up or go away, that would at least tell you if you are in the right area.


If the 80A main fuse is going open randomly, the only things that should work WHILE everything else quits are the horn, brake lights, and hazard lights (fuses 52, 53).

Ignition switch is fed by a medium size square 40A fuse #42, and that fuse gets power from the 80A main fuse.

Square fuse like this
http://i.ebayimg.com/14/!B80BP3gBWk~...pswBm!~~_1.JPG
(You can carefully pry the clear lens off to touch the fuse metal strip itself. I have found several of this type with the metal strip broken on older cars.)

All of these fuses get their power from the 80A main fuse too:
43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51,
54, 55, 56, 57.
Headlights run on fuse 48,
some part of the interior lights is run on fuse 43.

(A DX may not use many of these fuses)

Inside the engine compartment fusebox, check all of the screws that secure the large fuses, and on the 2 cables that go into the box.
everything else quits?

Re: Random no start issues
 

Quick update: Had a couple spare minutes before I went to work today so I tried to figure out what is/isn't working.

ACC/ON/Start position: Completely dead: Gauges including lights, horn, radio. Nothing would turn on.
ACC/ON/Start w/ignition 5 pin plug unhooked: No change
ACC/ON/Start w/ignition 7 pin plug unhooked: No change

Ran out of time before I could check with the ignition switch completely disconnected on both wires. I'll check the fuses and relays tonight/tomorrow am and post that info too.

I have a fuse tester but how do you test those 40/80A relays? and any others I should check apart from the two in the hood fuse box?

Re: Random no start issues
 

Did the horn really work in the first place? Make sure it really does work or else we can't use that as an indicator of anything when everything goes dead. (I'll assume it does work normally here)

If the horn does not work when all goes dead (and no headlights either), then you lost battery power to the 80A main fuse (99.9% sure, according to my wire diagram). Somewhere between the battery positive post and the 80A fuse.

Check all of the pos battery cable, including where the white cable enters the engine compartment fusebox and the screws that hold down the big fuses and bus bars in that box.






What's a fuse tester? (LOL)
I use a stupid simple 12V test light (one of the simplest circuit testers available) 98% of the time, and I test on live and loaded circuits.

http://www.2carpros.com/images/artic...test_light.jpg
I could use a light bulb (#194 is preferred) and a piece of wire to do this, if I had to...and I have.

Rarely do I need to go with anything higher tech for tracking this particular problem.


If you can use a test light to check the small fuses (know the principles of the test) you can pop the lenses off of the big fuses and use the test light again in the same manner....if you are careful.


Random Googles
http://autorepair.about.com/od/troub...rcuit-tstr.htm

http://www.perr.com/tip26.html

[autostream]http://autostream.com/ibcivicforums/?page_type=firebirdplayerthumbnail&framepage=1459& transactionid=1386029986-98214246123&posted_by=_www.civicforums.com&youtube _video_id=ksrsXwwukFc[/autostream]

Re: Random no start issues
 

As you may be able to tell, auto electrical is not my strong point. I really do appreciate the help. Ill bring the battery in tonight to put it on the charger just to rule out the possiblity that its dead/weak and start at the battery cables and work my way back tomorrow morning.
And the fuse tester I mentioned is just a little yellow plastic thing I have from some all purpose tool kit I got. Has two contact points that you touch to the fuse, light comes on, its good. Good for a glovebox trouble kit to go with my Bluetooth OBD2 reader (best $30 I have EVER spent)

Re: Random no start issues
 

Don't worry, probably 3/4* of the people in the industry turning wrenches for a paycheck don't understand it either. Dead serious, electricity is like the "final frontier" of vehicle repair.

You wouldn't believe how many people can't even tell when NOT ALL of the brake lights work, and you don't have to know sh!t about electricity for that.


I know what one is. It's not something I would ever use though.




*RNIPOOMA

Re: Random no start issues
 

Well after all that I found what I think is the issue:
tucked away into one of the Pos. Cables was a third aftermarket cable that I wasn't aware of (hidden well, inside the ribbed tubing and all). This cable, while I have no idea whats its for, has a 30A inline fuse and comes out of the tubing where it connects into the fuse box and then runs through the hole in the firewall into the cabin. I can only assume its the remnants of a stereo system (which explains the random stereo wires peaking out of the carpet in odd locations). This cable had a shitty connection inside the Pos. Battery terminal. After I tore it all apart, stripped some clean wire and reconnected everything, turned right over no issues.

How I found it? I went to check the voltage on the battery and the connectors and when I touched the multimeter to the Pos. terminal and the wires going to the fuse box, suddenly the car came to life.

On my way to work today I'm going to stop at the parts store and get all new terminals, fuses, and such and redo the connections with quality parts, not $3 Autostore shit.

I hate previous owners.....


Anywho, Thanks a ton for the help!!! I'll be back if it acts up again.