EManEX

People should do a little more research on topics before speaking out of their....

As some of you know I have been following GM and Toyota cars. There has been lots a bashing on the Cobalt with almost no facts to back it up.

In the Feb. issue of Motor Trend, they tested the Cobalt SS and found that it out performs the new Corvette Z51 in the slalom, as a matter of fact it was the fastest FWD car they have tested on the slalom. It also out-cornered the VW R32 on the skidpad, as well as the Chrysler 300C SRT8, and the 2005 Pontiac GTO. It has a faster 0-60 than the Mini Cooper S and finally it out-stopped the WRX 60-0 mph.

Now am I saying that the Cobalt SS is better than all those cars listed? No. My point is that this car is a well designed car and a real competitor.

02boostlessCIV

performance as we all know isn't everything. Reliabilty, fuel efficiency, price, and other factors come in to play. Cobalt ss might outperform many cars but it will never beat civic in reliability, fuel economy, resale value, etc.

dre2600

I would say thats a bit impressive, but the cars compared against have their obvious shortcomings.

The R32 is a wee bit heavy, so is the 300C, same with the GTO, do you have any figures for how many lateral g's the car pulled? (ie: article link?)

The Mini Cooper S only has 160HP, from my understanding the Cobalt SS has quite a bit more than that.

How does it's stopping distance compare to newer compact cars (ie: the new Mazda 3 has been shown to have excellent braking vs say and RSX that has been shown only to have so-so braking).

It sounds like the Cobalt SS is definately giving a lot of cars the run for their money but the FI route I think will eventually backfire owing to decreased longevity and I question how good the chasis is as a lot of people have called it just a rehashed Cavalier.

Oh and its ugly. But we might as well stick to objective vs subjective here, otherwise it'll get ugly.

dnbguy86

Dude, take a chill on the hate for anything other than honda, it shows yur being biased. obviously its a decent competitor if it can hang/beat the corvettez51 package in the twisties....if u did some research like he said youll find out it aint a bad car

02boostlessCIV

dude, sorry to burst your bubble but I'm a gm fan AND honda fan, and in my opinion the cobalt ss is overrated. I love their SS lineup but the cobalt just F'd it up with their plasticky interior and styling resembling many other cars in its class.

EManEX

Engine reliability is as good as a the civics, fuel I think it gets 34HWY and uppers 20's city, price, $21,995 (about same as SRT4).

Your last statement about never beating the civic in reliability, the engine might but the rest of the car is still to see. The strongest most reasonable arguments you make is fuel efficiency (but then again its a SC car) and resale value.


1st G's: Cobalt SS .89g, 300C .88g, GTO .85g
2nd Stoping: Cobalt SS 115', Mazda 3 121' I don't have numbers for the RSX.
3rd FI Issue: (as per S2000man01 information, It contains a forged cranshaft and connecting rods)

goodtimes

iTrader: (2)

kjhbvierubg rwiuebiruebvnierunw dont care american cars suck i would never buy one

LiKEaFeRiO

iTrader: (29)

Does the Cobalt SS / Ion Redline come with Ecotec engines?

I think I read in a magazine about how its becoming the domestic version of a B-series.

Performance wise I'd say its a damn good car.

The styling can grow on me but the thing I don't like about domestics is the interior ergonomics.
Can't complain about plastic-y interiors because the Civic is just as guilty but I found the interior layout on the Civic is so much better than all the other domestics in its class when I went car shopping.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

before you jump all over him, first.... he's simly stating what the civic excels in over the cobalt. so quit harping on him and calling him a honda fanboy.

secondly, the cobalt will NOT take a Z51 vette in the twisties. the cobalt posted a higher skidpad number than the vette. which basically means jack ****. all it means is that it can go around in a circle with more lateral g's than the vette.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

forged internals? do you have a site I can see where that's true? i'd be surprised if GM started using forged internals on an entry level car.....

Also, engine reliability will not be as good as the civic's. it's a domestic. when it comes to reliaibility import > domestic.

lastly, what were the G's for the vette?

