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Hi,

My car overheated because of a broken radiator. I just replaced the radiator but there are still 2 outstanding issues.

1. white smoke - after turning on (idle) the engine for 10-15 minutes
2. engine light is on and I have it check at Autozone and equipment says its a cylinder misfire and knock sensor not working

Based on my understanding by reading the previous threads, most likely I need to replace the head gasket and knock sensor. This is my first time to have it fixed by a mechanic and I need advice since I am cautious of not getting ripped-off.

1. What test would my car need?
2. Should I also replace the timing belt and valve field (not sure if I get this right)? Are there any parts that are better to replace so I can save labor cost in the future?
3. What is the estimate cost of parts and labor?
4. Any advice will be greatly appreciated...


Thanks,
Clark

 
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My car is 2002 Civic LX coupe.

 
Rep Power: 273

Bummer.

I'm not insanely knowledgeable about blown headgaskets, so someone with more experience could help you more.

However, since this is the internet I'll give you my $0.02



You will for sure need a compression test and a Cylinder compression leak-down test. these are two different things, and the leak-down test requires a special gauge and compressed air, so be sure the shop can do it.

As I understand your previous post, it sounds like the engine runs more or less OK save for the white smoke? if the engine is not actually knocking, then yeah, you may just need to replace the knock sensor. if the engine is knocking, you may have valve damage or other expensive problems I can't really speak to.

White smoke is a classic blown headgasket sign. When you take it to the mechanic, he'll have to pull the head off, and doing that the timing belt HAS to come off. That would be a good point to replace the timing belt, tensioner, water pump, etc. Water pump especially, since it is lubricated by the water flowing through it, so if it was spinning for any length of time in air it probably needs to be replaced. $54.13 from majestic honda is what I paid for the part.

When the head is off the block, because it was overheat damage your mechanic needs to check the block and the bottom of the cylinder head surface for warpage. If warped, the head or block may need to be resurfaced so that the new gasket will lie flat and seal correctly. Additionally, the mechanic will probably also check the valves to make sure they aren't damaged.

If the head is toast (needs to be resurfaced AND also needs valves and other stuff) you might consider looking on this site or at local junkyards for a used LX head - sometimes doing a port and polish on a used head and valves is cheaper than resurfacing and the labor of removing / reinstalling valves on a questionable head. YMMV.

Hope that helps. from my limited knowledge of blown headgaskets, those are some of the things to look forward to. Like I said, bummer

 
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Here's my .02 as well. I've done this a couple times already.

Don't bother with the compression tests, you've already got the signs that your head gasket is leaking because of the white smoke. These two tests will tell you that and you already know it. Yes, the white smoke is coolant being burned up in your engine.

Once the head is off the block, reddawn is right. It needs to be taken to a machine shop and skimmed to get it straight again because it probably warped a little bit. When this is being done, they can also inspect the valves to make sure everything is copasetic. I doubt you have valve damage, but they will know by looking. The block is probably fine, but it wouldn't hurt to have it checked as well.

Are you planning on doing any of this work yourself? If so, you will save yourself a ton of money in labor. The actual work isn't that difficult, it's just time-consuming. The only hitch is down time and if you want to get the block checked, the car either has to be towed to the machine shop or pulled and taken to the shop. For that reason, I'd just get the head skimmed and be done with it. There is less chance of the block being warped than there is of the head. And it takes a lot to warp the head.

How long was the car run when it didn't have coolant? How many miles are on the car now?

If the answer to these two questions is "A while." and "Over 80K" then I would change out the timing belt and water pump. Most everything is already ripped apart for the HG replacement, all that needs to be done at that point pulling the lower timing cover and the crank pulley to get to the water pump.

 
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i just read the post and u guys are amazing, i feel lucky to have people like u and im not even the one with problems lol .. but yah definately HG .. AND FOR SURE DO THE TIMING BELT / WATERPUMP ... cuz if not, in 1 yr u will have to pay another 500 changing them .. labour wise u are looking around 600 for HG wise, no one really mentioned the price but thats roughly it ..

