How should you set up your car for touge?
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DIY King
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How should you set up your car for touge?
touge AKA mountain racing
What works and what doesn't? Smaller size wheels, so that you get more rubber to smooth out all of those bumps? Springs that aren't as stiff? Ride height that's higher than stock? No anti-roll bars? No strut bars? What works and what doesn't? Anyone?
What works and what doesn't? Smaller size wheels, so that you get more rubber to smooth out all of those bumps? Springs that aren't as stiff? Ride height that's higher than stock? No anti-roll bars? No strut bars? What works and what doesn't? Anyone?
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DIY King
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Rep Power: 419 Too late. LOL There's this yearly event up in NH and last year I went and I loved it. This year I'm going again, I just want to have a car that's set up well for those conditions. 
Autocross Junky
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Is it in the dirt, or on asphalt?
for dirt get a set of these Rally tires Probably in 14"
Asphalt, These
Tires are your best friend.
for dirt get a set of these Rally tires Probably in 14"
Asphalt, These
Tires are your best friend.
Last edited by Zzyzx; Jun 5, 2003 at 01:12 PM.
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Rep Power: 419 Zzyzx: It'll be on asphalt. So you think that the tires will play the biggest role? I'll take that into consideration. I want to look for the lowest tread life rating possible for maximum grip, right? I think I'de only put those suckers on for the event though. Damn, 50 tread rating!? I think that beats my current 280. LOL
Boilermaker1: Yeah... Something like that anyway.
See, last time I went I didn't have a rear sway bar or strut bars. Plus my front shocks were a little too worn. Now I have new front shocks, front and rear strut bars, and an upgraded front strut bar as well as a rear strut bar with a tie bar.
Anyway, any other tips? Oh yeah, last time I went my hands were gettin' all sweaty and ****. I will have gloves this time.
I think I'de only put those suckers on for the event though. Damn, 50 tread rating!? I think that beats my current 280. LOLBoilermaker1: Yeah... Something like that anyway.
See, last time I went I didn't have a rear sway bar or strut bars. Plus my front shocks were a little too worn. Now I have new front shocks, front and rear strut bars, and an upgraded front strut bar as well as a rear strut bar with a tie bar.Anyway, any other tips? Oh yeah, last time I went my hands were gettin' all sweaty and ****. I will have gloves this time.
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DIY King
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Rep Power: 419 Originally posted by Boilermaker1
And if you get those tires... they've gotta be shaved or heat cycled before you use them... just so you know.
And if you get those tires... they've gotta be shaved or heat cycled before you use them... just so you know.
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Rep Power: 419 Originally posted by noname
Grey:
when is it!
can't wait to test out my new suspension
Grey:
when is it!
can't wait to test out my new suspension
Right now it's crappy weather, so I think they'll only do it when it's warmer out. 
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Leading tire manufacturers including BFGoodrich, Kumho and Yokohama offer competition type tires that qualify as DOT legal for street use. Autocrossing, race days, driving schools and other racing venues demand this category of tire for maximum performance. But like any high performance part, these tires require careful break in to achieve the full benefit of their construction.
A competition tire is built with a highly sophisticated tread compound, capable of sustaining traction throughout a much wider temperature range, but also extremely sensitive to the first heat cycle of its use. During this cycle, if controlled precisely, the tread compound stretches as it heats, breaking the weaker, shorter molecular bonds within the rubber. The benefit of this process is a tread compound that lasts longer and provides better traction. However, if the first cycle is not performed correctly, the tread may develop irregular compounding, leading to poor wear and inconsistent traction.
In the past, many racers tried to “heat cycle” their own tires with mixed results. Besides the inconsistency, there was the inconvenience of mounting and dismounting the tires before using them to race (after the first heat cycle, a competition tire must be rested 24 to 48 hours to reform the molecular bonds). In response to customer requests, Discount Tire now offers heat cycling service.
The Discount Tire heat cycling system ensures consistent results by maintaining key conditions during the process: only vertical friction is applied to the tire tread and a “soft” temperature curve is maintained throughout the heat cycle. Using rollers of proprietary design and placement, the system generates uniform heating and temperature build up throughout the tread, a condition not achievable on a vehicle due to camber and cornering. By rolling the tire and exerting only vertical friction across the tread, lateral scrubbing is eliminated. This also ensures virtually no loss of tread during the heat cycle. A soft temperature curve, where the tire is gradually heated, sustained at the specified temperature and then slowly cooled, is maintained and monitored throughout the cycle. In this way the entire tread is heat cycled uniformly throughout its depth and width.
