Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

Ok, so, bear with me, because this post is going to be fairly lengthy. I'm calling on all of my civic brothers for this one.

Let me sum up the events that have transpired. My car is a 2003 Civic EX 4Dr.

July 2011. I went to Big-O tires in Colorado (Where I live) to get a new wheel stud pressed in on my passenger side in the front.. In the process, they cross threaded my 32MM nut on the hub, which caused some rubbing on my brake rotor. Big-O replaced my axle with no questions asked. They accepted all fault, and actually listened to me since I knew what I was talking about. Axle was from NAPA, so I wasn't too worried about quality. For the rest of the summer, 2000+ miles I had no problems.

Aug 2011. I began my trek to Hastings, Nebraska to start my glorious college career. The drive for me is 400+miles, so it was about 6.5 hours to get there. I was driving my car, with my dad following, when about 40 miles from my destination, the 5th gear on my civic started to pop out. Every few miles, It would pop out of 5th gear, and 5th gear only. I did my research, and found out that it was simply a flaw with our 7th gen civics. About 3 weeks of college went by, and I was arranging to get my gear fixed, when one day, I was backing out of my parking spot, when my clutch dropped. I had my car towed by the local AAA service, (gotta love free towing). This AAA towing company was the one who would end up doing my repairs. They take it away, and I tell the guy I wanted a ceramic clutch, since (at the time) I was planning a turbo build. Says he can put in a stronger clutch, that will not reduce drivability. (calls it a "street racing clutch")

Sep 2011. Its been nearly 6 weeks, and I just got my car back. $2500 later. They kept telling me that they were "waiting on parts". I knew a local who had a tie rod snap on his ram 3500, and it was fixed in 24 hours. Regardless though, I try to drive the car, and the clutch is hard as hell. (Later I would find out that he put in a full racing clutch.) I deal with the clutch for the time being, and drive with it.

Nov 2011. Its a nice warm November day, and I decide to take the car out. There is a little back country road, where the posted limit it 75. I figure I let the civic wide open, since I hadn't done so for the last month to break the clutch in. As I accelerate, I shift into 4th gear, but as soon as I let off the clutch, I hear a bang with grinding sounds. I instantly lost power to the wheels, and nearly go off the road. I get out, and fluid everywhere. No idea what happened, but I called the towing company again, and they tow it. Now, I was a little suspicious of this happening, since they were the ones who fixed my tranny less than 1000 miles before. I thought maybe they didn't seal the tranny or something. This happened right before I was to take the train back to Colorado. So I left my car with them over break. I get a call saying the "half shaft came out." I went down to them as soon as I got back into town. They kept telling me that the company who put the axle in previously put one in that was not correct for the car. I was pissed, so I didn't even think about who the last person who actually pulled my CV was. I had them fix it, which was another 200+tax, but being the suspicious man I am, I ended up buying the axle from them (just in case) for another 100+tax. After talking to one of my buddies at UTI, I realized that this local place is f***ing me over.

Dec 2011. I go to the Honda dealership 30 mins away from Hastings, and take the axle with me. They look it over, and tell me that it IS the correct axle for my car, but it looks like it was shaved down. I really start to get angry then. I couldn't do anything then, since finals were coming up, so I waited till after Christmas to go back.

Jan 2012. I go into the shop, all relaxed and what not, and simply ask for a copy of my receipt for the CV repair. The head mechanic walks out with a smirk on his face asking me "what we were doing to the civic this time." I told him straight up that I took the CV to a dealership, and they said it was correct. He changed his story this time, telling me that they saw it was too short when they pulled it out. I asked him why they didn't alert me of this in the first place when my tranny was pulled. His answer was "We missed it." I know they didnt put it in right. Theres no way an axle goes for 2000+miles, gets pulled, re inserted then goes out if it was messed up from the start. I was furious, but I walked out the door, without saying anything else. This is where I am today.


