bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

120 hp 118 tq with the stage 3 cam.

112 tq at 2300 rpm and does not go below 110 tq till 7500 so it has a nice torque band in it but does not make as much power as it needs to.

There is not enough static compression in the motor for the stage 3 cam. basically the stage 3 is to big of a cam for the d17 engine without high comp pistons or boost thrown at it.

The stage 2 cam is going back in hopefully some time soon depends on the weather and my class schedule, and then hopefully to a dyno to to see some numbers.

Raging Monkey

Ok so in reading about MY engine the D17A1 (02 DX) I got a little confused as to what the flow of air is exactly... could someone throw down a quick explanation of the air flow from the intake to the exhaust (i know it's not a quick subject) but maybe just an "Air = x > x > x >" type of thing

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

hmmmm not really sure what it is you are asking for exactly but I will try to help on the D17a1 the non v-tec motor the air goes into the intake past the intake valves squished then banged and shot out the exauhst valves on the other side. Now the D17a2 tends to do it slightly differrently below 2400 rpm were instaed of opening both intake valves all the way at the same time it opens one all the way and one half way which in turn helps create a swirling effect to better blend the fuel and air audi's tend to swirl the air alot in there motors so the can run either more boost or higher compression.

If you want an actual formal on how the air flows I can't really help you on that cause it is constantly changing due to air pressure, temp, rpm, and a bunch of other factors

army12bc

so from what i under stand bomberman didn't get any hp and only 3lb torque (stock D17A2 listed 127hp @ 6300 and 114tq @4400) from his setup. has anyone got any numbers building na high comp, bore, overbore valve, ect?

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

the 127 hp and 114 tq is rated by honda at the crank. a stock d17a2 dyno's in at 90-95hp tops if it is really cold. and no one has # for high comp because no one has run high comp pistons yet. and oversized valves are kinda pointless on an N/A build because you will lose too much air velocity with bigger valves which in turn will just hurt you.

So in reality I picked up about 30 hp and about the same amount of torque. I have made 144 on the stage 2 but that was set up really bad I should be able to break 150 easy though when I switch the stage 2 back in.

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

dbl post FTL this site sucks it won't stop trying to double post everything i submit AHHHHH!

army12bc

no one has run high comp huh? i'm just getting to my engine part of my build, did all the suspension audio and tranny swapped, among bolt ons......maybe i should tryi it and see what i get instead of goin turbo

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

the math says you will get 12 hp my goal is to break 170 but that I think that might be pushing it.

army12bc

where did u get this math lol i can't find any equations or software to do that. i saw one civic with turbo goin like 400 hp dyno'd with dynojet. we should be able to do the same without turbo under the right build

lordhelmet

iTrader: (3)

Freaking spammer got me excited. I thought there was an update. sigh.

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

you wana update honda only has 3 std bore gx pistons so you would need to order the 3 and then wait while they make you one. so I think I might mess with the gx later like say this winter or next summer on my spare block I do now have a full flow benched and p&p head so with all that I trying to shoot for 180+ but I have a turbo going on in like 2 weeks

twin

have any of you guys have hear about port and polish head. they make the volume efficiency of the engine goes from 85% to a 100% it do wonder to a n/a engine it doesn't cost that much and it is not that radical. aslo you can raise the compression of the engine by milling the head. however i would not sugest high compretion engine for dealy driving they tend to blow preaty fast.

speedfoos

iTrader: (17)

^ lol.

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

first their is no way to get 100% efficiency. yes you can improve the flow especially since this head is so restrictive. but and secondly P&P is anything but cheap it starts at about $1000-$1200 and goes up for a good port job. you can get a $250 job but that is just basically cleaning up some of the casting marks you won't do enough to gain any power. also another problem with doing a port and polish job is it depends on your application you can't just bore out the whole thing for N/A other wise you will loose too much velocity. So basicly you would need something flow-benched $$$ or you need that old guy that has lived on the f1 circuit for the past 65 years that can port like nobody's buisness cause a really good port and polish job is an art form.


milling the head won't net you that much compression at least not enough to make it worth while and the valves are already close enough to the pistons as is. high compression is fine for a dailly driver they do not blow up as long as your tune is good

twin

look i dont know how mush a port and polish job cost where you live, but down here in miami it goes for a lot cheaper and they and awsome job belive me. second, it doesnt get to be 100% efficiency,however it get preatty close to it. the only way to achive it is with boost do the math. third high compression engine do tend to blow preatty quick due to the the fact that ultra high high compression system are more susceptible to detonation wish could ruin your motor in just one cylce, and you are right they have less chance to blow up if you spend a lot of money and time in the dyno, however the same goes for every system in the market.