Blkcivic

iTrader: (15)

Its funny how americans hate/dislike their own production cars and have no pride in them....

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

so we prefer an import vehicle over a domestic vehicle. so what? how is that funny to you? you think everything you buy/use is canadian? do you realize there are more american parts in the honda civic than the average ford truck?

right. didn't think so.

EManEX

S2000man01, the Cobalt out performed the Corvette Z51 in the slalom.

I'll try to find the link to there it talk about the internals of the 2.0L Ecotec SC.

Also about engine reliablility, the Ecotec has been around for a long time, since the very early 90's, in Europe and for about 5 years in the USA. There is a few cars running Ecotec engines over 100K with no problems (according to their owners).

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

Per GM's website:

The Ecotec does NOT have forged internals. The only forged parts on the ecotec are the same that the honda civic has. Both have a forged crankshaft, and both have forged rods.

The ecotec has an aluminum block, aluminum head, and cast iron internals. Cast iron internals are no where near as strong as forged internals.

Essentially, this means the cobalt engine will handle supercharging just as well as the civic engine would.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

I'm sure there are. But. When it comes to long term reliability, the average civic engine will outlast and have less problems than the average ecotec engine. We can thank the tolerances enforced by the import car makers and the quality of build process for that.

EManEX

S2000man01, you are corect, I misinterpret the information. The only thing that is forged is the cranshaft and connecting rods.

Block: aluminum lost foam casting
Cylinder head: aluminum semi-permanent mold casting
Intake manifold: aluminum
Crankshaft: forged steel with induction hardened fillet
Camshafts: cast iron
Connecting Rods: forged steel
Pistons: high strength aluminum
Assembly site: Kaiserslautern, Germany

dre2600

The 3 pulls a 0.87g as tested by Car and Driver (http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1) and the RSX (-new- verison) 0.86g and 181ft 70-0 braking (vs 169 on the Mazda). Unfortuantely Car and Driver uses 70-0 instead of 60-0.

But then and again, as S2000Man pointed out, lateral g's aren't really everything. And by and large, a lot of the time, they're more of an indication of how of a tire a car is wearing vs how good the chasis is.

I suppose as the car is being marketed as an 'economy performance special' a la Saturn Redline (with whom is shares the same architecture...) that it ought to at least be wearing a nice pair of shoes, which might account, at least in part for its good handling and braking. Compare that to some of the crap stock tires you find elsewhere and certain disparities become more clear.

As for the engine itself, I have seen some pretty amazing FI applications coming out of GM especially in regards to drag racing and the like. I just think though that running at 12psi daily will cause longevity issues as most FI applications seem naturally prone to lesser life than N/A, or at least require a rebuild more oftenly. For example, I'm sure you could find a B16 with over 150,000mi. on it that isn't in need of a rebuild, but I challenge you to find an FI car w. 150,000mi. on it that hasn't undergone at least one rebuild. It seems to me that GM is using a lot of FI applications right now as a simple patch-all to make higher power figures.

Also, I still take issue with the rear suspension on the Cobalt, I think that prepping a Civic or a Mazda with sway bars and better tires would, in the end, yield a car able to corner much better than the Cobalt equally prepped.

EManEX

Yes I agree with your points. I'm talking out of the factory performance. My main point is that most people here just write-off the Cobalt as another Cavalier when in reality is not.

Know what I mean?

UTICivic

iTrader: (3)

I feel like this is just like the Westcoast-Eastcoast crap with 2pac and Biggie. The Cobalt is nice. The Civic is nice. Both have 4 wheels and get you from point A to point B. One gets you faster to your point B than the other, but, whatever. In the end, if you think about it, the Civic is manufactured here in I think its like Ken****y or somewhere around there. Stop throwing drama around as if this was the Oprah Winfrey show. I cant believe some of you are arguing over some stupid **** like this.

nookiemonster

I don't mean to **** in your cheerios, but everytime someone brings up a better performing car, people's first defense is reliability, resale, mpg etc etc etc.

