sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

if no one is going to comment, here I go...
A 6th gear is NOT an additional gear added after the 5th gear. Heck, my 6 speed miata revs higher than a 5 speed miata. Read more about gear ratios - I will not explain it here since it's out of the scope of this thread.

jamis33

alright guys. Time for me to weigh in. In my opinion a k20 is NOT worth it. If you want a k20 sell your civic and buy an rsx. Enough said. I've been in the 7thgen game for about 5 years now (wow I feel old) and I've seen the progressions of everything and time for me to break some hearts and de-bunk some stuff.

One thing that I noticed about this thread compared to other k20 threads is that when it comes to pricing you guys are honest +1 to all of you for being realists and not dancing around the fact that a k20 swap is very expensive. I've talked to guys that say just get a k20a2 they're only 3grand for the swap + maybe $1000 for odds and ends. Unfortunately that NEVER happens. The little things will kill you. O2 sensors alone are about $300 for both. How many swaps come with those? What about exhaust? Do the clutch and flywheel need to be changed? There's lots of other little things that you'll come across as well. To do the swap correctly I think 7grand is bang on the right amount. But what are you REALLY getting for 7grand. If you're buying a k20a2 that means you're buying an engine that is from 02-04. That's coming up on 8-10 years old. That's not a new engine by any means. Nextly the z1/z3 is not as easy as you may think because all the wiring needs to be changed over to the a2 to run kpro. Flash pro will not work with swaps from what i've seen.

so you say 7grand to have a unique car that's BASICALLY an rsx hidden under the lightweight civic...I can live with that. I mean I'll have 200hp right?

WRONG! 1000000000000x over WRONG WRONG WRONG

the k20a2 puts out 175whp at most with a pathetic 125wtq. If you don't believe me here's MagnaFlow's exhaust test dyno


Then there's the whole weight issue. the k20 weighs about 480lbs with a tranny. (value was pulled from k20a.org) Compare that to your d17 with tranny which I couldn't find a weight on so I'll try and reason out a guesstimate. My old man and I can lift a d17 into a truck with a tranny on it. I know between the 2 of us we can't dead lift 500 lbs. I'm going to guess the longblock and tranny of the d17 are about 300. I know I can lift the tranny myself and i know I struggle to lift the d17a2 longblock by myself but I can still do it. I'm going to guess the d17a2 is around 150lbs and the tranny is 100lbs but for arguement's sake we'll call it 300lbs complete and 500lbs complete. So when "weighing out your options" (see what I did there) you need to consider the extra 200lbs that you're adding when you go k20.

now for the power issue. if you're satisfied with my arguement of 175whp after you go broke from your k20 swap compare what 7grand would get you in a d17. You have options that a lot of people overlook. First thing you need to do. before you go and hunt down a k20 or before you go collecting d17 parts. BUY KPRO. I don't care what your excuse is BUY KPRO. ...cont'd because I know I'm reaching char limit

jamis33

Alright so you've shelled out lets say 1200 and bought yourself a shiny new kpro. and you've got yourself the d17 cam gear too just so you can see what it's all about on your d17 while you decide what way to go. having kpro on your d17 might give you a sense for what you feel comfortable with having performance mods wise.

I have also noticed that kpro yields a significant increase in gas milage when tuned properly. you will want a wideband o2 sensor or if you have an 04/05 stock will work in kpro or if you have 01-03 you can do the factory wideband conversion. Expect to spend about $200 here. So you're up to 1400 spent- 5600 left.

if you decide you arent comfortable with all this electronic crap and you don't want to be doing extensive modifications that could affect your reliability, buy your k20 that you desire so badly, swap it, and drive.

if you're comfortable and want more power you have 3 options: nitrous, NA, and boost.

I've gone all 3 routes and I'll share my experiences with you.