 
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Good point. I was pointing out standard diagnostic procedure, but foos is right: 99% sure its the gasket so why waste the money.

That might be a good test for finding a trustworthy mechanic. If you tell the mechanic all of the events leading up to the problem including the white smoke, and he *insists* that you *need* these tests at substantial expense, maybe shop around for a different guy.

If, on the other hand, he says something like what foos just posted - namely "Well, we could do compression and leakdown, but you've got a blown headgasket, 99% sure and I don't want to waste my time or your money getting answers I already have," then you probably have a good mechanic.

foos is the knowledgeable, experienced man with the F/I setup - I think he's blown a few HG's. I defer to his experience ;-)

BTW, has anyone done a headgasket replacement DIY? I hope mine lasts another couple hundred thousand miles, but it might be nice to do one. Still working on photoshopping more pics for my timing belt / coolant DIY

As foos suggests, you can save big money doing the work yourself. If you need shop manual pages let me know, but there is already a thread where someone has posted the full service manual at rapidshare or something.

 
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I know I've written a text DIY for it, but have never gone through the trouble to make a full one with pics. I have to replace my cylinder head (probably next weekend) so I will go on the record here and say that I will take enough pics of the process this time to do a full HG replacement DIY. Process is the same, there's just more **** to take off a boosted car than a stocker.

 
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*********************************************
This is what I understood.

Test (optional since the symptoms points to broken headgasket)
1. Compression test
2. Cylinder compression


Recommended to replace (if the car overheated a while and/or in order to save on labor in the future):
1. timing belt ($54.13)
2. tensioner
3. water pump

Worse case and very less likely to happen (head is off the block):
1a. Head needs to be resurfaced
b. Valves and other stuff replaced
2. Or buy from junkyard a used head and valves

*********************************************

reddawnman:
Q: As I understand your previous post, it sounds like the engine runs more or less OK save for the white smoke?

The engine runs ok. I think it seems to be rattling a bit (not sure).


speedfoos:
Q: How long was the car run when it didn't have coolant? How many miles are on the car now?
1. I don't know how long. I was driving up hill with full air-conditioner turned on. I drove to the side of the freeway after I noticed the engine light was on and it was hard to accelerate.
2. 72K+


This is my first car and the only things I did on a car were oil change and radiator replacement. Do you think it can be done only by one person with no experience and I don’t have a covered garage? How long does it take? I’ll continue to look for a headgasket replacement guide or wait for speedfoos for it I remembered seeing a post here where a member pm someone a guide.


I inquired with a local mechanic here in North Hollywood and he said he can replace the headgasket, timing belt, and valve seal for $400 (labor only). I’ll decide next weekend since I am busy with my work.

Thanks speedfoos, reddawnman and emjay for your advice.

 
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Actually, the second one is called a Cylinder leak-down test. The shop puts compressed air in the cylinder at a specified pressure, then measures the drop in pressure after time. A leaking head gasket will show a drop. The first one (Compression test) attaches a gauge to the cylinder and measures how much the air inside it is "compressed" by the piston rising up. a low compression reading usually indicates valve damage.

If the car is at 78k like you said, no matter what those things are supposed to be changed at 100K miles, so even if the car wasn't overheated that long, they should be replaced.

I am in the process of writing the timing belt DIY. The total cost to do a thorough job in the timing belt is about $160 for all the parts you'll need. Here's my receipt from Majestic honda (hondaautomotiveparts.com):

Alternator belt: 11.43
Power Steering Belt: 7.05
Timing Belt: 14.96
Water Pump: 54.13
Timing Belt Tensioner: 69.84
Valve Cover Gasket: 6.00
Camshaft Oil Seal: 4.50
Crankshaft Oil Seal: 4.50

Now, since you've got a blown headgasket, lets check a price on that. We'll also definitely need to do a coolant flush because you'll have exhaust vapors, acids, combustion residue et al in your coolant:

Head Gasket kit: 117.17.