Today. I need some advice from you guys. Do I have enough here for a court case against the guy? I mean, my friggin CV axle came out at highway speeds, and they charged me to fix something they obviously messed up in the first place. Is it the classy thing to put someone life in danger, and charge them for surviving? Do I have a chance to stop this from happening to anyone else, and at least recoup the money that this shop has stolen from me? Calling on all 7th gen owners, and any other civic owners who might have advice. The main reason I stopped the turbo build is because of all of this, and all of my money getting sucked right out of me. Help a brother out?:help:

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm................ I don't know much about American law my friend so I can't answer your question. However your best bet is to talk to a lawyer and find out if he thinks you can win! GOOD LUCK! That is Total BS

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

That's the beauty of the American system- you can sue anybody for anything. Whether the judge throws it out of court is a completely different question.

Asking a lawyer is the best advice right now. If he says you have a case then take it to small claims court so the douche can't hide behind a lawyer and will have to explain himself.

Also, if you're going to court make absolutely sure that you have as much evidence as you can find.

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

I've learned a lot at my time in the automotive program at sinclair. They've also taught us quite a bit about the law as it relates to us. Pretty much as far as a judge is concerned the mechanic is the expert. He should have fixed it the first time, and the fact that it caused a safety issue at highway speed is enough that every bit of liability falls squarely upon his shoulders.

Ex. http://www.wpxi.com/news/news/mechan...-kills-/nGZFH/

He touched it last he's responsible.

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on T.V.!

July 2011. I went to Big-O tires in Colorado (Where I live) to get a new wheel stud pressed in on my passenger side in the front.. In the process, they cross threaded my 32MM nut on the hub,

This is where it went wrong. I can replace a wheel stud after removing the brake rotor in most cases. I would have to see it before saying that about your particular situation.

the 5th gear on my civic started to pop out.

I wonder if the trans got refilled after the axle was pulled.


(gotta love free towing).

That comes with a price......

This AAA towing company was the one who would end up doing my repairs.
There's the price.
Did the tow truck driver "direct you" to his shop of choice?
I believe kickbacks from a shop to the tow truck driver is quite unlawful.


You know absolutely nothing about them.
Competent and ethical, or a barrel of monkeys.

Guess you are finding out....


had a tie rod snap on his ram 3500, and it was fixed in 24 hours

Completely different work scope, and has absolutely nothing to do with your car or your story.
You ever build a transmission yourself? I didn't think so.
Doing it at school is nothing like doing it in real life.

"half shaft came out."

It came out for a reason.
Could be wrong part.
Could be a wrecked car.
Could be motor mounts.
Could be something else.
*I* have no way of knowing.
Could be the snap ring that holds it in the trans.
You are already dealing with aftermarket parts, so it's anyones guess.

We can't see it, we can't verify it. We only have your story, and there are two sides to every story.

I think the snap ring should have been replaced after every time an axle gets pulled out of the trans (consult a Genuine Honda service manual to find out for sure), but it is RARELY done that way in the real world. You may or may not even be able to use an OEM snap ring on an aftermarket axle anyway, so it could be a moot point.

it IS the correct axle for my car

How did they determine this?

but it looks like it was shaved down.

WTF did they see that caused them to make this statement?
And who in the hell has the capability to "shave down" an axle, and why?

See my story below...

I know they didnt put it in right.

Do YOU know how to put an axle in? Do YOU know what holds it in?
This statement does not hold water.

Theres no way an axle goes for 2000+miles, gets pulled, re inserted then goes out if it was messed up from the start.

Yes, it can.
I have seen it before.
It didn't fail until you put it under more stress than you had in the past. The "Weakest Link broke."



Had a local shop replace an axle in a Mitsu, it was about 3/4" too short. Lasted a couple months. Sheared the axle stub at the groove for the snap ring when it popped out. The small piece left in the trans when it sheared off got shoved out the side of the case by the differential. The shop stepped up to the plate and covered the entire bill for the repairs, and it wasn't cheap.

I cannot say that is what happened to your car. This is just one example of an axle related failure that I have dealt with.




I have other stories too:

Pops out because it was wrecked in the past, drivetrain shifted to one side.