At completion, the tire receives a Discount Tire Heat Cycle stamp. This service costs $15 per tire or $10 if ordered with a wheel and tire package. All competition tire manufacturers recommend heat cycling service. In the time it takes to freight the tires, they have “rested” long enough to be race ready.
A competition tire is built with a highly sophisticated tread compound, capable of sustaining traction throughout a much wider temperature range, but also extremely sensitive to the first heat cycle of its use. During this cycle, if controlled precisely, the tread compound stretches as it heats, breaking the weaker, shorter molecular bonds within the rubber. The benefit of this process is a tread compound that lasts longer and provides better traction. However, if the first cycle is not performed correctly, the tread may develop irregular compounding, leading to poor wear and inconsistent traction.
In the past, many racers tried to “heat cycle” their own tires with mixed results. Besides the inconsistency, there was the inconvenience of mounting and dismounting the tires before using them to race (after the first heat cycle, a competition tire must be rested 24 to 48 hours to reform the molecular bonds). In response to customer requests, Discount Tire now offers heat cycling service.
The Discount Tire heat cycling system ensures consistent results by maintaining key conditions during the process: only vertical friction is applied to the tire tread and a “soft” temperature curve is maintained throughout the heat cycle. Using rollers of proprietary design and placement, the system generates uniform heating and temperature build up throughout the tread, a condition not achievable on a vehicle due to camber and cornering. By rolling the tire and exerting only vertical friction across the tread, lateral scrubbing is eliminated. This also ensures virtually no loss of tread during the heat cycle. A soft temperature curve, where the tire is gradually heated, sustained at the specified temperature and then slowly cooled, is maintained and monitored throughout the cycle. In this way the entire tread is heat cycled uniformly throughout its depth and width.
At completion, the tire receives a Discount Tire Heat Cycle stamp. This service costs $15 per tire or $10 if ordered with a wheel and tire package. All competition tire manufacturers recommend heat cycling service. In the time it takes to freight the tires, they have “rested” long enough to be race ready.
Autocross Junky
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Rep Power: 380 With Victoracer V700's I don't think that you need to shave them because they are molded to the minimum tread depth allowed for DOT tires. I do recomend geting them heat cycled though, they will last longer if you do.
Autocross Junky
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Rep Power: 380 Tires are the only thing attaching you to the ground, so yes I say that they are the most important part concerning handling.
The Issue you will probably end up faceing if you ran with really sticky tire is . you will be timid with them. not because of any lack of skill, but because your mind will be screaming that your going to fast in to a corner, where the tires are not even coming close to their potential. I ran in to the same problem when I first got my sticky Azenis for autocross. after 3 events, im finally learning to trust them and where they will let go.
I'd love to go and run with my Azenis, I'm still amazed at the level of traction that these tires give.
The Issue you will probably end up faceing if you ran with really sticky tire is . you will be timid with them. not because of any lack of skill, but because your mind will be screaming that your going to fast in to a corner, where the tires are not even coming close to their potential. I ran in to the same problem when I first got my sticky Azenis for autocross. after 3 events, im finally learning to trust them and where they will let go.
I'd love to go and run with my Azenis, I'm still amazed at the level of traction that these tires give.
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Rep Power: 419 Damn, really? Hmm... I understand. Well, last time I ran and I kept up with the rest of the "fast group" for the first heat and I still had some in me to go even faster. It's not a timed event. It's just one guy that leads and everyone else that follows. Rather close I might add. I just want a nice setup that I'll feel comfortable with and that can tolerate some of my mistakes. I guess stickier tires will do that for me. That's k3wl.
Autocross Junky
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Rep Power: 380 alignment. Get a non factory standard.
try for -1 to-1.5 deg camber in the front, a little toe out on the nose(less then a half inch), and 0 toe on the rear. if possible.
this setup will help you initiate a turn, but with toe out on the nose the car will want to wander a little in straight lines. (just pay more attention to driving and you'll be fine.)