The fact is that this is a board where most owners are performance oriented. This isn't the EPA or autotrader board. It's an enthusiast board.

That being said, I think the cobalt looks very interesting. I'd like to see it's response to modification/tuning.

ASWZero

you know what i learned a couple of weeks back? i found out that the pontiac vibe is about 15% toyota. i asked customer at work about that and he works at muni in fremont. he told me the car has a toyota engine and drive train. well, im not too sure its called muni and not 100% sure it is the vibe. its not all too clear right now. goes to show you how much i really care right now. its just a thought.

diskreet

iTrader: (1)

if you people want to measure the actual quality of the car...its resale value will be about as bad as any other chevy. after 50,000 miles the thing has no value left just about. after 100,000 miles its worth under $3000.

dre2600

Oh, I totally agree with you on that one, this is -definately- a big step forward from the Cavalier, though, if you visit a lot of Cavvy enthusiast sites their cars can really really hold boost on the old block quite well. GM is definately stepping in the right direction and the only thing that makes this car still a Cavvy is the bargain bin rear suspension, barring that it presents serious competition to most any sport compact out there.

PunkingCivic

iTrader: (3)

it is not a bad looking car
and has goodies to boot

SS Supercharged Coupe (available early 2005)
Starting at $21,995*
205-hp 2.0L ECOTEC Supercharged DOHC engine
18-inch wheels and tires, high-mounted rear spoiler, foglamps, and unique front and rear fascias
SS Supercharged specific five-speed manual transmission
Leather-appointed front bucket seats with color-keyed perforated inserts
AM/FM stereo with CD/MP3 player
Seven-speaker Pioneer premium sound system
Titanium-faced instrumentation, including a boost gauge
Leather-wrapped steering wheel with audio and cruise controls
Body-color power outside rearview mirrors
Four-wheel antilock disc brakes

Blahman2

I always thought the cobalt would be something special when they announced it. But the body basically is a civic with skyline tail lights... Pretty much.

jakejham

Blahman2

... I don't like cheerios! But thanks anyway!

quick silver

iTrader: (7)

We should all keep in mind that these types of magazines (Motor Trend, Road & Track, etc.) are very biased and the information should be taken with a grain of salt. These magazines often report errors with regards to total horsepower / torque, vehicle weight, top speed, 0-60, etc. Like with statistics, data can be manipulated to trick consumers into believing something to be factual when in reality it is a bunch of BS!

02boostlessCIV

You are completely right, almost all of us are performance oriented, and as I stated before, I am also a GM fan as well as honda, and I love their SS lineup, but the cobalt just isn't enough to be called SS at least in my opinion. And i guarantee you if honda was making Civic's with 200 hp stock, it could cost 26 grand, i would still prefer it over the cobalt because i love hondas design, and finish. And besides cobalt's specs, when it comes to lenght width bla bla, is almost identical in every aspect to a civic.

WhiteCastle

iTrader: (1)

I dont care what anyone says. i sat in one and I felt I was in a full scale hotwheels model of a real car. Its cheap rubber maid plastic interior and god awfull dash do not justify the 21 grand price of the car...
You can get an rsx or TC which the fit and finish feels generally better. If your a performance nut the SRT-4 will blow the **** out of the colbalt for the same price. It also comes with better seats a sweet exhuast note functional yet basic interior.. I feel a neons plastics are better than a colbalts. Ohh ya an srt-4 has nice seats. Colbalt has APC looking seats. Dont get me started on the rsx its just all out better.
The car isnt hot for the price.........you use to be able to get comaros for that price and a little more you could get a z28.

As for american pride. The ford GT love it or hate it is top Gears 5th fastest car in the world rated 550hp
the saleen s7 will be tested this summer to beat the mclaren f1 saleen wants a 245mph top speed from his twin turbo 750hp engine.
zo6 c6 is an amazing beast boasting for 75k 200mph top speed with a o-60 around 3.7 secounds.
The viper coupe is amazing as well..
American cars are just as good if not better than any other cars in the world. You just need to look for the right car.