Axle locked in the trans because of a snap ring too big... Ruined a trans, broke the case trying to get it out.

Maybe more.


After talking to one of my buddies at UTI, I realized that this local place is f***ing me over.

May be true, but still irrelevant. Not valid legal material.

Do I have enough here for a court case against the guy?

You got pics and all documentation?
You have a case. No way of knowing if you have a winning case.


You are getting an education:
Did you learn anything about shops, mechanics, and business from this experience?
If so, what have you learned? (This is an essay question, 300 words or more please.)

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

1234

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

Huh?

the honda service manual states that to correctly have a stud pressed, you should remove the hub from the axle.

So what? The book isn't the Bible. There can be other ways to accomplish the same outcome.


ill upload pictures when i get back to college tomorrow. I still have the axle

That might make more sense, I'll wait.

but it looks like it was shaved down.

Any chance of getting side-by-side pics, comparing good and bad?

you failed to ask me if i put the car under load previously. The same day i had the original axle replaced, i went wot going through the mountains probably 50 times.

Ah, true. My assumption, my bad.

By no means was the cv the weakest link before my transmission was rebuilt.

But the snap ring may have been.

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

Really not being helpful

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

Yeah, sorry.
I read that as your entire reply at first glance.
And I didn't understand the 1234 at all.

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

Bumping

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

ezone is playing the devil's advocate.
it is what could be used against you, so i guess he IS being very very helpful...

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

I'm not a person that PRACTICES law.
I do not PRACTICE auto repair, either.
I do not like to work on cars.
I like to fix them.

I am a problem solver. I am a troubleshooter. My specialty areas are sort of limited, but my knowledge is rather vast.
I am not into auto forensics, but I have been involved in the past.
I will not be a witness to the prostitution.
I don't really want to see the inside of a courtroom for any reason.

I would want to get to the bottom of the problem first--- root cause and all.
Just the facts, ma'am. Just the facts.
I'm not really trying to establish a chain of events here but it is quite helpful in figuring stuff out.

Maybe the kid is way off base and don't have a leg to stand on.
Maybe it's just a bunch of bad decisions.
Or bad parts.
Too many maybes to point fingers yet.

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

Still waiting for this.

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

bwaaaaaahahahaha!
yep, i understand, my choice of words was bad, it was not what yeh were trying to do and i fully understand that
apologies, i jus' thought he would understand better.
yer good, ezone. yeh know i do have lots of respect for you :D

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

I was serious about that which you quoted above.


Nah, you're fine. I just went off on a tangent again. Maybe I need meds adjusted.

Thanx

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

yeah, and chozoboy is also a good kid, so go easy on him too :D (reinforce again that it was, as informed, good for "what could be used against" too.) Yeah, i work in a corporate environment, so plans and schemes behind plans and schemes, but i am just a humbly mechanical engineer trying to do it right... envy you, in some ways... no political, legal items, to take care of, on daily basis, and cover the other teammates or doing some "undercover" investigation while they cover for you, and meanwhile one of the teammates that is clueless backstabs you both (that one is about to be fired for lack of team work, BTW, so life will become easier...)...
/ rant, sorry, back to business...

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

Sounds like a typical car dealership too. LOL

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

^ lol

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

Try working at one of the small places. They're so cutthroat I'd rather work with drug dealers.

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

I am in a small place. There are 2 long term techs and a lubie on this car line right now. The dealership has other car lines though. Honda is in its own building.

Most of my career has been in smaller places. That's all there are here. I'm not in a metro area. The biggest single shop I've worked in had about 9 techs, IIRC.

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

Naw, I mean LITTLE lots. Think tote-the-note places. They're like the plague here and they seem to prey on the immigrants and poor.

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

Buy here pay here places? Haven't worked AT any, but have done work for a few. They somehow live on ChinaZone parts, and can't comprehend why anyone would want to use factory parts (unless there is no other possible choice). Even after repeated failures of said cheapass parts. And factory is sometimes even cheaper.

Some bean counters can ONLY see the first column of numbers.