The kit comes with the valve cover gasket, spark plug tube seals, intake and exhaust manifold gaskets, the whole schmear. You probably don't need them all, but you'll definitely need the head, valvecover, intake, and exhaust gaskets, and buying them separately is about as expensive as the kit.

Anyone know the going rate for a leveling grind on a head? Just in case he has to take it to a machine shop, it'd be nice to know what the budget would have to be.

foos, will he need studs / bolts for the headgasket mount? I'm not sure if they are things that need to be replaced and I don't have the service manual open right now.

2 gals of genuine honda coolant: ~30
2 gals of distilled water: 2.00
1 28mm washer for the drain plug + tube of liquid gasket: 5.00

The head WILL need to come off the block, it has to as part of the replacement. Judging from what you said earlier about you only stopping when it was hard to accelerate, I think you were driving for a while with the heat damaging your engine. I would personally want to make damn sure that the head was level, and would probably take it to a machine shop to get it checked just in case.

If your engine runs OK, you probably don't have valve damage, and you definitely won't need to order a used head from the junkyard.

One person can do it. A person with no experience can do it. A person with no garage can do it. But ONE person WITH no experience AND no garage will have a really tough time, especially in 50 degree weather outside. I just did my timing belt in a covered garage and you definitely start to get cold :-)

If you could find a covered garage, you could probably pull it off, but I'd enlist the help of someone that has done this stuff before. I can be bribed with beer and food to come help you - I live in OC.


You're welcome. Rep us all up by hitting the scales on the bottom left of the posts :-)

hmm. 400 for labor for all that isn't that bad. To do all that yourself would take you about 12 hours assuming you had some support from someone who had done it before. A trained mechanic with air tools could probably do it in 6 or so. I guess it depends on how much your time is worth.

Let me know - my website has my contact info on it.

Adam

foos - if I do help this guy, I'll also be sure to take pics.

 
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Fantastic stuff man.

OK, for the head skimmng (also called re-surfacing), it should cost no more than $25-35 at any machine shop. It's basically a 1/2 hour of labor to skim one.

For the head bolts, it's recommended that you replace the head bolts as they may stretch and not hold their torque specs anymore, but if the car is staying stock I wouldn't bother. Majestic charges $6.70 a pop for new head bolts and if I remember correctly there are 10 of them. You're better off paying $100 for ARP studs which can definitely be re-used. If it were me, I'd rock the same bolts again. I've done this before on other Hondas and never had a problem. If you do ever plan on boosting or bottle-feeding your car, then upgrade to ARPs.

You can shave a little bit of cash off and get a HG set from Ebay for $50. I have used these in the past as well with no issue - and that's not just on my current car folks. Those HGs that I've blown don't count!

Honestly on the HG DIY, just get a Hayne's manual. The first couple times I did one, that's all I used and the steps that are in there are just fine. There are a couple tips and tricks which I'll dig up from my text only DIY and give you, but you should be fine with the Haynes. Gotta run to work will check back in later.

 
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Like others have said, its the head gasket. As soon as I saw white smoke I knew what it was. Not too cheap of a fix but a necessary one.




Wagner

 
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Im with the others. Probbably a headgasket, but before you shell out money to get it replaced (and its quite pricey actually) get a cylinder compression gauge, and test all of the cylinders, or ask your mechanic to do this for you if you arent mechanically inclined. I dont know what else it could be besides the headgasket, but you should always be sure of what you are replacing, especially something this expensive and important. GL, let us know how it turned out

 
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I agree, I think it will hard for me to do it especially it is raining here lately. I decided to have it fixed by a shop or bribe someone worth $400 of food and beer:-) and I'll just buy the parts at hondaautomotiveparts.com.


I am going to order the part now. Can I ask how to find the
following parts at
hondaautomotiveparts.com? which major part/group is it or part number?