Nitrous: I picked up a dry nitrous kit for $150. I figured this is awesome $150 for a bit more power. Dry nitrous does not work on our cars. So i went out and I bought a 15shot dry nozzle which I am told our cars can handle. At the time I was running some NA mods and NO KPRO and I was planning on trying it figuring 15shot will give me more power but my o2 sensor will be able to compensate. I was all ready to install and start spraying and then I called the local speed shop to find out that nitrous costs about $8/pound. I have a 10pound bottle. That's $80 + tax. How much fun do I get for my $80? Well on my pathetic 15shot I was told I could expect about 8 solid minutes of spraying. Bump that up to a 50shot (for those of you considering a 50shot of wet nitrous) and you've got about 4-5minutes of constant fun (keep in mind a n20 pull only lasts 20seconds or less). But $80 for 8 minutes. Pretty sure decent hookers cost less. Sold the nitrous kit to some other poor sucker who can't do math good and broke even...

NA: I will always have a softspot in my heart for the NA d17 build. It really is a magnificant and mystical concept. I liken it to bigfoot or the abominable snowman. There are those who swear it exists or may have existed already and that it is real. And others that say its a bunch of bs and will never happen. I'm a believer. Those of you who have a stage 1 cam with i/h/e and a lightweight flywheel I DARE you to line up with a b16 em1. Their so-called 160hp dohc "superior" bseries will get a run for it's money. Something not a lot of people know, the d17 actually is the best dseries motor just nobody has the ***** or the pocketbook to build one. The coil on plug ignition combined with kpro means there's a lot more potential than the ancient distributor system. Do some research. That civic that made 125whp on i/h/e + stage 1 was massively underrated. I hate when people blame the dyno's for "reading low" but it did and his torque shows it. The car is making more than 107wtq with those mods. It was more like 115wtq so the hp is a lot closer to 135 at the wheels. I'd like to see someone else dyno. Throw it on a dynapack or dynojet and you'll break 135 easily. Step up to the stage 2 cam with kpro you can expect around 150whp and you can rev to around 8k and still make power. You want even more power than 150? Try intake manifold swaps. The d16 manifold swap will give you good gains. If you have kpro you can tune it right. The manifold swap is cheap you just have to do a bit of work but since you guys were talkin motor swaps a little modded intake swap should be a piece of cake. Alright so say you magically are pushing around 155whp with stage 2 i/h/e/y8im and you just aren't satisfied because even tho you're about 2grand into your motor build (i'm including kpro in that keep in mind d16 guys say that 155whp allmotor is near impossible on stock block) you still want more so you can keep up with the big boys with the k20s. So you've got about 5grand left to play with. Time to build the block. This will also give you guys that piece of mind from having a "new" motor. Pick up a spare d17 from one of those suckers that did a k20 swap. They'll sell it to you cheap because they're broke. Get it all cleaned up. Bore it out and swap a set of d17a7 gx pistons in it. These came from the cng civic and run 12.5:1 compression. A set will cost you literally only $125!!!! PM ME i have one of the only sets left in the world. There are a few other options for high compression like d16 pistons but nobody really knows the compression on those and I can go into those later. So you buy gx pistons and you need some rings for them. Budget $100 to be safe. Figure you're $200 cleaning up the block and boring it (will cost less) Pick up all new gaskets and bearings budget $200. Figure you get the block for $100 So all in you're $725. Set aside $275 for incidentals (tools random odds and ends maybe new injectors because you'll be maxing stock etc). You're STILL only $3000(with kpro and head build) into your build AND you have a brand new motor. Think about it. Once your d17 is rebuilt that's like setting the odometer on the motor back to 0. So with that build you are spinning a 1.7L motor to at least 8k rpms making at least 175whp. Im taking engineering and judging by compression efficiency calculators those pistons should give you at least 20whp gain from added compression. At this point you could also go to the stage 3 cam because at that point it will make good power. There was a guy that could not get it to make good power NA and they figured pistons would be the solution. NOW what's even cooler is you have 175whp and 4grand in your pocket while your buddy has 175whp and an extra 200lbs. Who's going to win the race?

jamis33

OK so I am currently seeking treatment for my boost addiction. I tried it just once to "see what it was like" I did it with my friends. They peer pressured me into it. Then one time turned into countless times till I found myself doing just about anything to get enough money to experience that feeling all on my own. I am a boost junkie...