I did work at a large used car lot that turned into a new car dealership while I was there. Probably the best job I've had. I had pull, man. Free to do what I wanted, the shop was like MY OWN. Keys, alarm codes, I could be there any time, day or night. Completely separate from the sales end, they didn't have much of any say-so in what went on in the shop. I was free to work on stuff for friends and family. I stored my low inside the shop each winter. Kept my spare cars there in the parking lot. As long as I did the work that came in the front door during the day, I was free to do whatever I wanted. In my bay I had Cable TV/VCR/home stereo/telephones/PA/intercom, interweb when interweb was still fresh and new, subs (from the lowrider while it was getting painted) lounge chair, fridge.....home away from home. All work stopped at 3:30 for Rocky and Bullwinkle!


We DO have a regular used car lot owner that really DOES try to take care of cars before they are sold. Timing belts, fixing stuff that he can't do on his own. Small town car lot a half hour away from us. Ethical, and trying to make an honest living. I would not hesitate to send my friends to him.

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

What I have learned so far, is that without enough evidence, my case will hold no water. It cannot simply be a testimony, but I need physical evidence to support my claims. To start, I should get a side to side comparison of a brand new passenger side axle for my 2003 civic, and the axle I have in my possession that was previously in my car. When looking at both of these, I need to look carefully and note the differences between the two. I can safely conclude that the axle that is in my position was pulled from my car, since I purchased it back from the same shop who fixed it after it went out. From the receipts when I had the axle replaced over the summer, I can also conclude that the first shop stated that the axle that was used was brand new, OEM quality. I do need to ask around to other local mechanics, (including ones who specialize in Honda) and see how “easy” it would be to miss the fact that an axle was too short and/or damaged, and why it would be reinserted at all. From my physical observations, the snap ring looks as if it is not there at all. The most important thing I can do though is gather all the facts, so I have enough physical and factual evidence to support myself. Circumstantial evidence will not help my case whatsoever. My best course of action is take things slow and steady, but not let off my guns, because while the facts begin to add up in my eyes, that doesn’t mean the same will be true in the court of law. I will not plan on approaching this repair shop by myself, but will seek guidance from an actual lawyer, who specializes in such cases.

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

Only 5 hours of sleep on a weekend night.
Damn, I need coffee......

I should tell you to first ask a real lawyer if your essay is correct from a legal standpoint.
Good job though. I'm impressed with the use of capital letters and punctuation. That alone is refreshing. Overall far better than the usual internet drivel I read on a daily basis. +1 for that.

Possession, not position.

//Grammar Nazi


I can tell you from my experience that it can be quite easy to overlook or miss an axle length issue when the difference is only minimal. Most of the time we look at the configuration to make the assumption that it is correct. A fresh axle can be full of grease which can make it difficult to fully compress the joints to assess proper length.

"why it would be reinserted at all" (if I am reading into this part correctly, re: the snap ring) Because it is common practice and widely accepted, regardless of what a proper Honda shop manual says about it.
Go around to a few parts stores and try to purchase that snap ring as a separate item by itself, you may understand what I mean.
Chances are good that nobody will have it, and they have never sold one.
Also as I may have mentioned earlier, an OEM snap ring may not even fit an aftermarket axle. I have seen this situation first hand.

In fact, here is a C&P from Hondas ISIS site re: driveshaft installation:
1. Install a new set ring onto the set ring groove of the driveshaft.
2. Clean the areas where the driveshaft contacts the differential thoroughly with solvent or brake cleaner, and dry with compressed air. Insert the inboard end (A) of the driveshaft into the differential (B) until the set ring (C) locks in the groove (D).
(The rest is about installing the other end of the axle and suspension, not the area in question.)


Now, if the snap ring was completely missing, as you say it is now, that should have been readily apparent whenever the axle was out of the trans last, had it been missing at that time. It would have never "locked in" to the transmission without it. I seriously doubt it would have lasted for a trip around the block without it, let alone 2000 miles or whatever you had driven before this problem became apparent.