- 1pc. Alternator belt: 11.43
- 1pc. Camshaft Oil Seal: 4.50
- 1pc. Crankshaft Oil Seal: 4.50
- 10pcs. head bolts 6.00+
- 1pc tube of liquid gasket for radiator
5.00


I already found the following parts. Is "Valve Cover Gasket" the same as "GASKET, CYLINDER HEAD COVER"?
- 1pc. 06110-PLC-010 GASKET KIT, CYLINDER HEAD 117.17 (I can't find an oem in ebay, is it ok to buy aftermarket engine parts?)
- 1pc. 56992-PLM-003 BELT, POWER STEERING PUMP (BANDO) 7.05
- 1pc. 19200-PLM-A01 WATER PUMP 54.13
- 1pc. 14400-PMM-A02 BELT, TIMING (104RU22 GB-333) 14.96
- 1pc. 14520-PLC-305 TENSIONER SET, TIMING BELT 69.84
- 1pc. 12341-PLC-000 GASKET, CYLINDER HEAD COVER 6.00 (Valve Cover Gasket)

Thanks for providing the list and where to buy online. It is much cheaper than my local honda dealer.

The mechanic said that it is $200-$250 to have the head machined. I can canvass for a cheaper one. Is the same as head skimming or re-surfacing?

 
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Alternator belt is listed as part of the alternator subpage. Camshaft oil seal is listed as part of the cylinder head page (I think) and crank oil seal is listed as part of the Oil pump assembly (I think) Head bolts, i haven't ordered so i don't know.

Liquid gasket is called hondabond. You'll need some for the valve cover gasket (Which, incidentally is the same as a cylinder head cover gasket). Hondabond is like 15.00 a tube, but it is really good stuff. You can go to any auto parts store and ask for a hi temperature non-hardening silicone gasket sealant and you'll get basically the same thing for about 5.00.



Thanks for providing the list and where to buy online. It is much cheaper than my local honda dealer.


Yeah it is the same thing. I'd look around for a different machine shop - sometimes mechanics make their money in being the middleman for their brother's machine shop. Look in the yellow pages and start cold-calling people.

Aftermarket parts. Well, I don't know what to say. I use genine parts in my ride, but it is because I'm afraid: my previous car definitely had aftermarket parts in it and it was cheap. I don't know if there is a corellation, though. I know that speedfoos has used aftermarket headgaskets in his ride, which are the $50 ones on ebay, and HE says they work fine. I don't know what their longevity is, and neither does he because he boosts and its pretty much a given that you'll blow ANY headgasket every 50-75k miles. You'll have to ask around and make your own decisions.

Good luck. Sounds like you are on your way to getting the job done as economically as possible.

 
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Your mechanic is pulling your leg. Call a machine shop and ask them. Having a head machined is the same thing as skimming and the same thing as re-surfacing. Basically it makes sure that it's flat. $200-250 is out there it's not even funny.

Yes it's OK to buy an aftermarket head gasket set. There are three retailers on Ebay who sell them now (mizumo, CNSautoparts, and another one that looks like mizumo) and they all sell quality kit. Saves you about $50 if you buy that one instead.

Yes, Valve Cover Gasket is the same as Gasket, Cylinder Head Cover, which is included in the head gasket set. The camshaft seal is also in the head gasket set. The crankshaft seal will be in the cylinder block gasket set which I think has all of two gaskets, the crank seal and another small one.

What do you need the liquid gasket for? If it's for the oil pan, just use RTV silicone gasket maker (the red stuff). Other than that, you shouldn't need it for anything.

The head bolts are under the CYLINDER HEAD 2 page and are #18 in the picture and P/N of 944542.

Crank seal can also be found on the CYLINDER BLOCK-OIL PAN page as #23 in the picture. But I would just buy #2 on the GASKET KIT page which has everything you need for both crank seals and is cheaper.

Alternator belt can be found on the A/C COMPRESSOR page as #9.

 
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Damn it Adam, you type faster than I do, LOL!

 
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lol. When you do systems administration on the side, you get kinda good at it :-) i was at a jobsite and had to get it in quick before the boss came out... powerful motivator!