So I had everything ready to go for my wicked 200whp all motor build. But one day I drove a boosted car and I was hooked. I remember the first forced induction car I ever went for a ride in was when I was about 13 and my dad took me for a drive in his friend's 911 turbo...wow. Then it was a ford svt lightning supercharged...wow. Then the car that got me hooked. An s14 sr20det with a gt28 disco potato. These were just rides. I still hadn't driven one yet. First one I can ever remember driving was a good friend's slowbalt supercharged. Forced induction torque is amazing. Nothing compares. Nothing...

Then another friend became a boost junkie just like me and we started "test driving" cars together. The first fwd turbo car I ever drove was a 2001 nissan sentra with an sr20det at about 7psi. Sounds weak but it blew my mind. I decided screw NA I want boost. I found a turbo kit and built d17 motor for a good deal and i'll let you know how it goes. Boost is the ultimate upgrade for the d17. It costs a lot but not as much as a k20 its not as reliable. there will be tears but ask anyone who's gone through with it and they'll tell you it was worth it.

turbo kits can be pieced together or I think you can still buy the tsi kit and the godspeed kit. BUy good stuff. It'll save you headaches in the end. There's no real set price on it but budget at least 4000 including kpro to get yourself up and running on a 250whp setup. That's for a kick *** kit. You can cheap out and there's lots of ways to do it because all those junkies out there always find ways to cut corners just to get their fix. But they're junkies. Do it right! Budget an extra $3000 for screw ups. You won't spend it if you do stuff right the first time but never make yourself go broke from boosting because the second something goes wrong you're screwed. I'm about 3000 into my boost build for a dezod v3 turbo kit and kpro, and a fully built d17a2. Just for those of you who are curious. I expect to make at least 300whp on this setup. I got really good deals. Turbo stuff can be pieced together so there are plenty of deals. Just my $.02. Even on a low boost setup like 5-7psi you'll be faster than a k20 for half the price. I don't get why everyone is so dead set on kswaps.

Next. Don't even get me started on the k20a3, k24a1...etc. and the k23 is a myth. if you want a k23 buy an rdx. or budget 10grand and boost your beloved k20. and the j30, j32, j35, j37 gtfo grab a tape measure and explain to me how the hell that's going to work.

MindBomber

I read most of that, but not all of it, will come back and finish it later.

Your bang on for the most part. The only reason to k-swap is if you want 280whp+ n/a or want a reliable 425whp with f/i, goals that cannot be acheived with a d17. Swapping in a k24a4/a1 or k20a3 is like paying $7000 for a stage 1 cam, it's pointless. Unless you want to be one of those guys writing a craiglist ad one day that says, "$20,000 invested, huge mod list, must selll, $4000 obo" don't swap.

Shift-E

That was a great way of putting it man. Lately I've been thinking K-Swap isn't worth it and that a built D17 would be more fun, and you just helped me believe that. I really want a Stage 1 :P But I also want an A2 and a manual transmission first lol.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

I am only considering a Kswap if me engine dies on me :P fer the reasons pointed above :thumbs:

cmiller_01ex

well back to the drawing board.lol i think i am screwed either way. i gotta swap my car from auto to manual to turbo or i can swap it all at once. so either way i go. its gonna be costly.