Your issue here is not about your life being in danger. You had plenty of time to coast to the side of the road safely after the car lost power. If you "nearly go off the road" then you weren't in control of your machine.

Your issue may not necessarily be in workmanship of the repair itself, although "best practices" may not have been followed. Common practices were, I assume.

It appears (to me) that your main issue is the failure of the aftermarket axle and possible subsequent damage to the transmission, and the handling of that situation by the shop.

Was it an incorrect axle? There are at least 3 versions available for different transmission options, plus more options for ABS equipped or not. The factory site also lists even more choices for the country the car was built in.
The aftermarket consolidates some of those choices too.
Could it have been a wrong axle? Sure. Got the box it came in? What if it was mis-packaged? Just some thoughts here, and I have seen it happen.

What is their (the shops') written warranty policy on repairs made?
Did they not uphold their end of that written policy?
I believe this may be the only aspect you can focus on for a legitimate legal claim. Consult a real practicing lawyer about this.

Circumstantial/your friends say/etc., you might check with the BBB and other places to check for complaints about the business. May or may not be of any legal value.



Back to the car itself.....

I am still really interested in seeing the end of the axle that has been damaged, even if it is by itself.
If the end of the axle has been sheared off where the snap ring groove was, then where did the missing pieces go? (They normally stay inside the transmission when this happens.)
If it sheared off at the groove, it would have sheared off as the axle slid outward while under a load, as it was the last area to still be engaged to the differential gear. The machined snap ring groove became the weakest area.
Did it punch a hole in the cast aluminum transmission case and cause serious damage and fluid loss?

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

point - most thinks they do not change the length, think as solid, which is not the case.

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

I'm no expert but you asked for advice. Unless you have a lawyer that will work for free (brother, father, wife, etc) I doubt it will be cost effective. I would think most lawyers will want a retainer up front that is about as much as the repair cost you. If you win you may be able to recover the cost of suing them but if you lose you are out the cost of your lawyer. The one advantage to suing is the other party has to pay for a lawyer as well so it is costing them as much as you.

You could also check into small claims court. I believe in most cases lawyers are not allowed so it would be just you and the owner of the shop. The advantage is it only cost you as much as the case filing fee and he has to show up which wastes his time. If he doesn't show, you win. If you do get to present your case, the judge will probably be a little less strict so you may have a better chance presenting the facts and your case.

The last consideration is that if you do win you still have to collect and that can be a problem as well.

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

Attachment 96717
Attachment 96718
Attachment 96719
Attachment 96720

Here are the photos. Note the discoloration around the half way point up the shaft, and the condition of whats left of the snap ring.

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

This pic shows pretty good what I wanted to see.
The color, bluing (if that's what you mean) in places is normal from the heat treating process.

The splines are what I wanted to see.

It looks like the snap ring is still in place, it just has been beat to death.

This looks like the shaft ran for a while only half engaged, judging from the shiny wear on the upper half of the splines, and the tips of the still intact splines have been twisted in the direction of forward.....then it slipped all the way to the very end and sheared the tips of the splines off under a load (a 1/4inch of engagement is not enough, apparently)....You got lucky there, the ones I have seen just twisted the end of the shaft completely off where the snap ring is. That's when REAL damage happens.

No way of telling if the snap ring didn't hold, or if it was an installation error.
Could have been either one.
I don't want to speculate or even guess.
Jeez, it's just too easy to get it all the way in and locked in place though.
But I have seen it happen both ways.
It ran only halfway engaged for a significant amount of time/miles to cause the wear to the splines like that.

Thanx for the pics. I guess it doesn't help your case any, but answers my curiosity.

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

Do I have a case against either shops? The one who put the axle in originally, or the one who pulled it and put it back in?

Re: Legal Advice? Help Needed. Calling all Members.
 

Those are questions for a real lawyer.

I bet he would tell you that you have to prove negligence or malice, not ignorance.

"Sufficient cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice."


Also, have you compared axle length with another unit, either OE or aftermarket? Remember, you have to plunge (compress) the joints to compare length. Was it too short after all?