andyman97

iTrader: (14)

Ok, some basic info you need to know before you try figuring this out.

-01-03 d17's use narrowband front and rear oxygen sensors. This means they do not operate from 0-5V like a wideband but more like 0-1V.

-Beginning in 04, Honda began using wideband AFR sensors instead of narrowbands in the primary (pre cat) location.

-For Kpro purposes, All USDM K series ecu's run closed loop off of a wideband AFR sensor for smoother feedback.

-The Euro PRA ECU is the only K series ECU (that I know of) to use both front and rear narrowband o2 sensors.

So, how does this all tie together?

Well, if you have an 01-03, there are a few different options.

-Easiest way to go about it is to run the PRA calibration file and rewire the primary o2 sensor into the secondary o2 sensor pins on the ecu harness and click "Closed Loop" and "Use secondary o2 input for closed loop operation"

-Or you can do a wideband conversion and run any other map than the PRA map (what I am working on). The wiring on this is a little tricky and I'm not going to post it up until I have it installed and working properly (this requires wiring of a relay.)

If you have an 04-05, all you have to do is repin the secondary narrowband wires into the correct location on the k series ecu (the secondary wires are in different locations between the d series and k series ecus.) Make sure not to use the PRA map for this one either.

Rufus

iTrader: (17)

Few questions:

I have an 03 so, ultimately, am I splicing my front o2 wires INTO the rear ones and then running the secondary 02 plug into a sensor that will reside in my downpipe?

Right now, the car is still throwing a CEL and the KPRo software indicates that it's a low voltage o2 error (pretty sure) but nothing is plugged in. I think I looked at closed loop and it wasn't checked as of now.

Additionally, as the sensors on mine are narrowband, I need to pickup and RSX o2 as it's a wideband?

andyman97

iTrader: (14)

Oh, and something important to know, you DO NOT NEED AN O2 SENSOR with kpro. You can set your tunes exactly how you want them and they will not change unless you edit enrichment maps and tell it to. This info is only useful if you want to run feedback and have your ecu do self adjustments.

andyman97

iTrader: (14)

If you go this route, you will only need to use the primary sensor and you HAVE to use the PRA map. You simply swap the two wires on the primary and feed them into the secondary location. The secondary sensor will not be used and you will have to disable obdII, otherwise, you'll get a cel for the primary o2 (no wires are connected to the primary inputs on the ecu in this scenario.)

There is a function in parameters that says "OBDII enabled" and it should not be checked. You have it checked, that's why you're getting a CEL. There's also another spot in that same parameter window for "Disable Secondary O2 Sensor P----" that also needs to be disabled until you get your wiring straight.

Nope, you don't need to. It depends on you. As I just said, you don't HAVE to run any o2 sensors at all. I'm not at the moment and my car runs fine.

If you do WANT to use a stock wideband, go with the 04 dx front AFR sensor from majestic, it's barely over 100 bucks, really affordable. But if you go this route, you CAN NOT use a PRA map, you can use any other but this one.


So, you have options. My suggestion, if you want to run closed loop, pick up an OEM wideband and use anything but a PRA calibration to tune it. Only setback to this is that I haven't wired and tested it yet, but in theory, it should work just fine. You can run closed loop with narrowbands but a wideband will give much better accuracy and consistancy AND you can run LEAN PROTECTION!!!!!! This is the best function you can use, IMO. Can't run lean protection with a narrowband or an aftermarket wideband.

Rufus

iTrader: (17)

Interesting. Pretty sure this ECU does data logging, so it might be nice to see how it's running long after the dyno. Just took this screenshot at idle. No o2's plugged in.




Damn civicforums, limiting images....

Rufus

iTrader: (17)

I saw that, but I'm hoping these 577cc injectors will have me covered....

andyman97

iTrader: (14)

Yeah, it datalogs, couldn't tune without it. The map trace function is a beautfiul thing.

Its more than just injector size, bro, I've run lean with 750's many times. That's the beauty of lean protection, it sees an a/f over whatever you set and shuts the engine off for safety so you don't destroy anything.

Rufus

iTrader: (17)

Wow that's rad. I assume that means it can save you in case of an injector failure or any fuel issue for that matter.

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

Ahhhhh!

I was under the impression that the PRA calibration was written into the hondata software not the maps therefore you could possibly use any map. Also the guys at tempest did not use my base map the created there own for me from scratch which also gave me the impression that you could use any map.

Also I have an 03 and I have the primary o2 sensor wired into the secondary I have OBDII enabled and I don't throw any codes.

Oh, I use to throw the same code as Rufus but checked the Use secondary o2 input for closed loop operation box and it went away

Good write up Andy!

andyman97

iTrader: (14)

You can use any calibration but as far as I know, you can NOT start a map from "scratch", you can only select a map that's in the calibration file. Otherwise, you would have to program every fuel cell and ignition cell in every table. You tune off of what's there, whatever calibration closest matches your setup.

Ok, the way the maps work are...Hondata sends you a blank ecu with nothing loaded on it. When you first plug it into the car, you plug your laptop in and start Kmanager. It's just a program that allows editing of maps. Once you load it up, you have to load a basemap. That's when you select what map you want to tune off of. You can select any map that is preloaded from Hondata (or any file ending in .kal). Then you upload it to the ecu. Bam, your car is now running on that map. You can also load a different map over your existing map.