Seby05

I read the whole thread and you know the d17 build makes a lot of sense, but for me tho, I still have to go from d17a1 auto to d17a2 manual, is that even viable, how much would that cost me in the first place? My car is slow as a snail man... I do love the chassis tho and I really don't want to get rid of it. So what do you guys think about doing that swap first

MindBomber

the head swap is simple, there's a diy on this site.

jamis33

All you guys that bought auto transmission cars in the first place should have thought of this before you wanted to build a "fast" car. In all honesty the auto lx to manual ex motor swap can be done and it is costly still not as much as a kseries but won't yield like a kseries. I'm not really going to preach to you guys because I don't know what I'd do in that situation. If it was me i'd ditch the car and buy an rsx or a better car to begin with. Auto to kswap isn't as easy as you'd think. You still need pedals and master cylinders and wiring and there's drilling involved and clutch lines to run.

Shift-E

I got an Auto cuz thats what was available at the time and I didn't think of doing any performance mods to it. It's still nice doing the research about it though. Makes me think about what I want to do to my next car. If it's going to be a civic again or not.

cmiller_01ex

i think when i was givin the car i didnt care if it was auto or not.lol but im just going to look for a wrecked manual civic and buy the whole car and swap over all the parts that way.

Shift-E

^ I'm gonna drive my car till it dies, then buy a manual for the next. Much more cost effective.

Seby05

Well, I "inherited" the car from my older brother who decided to move to europe, so the person to blame for the auto is him lol. My car has 128K onit and besides the fact that it's slow, it runs really well, the only problem I had with it was the AC transistor thing. Well, it's an 02 so I was thinking about selling it and getting an 04-05 one manual, but mine would sell for around 4-5k and the 05 ex is like 9k? so either way i go i gotta spend a ton of money, and with me making minimum wage now, I'm just looking for the best deal. I wonder if I was to give this one as a trade in and get the 05, would a dealership even want to do that?

jamis33

Honestly if you have an auto and really want a fast car. Cut your losses and buy a faster car. There are plenty of better platforms to start from. If you want to build something for the sake of building something and your 7thgen has some sort of sentimental value or you really like the chassis or a deal comes up or whatever your reason may be then stick with the 7thgen. civics are not race cars. they aren't meant to be race cars. They are fun as hell to work on and do work on and tweak and play with but they will never be the fastest car on the road. They are a great car to learn on which is why I mod but a lot of you sound like you want your civic to be a supercar or something and thats definitely not an option. Thats kind of why I think kswaps are pointless. If you really want a kswap you're better off buying an rsx or a tsx or something they're way nicer inside and out. if you're deadset on the kswap I'm not going to try and stop you because you're doing it for the right reason. Just ask yourself how fast your car REALLY NEEDS to be. I'm not boosting cuz i want a fast car. Im boosting cuz its so much fun working on stuff and tweaking it and its just a bonus to be able to make an old school v8 guy say wtf? or get an all talk all stock cobalt/srt4/(insert not that fast of a car that ricers buy and are all talk about here) to put their money where their mouth is. I hit 5psi in my car for the first time this weekend. First boosted civic i've ever been in. Driven lots of other boosted cars and a boosted civic is fun. I'll probably get used to the power and want more but that'll come later.

Seby05

Well after giving it some thought I decided to try to trade it in for a 04-05 ex manual. So as soon as I start school this fall, I'ma do it

raigen18

Noticed this thread kinda died... but i've been lately putting a lot of thought into having a k20a2 swap done or not.

For those of you who don't know, my car is an auto and fellow auto owners should know how painfully slow it makes the already slow d17 even slower. I'm pretty much sick of driving an auto and having to floor the accelerator just to merge onto the freeway. I've considered going the turbo route but seeing as how I would have to swap out the auto, it will probably end up being more expensive than just doing a kswap. Plus I would like the reliability that I will get from a proper kswap.

I plan on keeping this car for a very long time... at least until the body is rusted out to the point where it's no longer worth it to fix. I've phoned several places and one place quoted me roughly $6500 CAD to do a complete k20a2 + auto to manual swap including k pro, tune, parts, basically everything to get the car running properly. I think this is a pretty reasonable price but would like some opinions.

I would like to do the swap myself but I don't have the necessary equipment such as an engine hoist and sourcing all the parts/engine is very difficult and expensive here in Canada...