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

You want a port and polished head http://www.dezod.com/pd_force_fed_co...tnpolished.cfm

yeah $3000 for head unless you supply the core these are the only guys that sell a P&P head to the masses unless you go to a machine shop and have it done and they are originally from Florida. now if you go to a machine shop and have a real port and polish job done it runs about 250 a cylinder. a lot of machine shops do do cheap port jobs but it is basically just a freshen up that won't gain you anything with P&P you get what you pay for. if you get it realy cheap your just getting a guy with a die grinder just hogging the whole thing out. and if you really want that well it's not hard to do your self. but you won't see any gains like a real P&P job.

now the high compression thing you can run high compression all day long like I said before it is dependent on the tune I have a buddy running 12.3 comp on an h22 on 93 octane he goes gets grocery's and then proceeds to beat the **** out of it and it has lasted. One most people don't realize is it is ignition timing that kills on high comp. you can run 93 octane and high compression in your motor but you have to be conservative with the spark. dump in some c16 and you can go crazy with the spark. and also since hondas have aluminum heads you can go pretty high on the compression thanks to heat dissipation. high compression on hondas is not hard thing to do. you run as much risk running high comp pistons as you do boosting the car. and they can last forever if tuned right look at the s2k. as far as tuning you wouldn't be able to get the a d17 running with high comp pistons without engine management and tunning you would know this if you ever tried to actaully squeeze power out of a d17 N/A wise.

you can't hit 100% efficiency even with boost it's impossible there are too many factors that you can't control. Air friction, turbulence, temp compensation, atmospheric pressure, fluid dynamics, piston head design. and even if you broke the laws of physics and got perfect flow you still got the stock intake mani (wich barley flows to 8000 rpm) in the way, plus headers, cam, and a bunch of other factors that I can't even think of right them moment. So why don't you do the math cause I already did the math and built the cars. Most powerful N/A d17 in the country and I helped build the most powerful turbo d17.


P&P and high compression has been talked about in significant detail in the N/A research threads on this forum the reality is that P&P is too cost prohibited if done right for most people with a d17 boost or N/A. and High compression is pretty much out of the question right the moment for the d17 cause you either have to go aftermarket wich would be about $450 for wiesco High comp pistons and since those don't work with stock rods you need to drop another $700 on aftermarket rods or you can stick in gx pistons which go to 12.5 comp but the problem with that is there are only 3 pistons in the country so you have to wait for honda to make more which will more than likely take 1/2 a year. If you milled the head you might get 1 hp.

So all in all have to very much agree with foo's comment LOL!

lordhelmet

iTrader: (3)

I'm a little confused here. I remember you talking about the GX high compression pistons and how there were only three of them in the US more than six months ago. Why not just buy the pistons? If you would have bought them six months ago you could have gotten them by now and installed them.

TRIZ

iTrader: (14)

Three my ***, and you would need four anyways. I dont know where anyone is getting these inventory numbers.

I've barely seen a GX engine bay, nevertheless the block with the head pulled, but it would be much much cheaper to pick up a GX block complete with oil pan and all the guts and mate it to a built EX head. I'm not sure if all the coolant holes would match up exactly though. I dont believe anyone has done this, as only a small handful of ppl have even though about the GX pistons.

speedfoos

iTrader: (17)

LOL. Paul said "barley" and barley is a key ingredient in beer, which is better than everything else in the whole world. Especially N/A Honda Civics.

lordhelmet

iTrader: (3)

So you can't stroll into a Honda dealership and drop 64 bucks a piston to order 4 GX pistons? I find it hard to believe no one considering these pistons has done it.`

TRIZ

iTrader: (14)

I forget how much the stock gx rods weighted in at, and if they were any different then the reg D17 rods... getting those and the pistons already in the block would save you a big hassle of putting them together. Hmmmmm... I wonder if you would need a GX wireharness instead of an EX wireharness. HMMMM... EX ecu should work too right?? Anyone know?