Say, for example, you choose to run a k20a2 turbo map for 440cc injectors, tuned to 10 psi. You run it and decide its way too rich, you can choose a different map that is closer to your setup, load it onto the ecu and tune it however you want. The setup is in the specific map you use. If you use a PRA file, you can't plug a wideband sensor into it, it will only take voltage from a narrowband. Opposite goes for a k20a2 map (and all others, for that matter), you can't run closed loop from a narrowband, it has to be a wideband.

From Hondata's kpro for d17 site:
If you're getting away with not throwing codes, more power to you. But I believe that disabling obdII disables the code anyways. I'd have to see your map and tinker with your parameters to know what's really going on.

MisterFrankieJ

iTrader: (2)

Great post Andy. It's nice to see a thread with some good tech/info here.

Rufus

iTrader: (17)

Ok so it sounds like my current narrowband will work. Now how the hell do I run my front o2 into my rear set?

andyman97

iTrader: (14)

Rufus

iTrader: (17)

lol I did that when I put in on Saturday. The red/white wire from the "e" plug is the wire for the secondary o2. I remember because it's what I tapped into for the o2 SIM to disable my CEL.

andyman97

iTrader: (14)

You haven't disabled OBDII. I can tell by your map screenshot. If OBDII was disabled, you'd have the ability to check all of the o2 sensor codes and closed loop operation.

Disable OBDII. Check the box that says "Closed Loop" and check the box at the bottom that says "Use Secondary O2 input for closed loop operation" and you should be all set.

Rufus

iTrader: (17)

In the MISC section I see you have to check to enable OBDII and mine isn't checked. Neither o2 are connected right now. I assume this doesn't matter though?

andyman97

iTrader: (14)

Well, something isn't right, here. If you've done all of the steps I've explained, it should work just fine. Not having either o2 sensor connected would be a good reason you're getting a CEL.

You have to disable all of the O2 heater codes in the parameters if the sensors aren't hooked up, even if you aren't running OBDII or closed loop....

Rufus

iTrader: (17)

They're all greyed out (including closed loop above it). How do I make it selectable?

andyman97

iTrader: (14)

I wish I had kpro on my work pc and I could walk you through it. You may not be on a PRA map. What was the original map you loaded onto the ECU when you first installed it?

tuningmycivic

iTrader: (11)

here's one for you andy, my emangle blue reads primary O2 voltage just fine, but the stock ECU does not receive the signal and throws a cel for no activity-O2-bank 1...also, if i clear the code with my handheld reader, it doesn't come back until the car sits for a while and cools off. Have not pulled the PnP harness as of yet, but as far as I can tell, all pins/wires are intact. Car stumbles a bit and wideband shows lean spikes to approx 16.0 afr while under light throttle, but only under those conditions.

any ideas? or is that just a side-effect of a piggyback?

andyman97

iTrader: (14)

Dude, I can help troubleshoot kpro because its one computer that is fairly predictable.

Emanage is a piggyback and there are two computers with no way to know which one is doing what. I would assume your o2 sensor wire is going straight into the emanage, then from an output, goes into the ecu?

ronaldo9

iTrader: (6)

Tony I believe that's a side effect of a piggyback. I used to get that occasionally if the tune was too aggressive causing it to be outside of the parameters the stock ecu can handle. Making minor adjustments it would go away. Sometimes I had to jiggle the harness a bit too as it was all cramped up inside the glove box. Had some mysterious codes disappear doing that as well.

tuningmycivic

iTrader: (11)

hmmm...thanks for the answers guys, i figured it was something like that, but it's good to know i'm not the only one having/had issues with a piggyback. i'll poke at it this weekend once I get back home. I'm in Atlanta this week and they gave me an Aveo sedan as my rental . it's amazing how much body roll some cars have stock, and after driving one without it for so long, how awkward it feels....

Rufus

iTrader: (17)

I didn't. Joe at Locash Racing did. Originally we had a base map for 310cc RSX injectors. He did have to come over and reset it for stock OEM injectors (as I didn't have my RSX ones in and was intending to run SRT injectors anyway).

Not sure if it's on the PRA map. Based on the wiring setup should I be running my narrowband off my front or rear plug right now? lol Is it just basically reading the voltage from being plugged in or does it actually read anything off of it?

Additionally, how to I get to the screen that shows the rpm values? It's a large screen with multicolored tiles. As RPMS increase, the lit tiles will move to the right and drop back to left when let off the throttle. I saw it when it was being programmed and now I can't find it. Maybe I should just RTFM

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

Click on the button labeled tables and it will bring up those colorful graphs

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

I just tried loading up different maps on the k-pro (not to my car!) on my laptop to see if I could get it to not allow me to mess with closed loop. The only thing I can think of is that what andy said you must have the wrong type of calibration loaded up

Rufus

iTrader: (17)

I did.. and it didn't lol


That's possible

FoSho

Wow.....Kpro isn't sounding so user friendly

Rufus

iTrader: (17)

It looks easy, I just need to read the manual

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

It sounds like you don't have your map loaded up you have to re-open your map once you have opened up the K-manager software. The k-manger doesn't automatically open up your calibration for you every time you start it