MindBomber

Since it includes k-pro and labour, that's very reasonable.

Does the shop have a reputation in the Ottawa area? I can't understate how fly by night some tuning shops operate, it's very important you go with a well reputed shop.

raigen18

The shop is actually in Toronto. I don't think I can trust any shop here in Ottawa to do this kind of job, maybe a less complicated swap such as a b swap. From what I read, they have been in the business for around 7 years and their customer service is top notch.

I just need to get a exact quote from them and than I can make my final decision whether or not to proceed with this.

Also need to sort out some small details such as will I still have power steering and A/C after the swap as well as what I can do about the d17a2 engine and tranny once it is swapped out. Can't really take it back with me since that's like a 5 hour drive back to ottawa.

Are there any other things I should ask the shop before going through with this?

MindBomber

You can save a bit of money by not ordering k-pro by the way, it's not absolutely necessary, there are other very good and less expensive alternatives for dealing with the immobilizer. Only get k-pro if you're going to modify it.

Will they be using innovative, hybrid or welding stock mounts to the chassis?

Will the be using the conversion wiring harness or doing it free hand?

What will they be using for axles, swap axles with four lug knuckles or DC5-s axles which will require a five lug conversion?

Will power steering and ac be maintained, if so, using what approach?

Can they provide an estimation of how many kilometers the engine and transmission used in the swap will have?

SlimRisk

Hey guys been thinkin of savin up for a turbo, but today I saw a k24 in a new junk yard i visited and it got me too excited. No one seems to say that a k24 will work. Everyone says you need acura parts. Whats wrong with the k20/k24 parts from accords and other k20/k24s?
And i plan on swappin the d17 for a k because of the low miles and more possibility for power. (turbo the k or nitrous)
Any info?

MindBomber

The k24a1, k24a3, k24a4, k24a6, etcetera are all perfectly acceptable choices if you're buying it for the block. The only reason they're unpopular is the head sucks, which is why people build k20/24 franks or pay a premium for a k24a2.

SlimRisk

Yeah i read that k24s come with 160 hp and the k20s have 200. The head design sucks out that much horsepower thats crazy. But would a k24 with a k20 head make more than 200 because of the 2.4 liter block and a great head design?
And i can take the subframe and tranny from the accord?

MindBomber

K20s range from 160-220chp stock.
k24s range from 160-200chp stock.
A k20/24 should hit 220whp with bolt ons and k-pro.

You need to use the rsx subframe, you'll want to ep3 trans.

Shift-E

I can see why they call them frankenstein swaps now lol. K20 head and subframe from rsx, k24 from accord, and ep3 trans. Parts from everywhere!

MindBomber

You could go even more frank than that, OEM is awesome for a reliable budget build.

This would be good; k24 CRV block, s2k crank, s2k oil pump, TSX-S pistons, DC5-S head, DC5-R cams, DC5-S transmission case, EP3 1-5th gears, DC5-S 6th overdrive gear, 8th gen SI LSD

Honda brakes can be frankenized (like that verb?) the same way.

Shift-E

I wish I had money, a place to work, and more mechanical know-how. I'd be making the world's fastest (street legal) 7th gen

Seby05

So today I went to this junk yard where I used to go for my 95 civic, to get the ac vents for my em2. Well just out of curiosity I asked about a k20 and the guy said 1800, they didnt have the type s tranny, but they had the ep3 tranny for 8 hundred. All that to come with a 90 day warranty. I think its a pretty good deal whast do u guys think? FML I need some more cash

MindBomber

Ep3 tranny is generally preferable to the type-s, better gear ratios and stronger. Generally you can get them for $500-600 shipped online, less on craigslist, but $800 isn't terrible if it's lowish miles. The k20 isn't bad for $1800 if it's a k20a2 or better. If I went the junk yard route I would try and negotiate a deal for all the OEM parts I need for the swap for under $3k. k20a.org is generally where I order my k parts, the number of used parts available on there will blow your mind.