Tire pressure!!!!!
run a higher pressure in the nose of the car, to help reduce understeer. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!!!!! make shure that the pressure between the 2 tires on the nose are the same!!! do the same for the rear but you'll be using a lower pressure. try 35-40 on the nose. stay around your normal pressure on the rear.
oh ya, Two hands on the steering wheel. Allways, unless you are shifting. If you drive with 1 hand on the wheel, you are losing half of your controle over the car, and half of the Feed back that you recieve through the wheel. And be smooth with the controls. all of them(brakes clutch, gas, shifter, wheel ect....) any abrupt movements can distrupt the balance of the car. Think Smooth....some times you have to slow down to be fast. do you know how to Heal toe shift? do you know when to heal toe shift? how bout braking lines, as in Brake in a straight line, smoothly ease off the brake as you enter the turn, then as you pass the apex of the turn, smoothly ease on the gass (as you straighten out the wheel) and remember a cars tendency to oversteer increaces with speed. (a little oversteer is not nessisarily a bad thing, as long as you dont do any thing to make it worse, like hit the brakes) if you are understeering just do less of what you are doing. if your on the gas ease off the gas ect....
have fun and Keep the shiny side up.
try for -1 to-1.5 deg camber in the front, a little toe out on the nose(less then a half inch), and 0 toe on the rear. if possible.
this setup will help you initiate a turn, but with toe out on the nose the car will want to wander a little in straight lines. (just pay more attention to driving and you'll be fine.)
Tire pressure!!!!!
run a higher pressure in the nose of the car, to help reduce understeer. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!!!!! make shure that the pressure between the 2 tires on the nose are the same!!! do the same for the rear but you'll be using a lower pressure. try 35-40 on the nose. stay around your normal pressure on the rear.
oh ya, Two hands on the steering wheel. Allways, unless you are shifting. If you drive with 1 hand on the wheel, you are losing half of your controle over the car, and half of the Feed back that you recieve through the wheel. And be smooth with the controls. all of them(brakes clutch, gas, shifter, wheel ect....) any abrupt movements can distrupt the balance of the car. Think Smooth....some times you have to slow down to be fast. do you know how to Heal toe shift? do you know when to heal toe shift? how bout braking lines, as in Brake in a straight line, smoothly ease off the brake as you enter the turn, then as you pass the apex of the turn, smoothly ease on the gass (as you straighten out the wheel) and remember a cars tendency to oversteer increaces with speed. (a little oversteer is not nessisarily a bad thing, as long as you dont do any thing to make it worse, like hit the brakes) if you are understeering just do less of what you are doing. if your on the gas ease off the gas ect....
have fun and Keep the shiny side up.
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DIY King
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Rep Power: 419 Hmm... I'll take those alignment issues into consideration.
I don't know about the tire pressure though. As it is right now my car has a little oversteer, but feels basically neutral going into a corner. I have the Progress front and rear sway bars and I run 33psi in front and 31psi in back. I have an accurate tire pressure guage and I check the tire pressure when the tires are cold (of course).
Two hands on the steering wheel is what I do. I'm try to keep them on the wheel at all times and when I shift I try to put my hand on the shift **** right before shifting and not a second longer before. I need to remind myself from time to time though 'cause I have the habit of keeping my hand there for a little longer before the actual shift.
I've tried heal-toe down shifting a couple times and I can execute it smoothly, but I don't know when I should use it. Well, I guess I do... Although I don't feel comfortable enough in the apex of a turn to do this sort of thing. There's just too much going on for me to worry about one more thing. I'll start doing this sort of thing when I feel more comfortable. I'm curious... Do you use this technique?
About being smooth... I definately agree. I try to be as smooth as possible when I drive. This lets you stay close to the edge without going over. Try to predict the car's movements and steer so that you don't steer too much at any one time. Just kind of smooth out all of the rough turns and accelerations and deccelerations.
I don't know about the tire pressure though. As it is right now my car has a little oversteer, but feels basically neutral going into a corner. I have the Progress front and rear sway bars and I run 33psi in front and 31psi in back. I have an accurate tire pressure guage and I check the tire pressure when the tires are cold (of course).
Two hands on the steering wheel is what I do.
I'm try to keep them on the wheel at all times and when I shift I try to put my hand on the shift **** right before shifting and not a second longer before. I need to remind myself from time to time though 'cause I have the habit of keeping my hand there for a little longer before the actual shift.I've tried heal-toe down shifting a couple times and I can execute it smoothly, but I don't know when I should use it. Well, I guess I do... Although I don't feel comfortable enough in the apex of a turn to do this sort of thing. There's just too much going on for me to worry about one more thing. I'll start doing this sort of thing when I feel more comfortable. I'm curious... Do you use this technique?
About being smooth... I definately agree. I try to be as smooth as possible when I drive. This lets you stay close to the edge without going over. Try to predict the car's movements and steer so that you don't steer too much at any one time. Just kind of smooth out all of the rough turns and accelerations and deccelerations.
