WJackson2006

I have a 2004 Honda Civic 4 Dr Si Daily Driver I Want More Power So Im Trying To Decide Between Building a K20A3 or Keeping My D17A2 And Adding Some Mods To It... Any Ideas, Personal Preferences,Positives, Negatives?

Milkey

This is one of my first posts, so hopefully I don't make a fool of myself. I was debating the same question myself (I have a 01 ex mt coupe). I decided for me, building a mild d17 was the way to go. First off, this is my daily driver (I deliver pizza, and drive from NJ to CT every week for a construction job), so a little extra hp is all im looking for. I currently have an aem cold air intake, megan 4-1 header, a custom headerback exhaust and I'm currently shopping around for a crower stage 1 cam. From what I've researched it seems all of that together gets about 130whp on an D17A2. I looked up stock EM1's and EP3's and and found that they tend to both dyno around 140whp. EM2 mild n/a 130whp at 2405lb / EM1 (99-00 Si) 140whp at 2606lb / EP3 (02-05 K20A3 Si) 140whp at 2740lb. Now I believe you divide hp by curb weight to figure out the power to weight ratio. So a mild EM2 (I/H/E Stage 1 CAM) = .0540 / Stock EM1 .0537 / Stock EP3 .0510. I realize this doesn't represent how fast a car is exactly, but I think it's fair to say you can build an EM2 to at least keep up with stock EM1/EP3's for way less then a swap. Sure you can do a lot more with an K20A3, but for me, a better DD was the way to go (and with how cheap D17's are, I might even do a 50 wet shot of nitrous). Hopefully this helps, and I didn't look like an idiot.

WJackson2006

"This is one of my first posts, so hopefully I don't make a fool of myself. I was debating the same question myself (I have a 01 ex mt coupe). I decided for me, building a mild d17 was the way to go. First off, this is my daily driver (I deliver pizza, and drive from NJ to CT every week for a construction job), so a little extra hp is all im looking for. I currently have an aem cold air intake, megan 4-1 header, a custom headerback exhaust and I'm currently shopping around for a crower stage 1 cam. From what I've researched it seems all of that together gets about 130whp on an D17A2. I looked up stock EM1's and EP3's and and found that they tend to both dyno around 140whp. EM2 mild n/a 130whp at 2405lb / EM1 (99-00 Si) 140whp at 2606lb / EP3 (02-05 K20A3 Si) 140whp at 2740lb. Now I believe you divide hp by curb weight to figure out the power to weight ratio. So a mild EM2 (I/H/E Stage 1 CAM) = .0540 / Stock EM1 .0537 / Stock EP3 .0510. I realize this doesn't represent how fast a car is exactly, but I think it's fair to say you can build an EM2 to at least keep up with stock EM1/EP3's for way less then a swap. Sure you can do a lot more with an K20A3, but for me, a better DD was the way to go (and with how cheap D17's are, I might even do a 50 wet shot of nitrous). Hopefully this helps, and I didn't look like an idiot."

Nitrous is out of the question as far as i know its Illegal in Canada...

MindBomber

The use of nitrous is not banned federally, it's regulated by provinces and is totally legal in most provinces. I know in BC the MVA prohibits the use of nitrous on a vehicle not equipped with in from the factory (large trucks and motorhomes often are), but it's totally legal to use on municipal roads. I've talked to mutliple rcmp officers and have many friends running nitrous and none of them have ever given or received a ticket for it. Just incase you didn't know, modding a car is illegal period.

On your original question the answer is simple, if your looking for under 200whp then go D17, over that swap a k-series in.

That was a superb response Milkey, well done.

Milkey

My main point was just that it depends on how much power you want. If your happy with being similar to an si build your d17, if you want more do the swap. I did my intake, header, and exhaust for about $500, with stage 1 cam I'm hoping to stay under $1000. That leaves money for suspension, wheels etc. I like the idea of building everything rather then just the straight line. It all comes down to preference though.

MindBomber

Totally true, new people tend to forget that unless your going down a drag strip power is one small portion of the equation. You could spend $10k on an engine, but that would be useless on a stock suspension and brakes.

WJackson2006

I live in BC. So General Consensus is i could spend $1500 doing header back exhaust Intake, cam shaft and Suspension for around $1500? And If so what kinda power and handling would i be expecting?... just a little note im used to doing work on older V8's and Muscle type Vehicles. So i know nothing about imports.

Milkey

Intake, header, headerback exhaust (because the downpipe on our car is so tiny), and a stage 1 camshaft is about 130whp. Your stock suspension alone will feel like a go-kart compared to older muscle cars. My best friend is currently restoring a 79 Ranchero 500 with a 351 windsor. That thing can lay rubber, but when he hits his brakes for a turn at 30, I slide by him goin 50. Completely different cars, but just an example for you to base off of. Side note too, I've read that people not only gain hp, but gas mileage too with the stage 1 cam because it leans out the rich mixture the stock ecu dumps.

WJackson2006

130whp? isnt the d17a2 127whp stock?