I think we need to start an internet radio show or something... kind of like the 2carpros site or car talk on NPR... but with more knowledgeable responses. You are very articulate.

 
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Based on what Adam said, I assumed it is for changing the coolant.
2 gals of genuine honda coolant: ~30
2 gals of distilled water: 2.00
1 28mm washer for the drain plug + tube of liquid gasket: 5.00

Sorry that I did not get the part right. There are three categories for cylinder CYLINDER HEAD (1), CYLINDER BLOCK-OIL PAN, AND CYLINDER HEAD COVER and only two of them has item #18 (listed below).
CYLINDER HEAD (1)
26457 018 3 BOLT, STUD (8X50) NO COLOR 1.15 0.80

CYLINDER BLOCK-OIL PAN
15441 018 4 BOLT, STUD (6X28) NO COLOR 3.08 2.16

 
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I replied immediately without readin Adam's post. I think it is the HondaBond or the hi temperature non-hardening silicone gasket sealant if I purchase it at the auto store.

 
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Whoops sorry! Part number 14 on the illustration for the head bolts of an LX. Was looking at the EX page. This what you need for the head bolts. P/N: 83222 BOLT-WASHER (10X140). $6.69 each. You'd almost be better off spending another $30 and getting ARP studs instead though. It's what I would do.

Thanks for the compliment Adam. I write reports all day, so if I can't articulate what I'm thinking, my reports are worthless.

 
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Is this the ARP stud for civic 02 lx?

ARP-208-4701
http://www.clubrsx.com/cr/ARP-208-47...mpaign=froogle

Thanks again for the help.

 
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Nope. You want the one that is advertised for the D16Z6:

ARP-208-4301

Uncle Summit has them here: For $95

 
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Hey sharing, ive been reading this post and i happen to have a motor that im selling point being that i still have the head, I'm selling it for $150 and if you ur close enough ill actually drive the part over to you and help you out with sum stuff, I've replaced my whole engine b4 so i think i might b useful, I'll help u with the timing belt also and anything else u might need. i live in pomona, dont worry bout gas, judging by where u went to get a quote id say ur not that far. let me know what you think. oh and my engine was an 04 lx but since the one i put in was an 01 i had to exchange that one pipe thing for the coolant that comes in or out of the head, so be assured that it will fit on ur engine.

 
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I already ordered the parts at hondaautomotiveparts.com and www.summitracing.com approx 3 hours ago. I am sure if I can still change or cancel it.

Sorry in advance for the dumb question. If you are selling the head, what else should I need assuming I can still cancel/change the order? I decided to have it fixed by a third party since I think it will be difficult to work outside for hours with this weather. I might do my own maintenance when I have a covered garage.

I live in Toluca Lake near Studio City. I think approx. 40 miles.

 
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i think you should still buy the water pump and a new gasket for the head, ask the other guys what else you would need. i have a pressure test gage incase u want to check it, if u need anything else from my motor just let me know. oh i almost forgot to tell you that im not including the 4 spark plug coils, let me know if thats a problem urs should be fine

 
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Check yer oil as coolant will wreck yer bearings!Water won't harm yer bearings as much or as fast as coolant will.I've been there done that.I agree blown HG!

 
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Thanks, I'll just pass your offer. The remaining parts are only $110 excluding the head bolts. Since its new, hopefully I don't have to replace it for another 100K miles.

 
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I called the machine shops around my area and they offer head resurfacing for $20-$75 and another $20-$30 to have it cleaned. Complete valve job is around $220. Hopefully I won't need that.

Thank you everyone for your advice, especially to speedfoos and Adam. At least I know what needs to be replaced and get a good price on parts and services. I'll give an update once I got the parts and have it fixed.

 
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np dude good luck.

 
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id be a good idea also while ur at it to change spark plugs. You will probably have built up carbon and other residue from regular driving and also the coolant. Maybe a intake/throttle body cleaner too if you want to.

btw, all these things you can do by yourself quite easily.