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Rep Power: 380 I pretty much use it constantly. but the time that you should use it is in corners that you are going to be coming out of at a low enough speed as to need to down shift. like you come in to a corner in third, and when you come out of it, in order to be in your power band, you need to be in second. so as you enter the corner, you are off the gas and on the brake. as you ease off the brake(as you approch the apex) you disengage the clutch, "Blip" or tap the gas inorder to get the engine RPM's to match the transmission's RPM's, put the car in the lower gear, engage the clutch and then as you pass the apex, slowly and smoothly add gas and accelerate out of the corner. All of this should happen quickly and smoothly near the Apex of the corner. where the car is in-gear(and ready to accelerate) as you pass the apex.
the timeing is adjusted for different type of corners, some you may be of the brake entirly before you down shift, and some you will go from brake,shift,accelerate Very quickly.
I have been told by several Autocrossers that, if you are not using the gas with great vigor then you should be using the brake with great vigor. there is no coasting in racing.
you should also learn how to threashold brake, here's a good article written by the Porsche club of america on the subject
and one on heel toe shifting
and one on Left foot braking
I havent gotten the hang of left foot braking yet.
the timeing is adjusted for different type of corners, some you may be of the brake entirly before you down shift, and some you will go from brake,shift,accelerate Very quickly.
I have been told by several Autocrossers that, if you are not using the gas with great vigor then you should be using the brake with great vigor. there is no coasting in racing.
you should also learn how to threashold brake, here's a good article written by the Porsche club of america on the subject
and one on heel toe shifting
and one on Left foot braking
I havent gotten the hang of left foot braking yet.
Last edited by Zzyzx; Jun 5, 2003 at 10:17 PM.
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DIY King
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Rep Power: 419 Hmm... Heal-Toe shifting you say? I guess I'll get to work on it. I've practiced threashold braking here and there, but I'll step up my learning. Left-Foot braking is hard to do. You have to concentrate on not depressing your feet togther when you either brake or accelerate. I tried it, but I get mixed up. I'll try some more when I need it.
Left-Foot braking is hard to do. You have to concentrate on not depressing your feet togther when you either brake or accelerate. I tried it, but I get mixed up. I'll try some more when I need it. 
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Rep Power: 0 Hmm... you may want some more response from your car for mountain driving.
I tuned my suspension specifically for the skidpad because that's the type of corners that I come across 95% of the time during my daily commute.
Grey you probably know my suspension setup. (SS, RSX, DC lower tie, Neuspeed UF, Akimoto)
If anything, get the Akimoto bar. It's going to eliminate a good deal of flex which can lead to unnecessary roll leading to your tires breaking loose prematurely. On the other hand, I have yet to extract the full potential of my suspension because I'm running on Kumho Ecsta Supra 205/55/16s. These are not sticky at all. I went on a joyride with my friend who was going to give me an unbiased view on my suspension but it turned out that he liked it regardless. My front damping is at 10/16 and the rear is 14/16. Unfortunately since I don't have the progress bar, I compensate with a stiffer rear setting.
My $0.02 is find a good mountain pass and run it with your current setup. Take a timer with you and document your average time. Next buy some adjustable coilovers, lightweight bodyparts, awesome brakes and such and see what kind of time difference you get. More than likely you're not going to see seconds drop off your time, but the mods will inspire more confidence for better repeatability. If you want to shave seconds off, you're going to have to go turbo or K20A.
or you can just spend $1500 for an 85-87 Corolla GT-S and you will definitely be pimpin.
I tuned my suspension specifically for the skidpad because that's the type of corners that I come across 95% of the time during my daily commute.
Grey you probably know my suspension setup. (SS, RSX, DC lower tie, Neuspeed UF, Akimoto)
If anything, get the Akimoto bar. It's going to eliminate a good deal of flex which can lead to unnecessary roll leading to your tires breaking loose prematurely. On the other hand, I have yet to extract the full potential of my suspension because I'm running on Kumho Ecsta Supra 205/55/16s. These are not sticky at all. I went on a joyride with my friend who was going to give me an unbiased view on my suspension but it turned out that he liked it regardless. My front damping is at 10/16 and the rear is 14/16. Unfortunately since I don't have the progress bar, I compensate with a stiffer rear setting.
My $0.02 is find a good mountain pass and run it with your current setup. Take a timer with you and document your average time. Next buy some adjustable coilovers, lightweight bodyparts, awesome brakes and such and see what kind of time difference you get. More than likely you're not going to see seconds drop off your time, but the mods will inspire more confidence for better repeatability. If you want to shave seconds off, you're going to have to go turbo or K20A.
or you can just spend $1500 for an 85-87 Corolla GT-S and you will definitely be pimpin.