Milkey

127 hp at the crank, wheel hp is rated different. Hp is lost through the drivetrain, so car companies use the crank hp as a base rather then the whp. Stock I think the d17a2 with a manual transmission dynos around 100-105whp, and the auto is around 90. A lot of people rip on the d17, but I think a 30% increase for just under $1000 is nothing to spit on.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

if you look at the dynos, k20 is not much better than the d17 unless you mash the gas all the time to get the extra hp above 5k rpms. and end up with 15mpg or worse. ive been in rsx's and even with basic boltons and hondata flash, they are not much quicker for daily driving. you want more torque not hp. unfortunately many of hondas motors are too weak below 5k rpms.

Milkey

You just made me look at a stock k20a2 dyno, and your 100% right. 6k rpms is around 135whp, creeping up to 160 at 7.5k. Thats not a huge gap (6k and under) from a built D17

MindBomber

I have well over $1500 into my suspension alone, but that's just my set-up, you could go more conservative and hav e a decent suspension for around $1000.

Koni with gcs or nuespeeds, with a type-s rear sway and poly bushings all around would handle very well and will be right around $1000 if you shop carefully. Add a set of prelude or s2k front calipers on top of that with ss lines and hawk pads for another $250ish and you'll be doing great in the twisties.

I/H/E and a stage 1 cam would be around another $1000, but you won't make 130whp without K-pro, 120-125whp is more realistic.

All that and we haven't gotten into wheels and tires or anything cosmetic, this is not an inexpensive hobby.

Milkey

I've seen the mustang dyno for 125whp, but wasn't it on an a1 block with a lower compression ratio? Wouldn't that make slightly less hp then an a2?

WJackson2006

What About Flashing The Stock Computer?

MindBomber

Flashing the stock ecu will do nothing, it's learnable so it will just adjust back to the stock settings.

Milkey, the car your referring to has k-pro so It's making a bit more than you would on the stock ecu.

Milkey

I saw it on another forum, and the specs state it as stock ecu.

MindBomber

Oh really, I know the car your refering to currently has k-pro but I guess it didn't at that point. Thanks for correcting me, all the more reason to buy a stage 1.

Milkey

It's a shame k-pro cost so much. You gain maybe 10 more whp for $1000?

MindBomber

I've seen it go for $800 on honda-tech, but your right that's an expensive 10whp if you just have a stage 1. It's when you go with a more aggressive set-up like stage 2/3 or turbo that it becomes worthwhile.

WJackson2006

So In Otherwords im better off just spending the money on I/H/E and a Crower Stage 1 Cam Than to Kpro Or Change The ECU?

OR a Turbo Kit Like This?

http://cgi.ebay.ca/D-SERIES-CIVIC-DE...item231264e6f2

MindBomber

If you turbo your D17 you absolutely need K-pro, there's no way around that.

That turbo kit is worthless, any decent one will be over $2000. Ebay specials not only make little to no gains because of the poor quality parts, but the turbos have a reputation for imploding and sucking the shattered pieces of impeller into the engine destorying it.

mac25

hear's the part were everyone kills you for bringing up ebay turbos, lol.

if you are going to buy the ebay kit i'm sure you could use the intercooler, oil return, pipes, clamps, maybe even the turbo timer and guadge.

but i'd be carefull about using the actual turbo, bov and wastegate. you might even be able to run the header from the kit.

even with the ebay kit there are hidden fees.

if you baught an ebay kit and used the above that's $600 + quality used turbo $300 +bov and wastegate used $200 + tuneable ecu used $300 (piggyback price) + injectors new $100 + fuel pump new $200. =$1700 in parts and you'll need it tuned so tack on another $300 =$2000 + if you can't install it you have to pay for that to so $2200 + if you don't have an exhaust system $2700.

ebay doesn't tell you you'll need engine managment, injectors, and fuel pump, on top of the kit or that the turbos can have major design flaws.

WJackson2006

That Turbo Kit Was An Example Id Go With A GReddy Kit Or Something More Reputible. But Would The D17A2 Handle A Turbo Without Changing Internal Guts Of The Engine? Also Thanks For The Further Insight To Fuel Pump Injectors And Such Extra's

mac25

i'm not a turbo guy but 8-10 pounds of boost seems to be what the d17 can handle without sleeving the engine and addind internals like forged pistons. but again i don't really know the ins and outs of turboing the D.

MindBomber

Read the turbo faq Mac25, it will tell you exactly what psi to change what parts.

K-pro is the only option for tuning a turbo D17 that will truly work, piggy backs just aren't flexible enough to tune anything that complex. Everyone tries to get around buying it, but in the grand scheme of a money pit turbo civic it's not that much money and you'll save on dyno time and future repairs with it. If you don't believe me just ask xRiceboyx, he removed his turbo completely since he could only afford a piggy back.

jamis33

kpro is worth it. It is probably one of the best EMS' for any car ever built. Here's why kpro beats aem ems (the "so called" best ems ever). kpro has like 8 adjustable tables (low cam fuel, high cam fuel, high cam ignition, low cam ignition,...) its only 4 main ones for the d17 but on a k20 there are up to 8 or 10 tables to adjust. On ems you get half as many. There are basically 2. Fuel and ignition. The advantage to kpro is you can adjust your tables for when your'e in vtec and when you aren't in vtec. Then you can play around with the vtec point and fine tune things better. AEM EMS is only good for all of the frilly features that aren't really necessary. things like 4 egt probe inputs or all the added inputs and outputs. Plus their software is very complicated. Anybody can learn to use kpro. Its not without its flaws but its damn good.