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

no I found out that there were 3 pistons about 2 months ago but I am strapped for cash right the moment and I think I am putting the N/A on hold and strapping on the turbo on but I might try to to get #'s one last time before the turbo goes on.

I am getting my numbers directly from honda the 3 pistons are at a dealership in cali. the head and cam on a gx motor is the same as a d17A1 the intake mani is different cause it uses natural gas not gasoline. there would be no point to use any of the gx wiring or ECU it wouldn't work cause it would be a bunch of different sensors that would not work if you tried to shove gasoline through it. and you can't use the ex ecu on it your going to be needing to control the ignition timing and fuel. K-pro is probably the only thing that you can get away with on it cause of the ignition timing.

also getting the pistons in the block already would be awesome but there is something like 4 or 5 blocks in the country almost all of them are in cali and they all cost $500 not including shipping which to the east coast is at least $200


mmmmmm beer!

lordhelmet

iTrader: (3)

Buy the block. I'll pick it up and get the pistons out and ship them your way.

Who am I kidding. The only person close to putting in high compression pistons to see what they can do in a d17 is going turbo probably for good. Oh well.

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

sweet but I don't have $500 but I did just paint the spare block that I have just dedicated for High comp pistons I wouldn't give up on me just yet mostly cause I am in the middle of a paypal dispute (guy gave a tracking # USPS never got the package to go with the tracking #) If I get my money back which I should I might pick up those pistons.

I really do want to see what it can do all out. Once I get the new head repaired I will slap it on with the stage 2 cam, intake mani, try-y header and see what it can do. i will probably even get it tuned instead of just putting it on the dyno. I will say that without the new head and the stage 2 back in I have been slowly walking past the brand new Si's with LSD's in them I don't know about past 90mph though they probably would catch up on the high end

turbo zombie

i haven't read all 8 pages yet, so sorry if someone has already answered this.

someone asked about why you might upgrade the valve size on the exhaust but not the intake. when flow bench testing a cylinder head, and when porting and polishing, it is generally measured in cubic feet per minute, cfm. you want the exhaust cfm to be a certain percentage of the intake cfm. i have been told by a man that has flow benched a lot of different makes of cylinder heads, that most production heads do not have the optimum percentage (for power, at least). possibly manufacturers run an undersized exhaust valve to reduce emmissions? i will look up what the proper ratio is supposed to be, i have it in some papers somewhere.

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

on turbo you can go all out with bigger valves but with N/A if you have too much flow you start to lose velocity so having a good balance is what makes all the difference in the world.

02AutoExCoupe

I haven't been paying attention to this thread, so please pardon my interruption, but can you make a 02 EX 5spd as fast as a 99-00 Si with just basic NA upgrades? I drove a stock 99 si before and it was fast enough for me. I think if my car had similiar performance id be happy. I believe these cars run a mid 15 1/4 mile.

ronaldo9

iTrader: (6)

DJMOTA ran a 15.2 with the stage 2 cam and a vafc 2, no cat of course. If you had kpro I highly believe it can run in the high 14's.

02AutoExCoupe

Nice! So I looked up the vafc 2 and get the basic idea of how it works, and there is even a shop nearby that sells them for $330.00 ( is this a good price?).

What about the stage 2 cam thing? What sort of brand(s) would I be looking at, or is this something that a shop needs to build for me? Sorry for the simple questions as I clearly am not a mechanic.

oh ya btw I LOVED the sound fo the high revving b16 and would like my car to sound like this if possible. Thanks for any help!

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

what kind of car, 02 EX? crower makes a bunch of different cams, and for stage 2 you will also need upgraded valve springs/retainers. stage 1 all you need is the cam (for daily driving and good idle). your d17a2 wont really compare to a b series, but you can still squeeze a lil power out of it.