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DIY King
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Rep Power: 419 Hmm... The Akimoto bar has that hump in the middle, right? As if was designed for 6th gens, right? Or is this one specifically for the 7th gens and is flat? I may DIY my own and start selling them. I'm thinking of making a brand name. Mr. Stiffy LOL
Yeah, I have the Kumho Ecsta Supra 712's too, but a little wider at 215/45-17 They slide around real nice, but that's basically what I got them for. For durability and for burn outs and for sliding (180's, 360's, 540's, and so on).
Hmm... I may have to time myself. That's a good idea. I haven't done that yet and I think I'de definately improve my skills if I looked at the time and tried doing things differently and going again and again. Yep, good tip. Damn it, now I have to find a good place to do it.
Yeah, I could get an AE86. LOL Actually, I'll probably get one down the road. That is if I have the garage space.
Yeah, I have the Kumho Ecsta Supra 712's too, but a little wider at 215/45-17 They slide around real nice, but that's basically what I got them for. For durability and for burn outs and for sliding (180's, 360's, 540's, and so on).
Hmm... I may have to time myself. That's a good idea. I haven't done that yet and I think I'de definately improve my skills if I looked at the time and tried doing things differently and going again and again. Yep, good tip. Damn it, now I have to find a good place to do it.
Yeah, I could get an AE86. LOL Actually, I'll probably get one down the road.
That is if I have the garage space. Registered!!
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From: Kent, WA
Rep Power: 0 there's this old lady at work who has this beautiful 87 SR5.
Garaged, no rust, original paint, less than 100,000 on the original engine, no scratches, no dents, and the interior looks like it's vaccuumed once a week. Manual transmission too.
I'm going to have to beg her to sell it to me.
I went to a club4ag meet and the hachi-roku guys are really cool. The engines are easier to work with and 4A-GEs are about $300 if you blow yours up.
I'd say keep the Civic for show. Buy an AE86 for the touge.
I'm thinking of getting the AE86 off the old lady and just make it a competant car and paint it panda white. But before I do any of that, I need to buy a house with a 2 car garage.
Garaged, no rust, original paint, less than 100,000 on the original engine, no scratches, no dents, and the interior looks like it's vaccuumed once a week. Manual transmission too.
I'm going to have to beg her to sell it to me.
I went to a club4ag meet and the hachi-roku guys are really cool. The engines are easier to work with and 4A-GEs are about $300 if you blow yours up.
I'd say keep the Civic for show. Buy an AE86 for the touge.
I'm thinking of getting the AE86 off the old lady and just make it a competant car and paint it panda white. But before I do any of that, I need to buy a house with a 2 car garage.
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Rep Power: 380 another thing you can do to improve your driving its to go autocrossing. you dont have to compete, just push the car and get use to it being on the edge.
sorry, I couldnt resist puting in the Obligatory autocross plug
sorry, I couldnt resist puting in the Obligatory autocross plug
Last edited by Zzyzx; Jun 6, 2003 at 11:29 AM.
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Rep Power: 0 an ae86 is not cheap...sure you can pick the car up for what 1500? maybe more depending on year and condition...still it needs a ton of **** replaced to be anywhere near a great car... i know.. i owned one. and its not a car that a lot of people seem to be able to drive..not as in drive good but as an everyday car.. at the least you should change out all the fluids..get a new lsd regardless of it having a factory or not...the factory ones are usualy shitted or loose, youll know what i mean after driving a factory lsd gts vs one with a 1.5 or 2 way kaaz, trd or whatever other brand you may go with..you should also replace all the bushings in the car cause they will deflect greatly..and the brake lines..ack usually completely shitted and falling apart...there amazing cars none the less...heres me in action...
and if you get one plan on sticking 3k in to restoring it slightly and getting it to a good point..atleast in my opinion.
and if you get one plan on sticking 3k in to restoring it slightly and getting it to a good point..atleast in my opinion.
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Rep Power: 0 it shouldn't cost too much man.
There's this old lady at work who might sell me her mint 87 AE86 SR5 for about $800 and I can get parts cheap off some homeys from the club4ag board cuz they got stuff lying around. And I got a hookup for parts from the local Toyota dealership. But yeah I know, compared to the Civics, they are a little more work as far as maintenance is concerned.
There's this old lady at work who might sell me her mint 87 AE86 SR5 for about $800 and I can get parts cheap off some homeys from the club4ag board cuz they got stuff lying around. And I got a hookup for parts from the local Toyota dealership. But yeah I know, compared to the Civics, they are a little more work as far as maintenance is concerned.
