Engine Building... Looking back from 5000 miles
08-10-2007
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Engine Building... Looking back from 5000 miles
Alright, well it seems to be the cool thing to do these days, having done it already, and more or less finished breaking this thing in, I have these suggestions and observations to offer.
1. Do it once - this sounds stupid, but seriously. Dont do pull a head, then decide 6 months later to build a bottom end. Just pull it out, rebuild the whole damn thing at once. Yes.... advanced planning. It works wonders for this kind of stuff.
2. Take your time - 3 weeks before something major is not the time to start building it. Don't forget that fedex sucks, and keep in mind that machine shops have lead times. This is why a spare motor helps... you're not going to drop it off and get it back next day. Working pretty quickly, it took me about 2 months from initial disassembly to dropping it in the car.
3. Do it yourself - this one is kinda optional, but I really think if you can do it, you ought to. It does 2 things. First, it makes you figure it out how to do it all, and learn what goes into it. This helps if the car ever breaks, because it sucks having to try and learn it in the driveway while things are in pieces. Knowing what it should look like, and comparing it to what it does look like is a major advantage. It also makes sure that its built right... or at least you know who's fault it is. From reading internet horror stories about bad engine building, I'd definitely be careful on who built a block if you didnt do it yourself. Some shops dont seem to know any more than your average Joe about it. Second, it makes you have to buy cool tools. Everyone loves tools.
4. Check and recheck - Even the new stuff. Make sure what you buy is actually correct and be sure it goes together like it should. This applies to things like bearings, bolts, gaskets and seals. I had my own run in with this, and heed this one carefully. If you buy new main seals from Honda (the tranny side and the oil pump), they dont install the seals to spec, they just put them in there. You need to make sure they're set the correct distance from the shoulder, and they're straight. Without realizing this, I spun the oil pump seal crooked, tore it and shot oil everywhere, almost lost the motor with 300 miles on it. It was a pain to fix, and a huge stroke of luck I didnt spin all the bearings. Make sure the seals are set right. Plastigauge all the bearings. Chase out all the threads for every bolt in the motor with a set of thread chasers (not taps). Make sure you spin the rotating assembly with the notches for the rods ground into the cylinders so that you know they clear before you find out the hard way.
Another observation I made is that Wiseco doesnt finish deburr the pistons. The smaller they are (75 vs 76) the worse the problem... the reliefs for the exhaust valves are paper thin. Sometimes the cutter breaks through, sometimes it doesnt, but you need to grind off that little piece of flash thats left over so that you dont create a hot spot (this will make the motor predetonate). Basically take it down to the level of the valve relief so the thin edge is gone. Its also wise to run a superfine piece of emory around the top edge of the slug to knock down any high spots, as well as the edges of the ring lands. Dont go crazy. A single pass ought to do it.
5. You cant use too much lube - Load the bearings up with a good assembly lube (obviously just the front sides, leave the sides that go against the journals alone). Do both sides of the thrust bearings though, assembly lube is also pretty good "glue" to hold them there until the crank goes in. I used Clevite 77, which was real thick and goopy, I've also heard good things about Torco. I wouldnt use something real thin to do this. Honda manual says you can use oil, but oil is pretty thin in comparison and can run out, you dont want those bearings dry the first time you crank it. Moly lube is your other best friend, but realize it effects the torque values. If a specific lube is called for (main girdle bolts, cam girdle bolts, ARP studs, etc...) USE IT.
6. Intial start up
Prime the oiling system - common sense, I know. But pull the ECU fuse out and crank the car until the oil pressure light goes off before you fire it up the first time. Save the starter.... go 8-10 seconds at a time, then let it rest. Light should go off after 3 or 4 cranks.
Leave the radiator cap off - You think its full, trust me, it isnt. Its going to burp air for a while, probably violently as it starts to actually fill up. Have several gallons of water or 50/50 on hand. Just add it in as it bleeds out the air.
Do a 15 minute oil change - All that stuff that you werent shy about using to lube the motor up when you built it is now in your oil. You want that. Also in there is the high spots from the cylinder honing, and other random assorted crap that didnt come out in the hot tank or subsequent cleanings.
Drain it out, change the filter and put some new stuff in. I don't know what the current opinion on synthetics is, but I was always told to start a motor on conventional, because it seats all the seals and stuff, whereas synthetic is so slick that it goes past them. REMEMBER - this isnt a factory built engine. Its a high performance engine, you're gonna have to treat it as such.
7. Be a maintenance **** - Keep changing the oil. After the 15 minute change, change it at 100, then 500, then around 1500. Keep an eye on the color. The way mine seemed to come out was that all the clevite came out after 15 minutes, the moly worked its way out in the 100 change (you can tell, the oil is greyish), the 500 mile change was the leftovers, and by the 1500 change, it was fairly good. It helps to drain the oil over a fine screen, coffee filter, or paper towel so you can check for metal bits coming out.
Make sure you're not leaking anything from anywhere, make sure the cooling system is holding. Its also a good idea to do a compression test and/or leak the motor down to make sure the rings seated and the combustion chambers sealed.
At around 500-1000 miles pull the valve cover, retorque all the head studs to make sure they are still to spec. They can stretch a little bit. While you're in there, check your valve rocker clearances, adjust accordingly.
8. Break-in/Tuning - There's argument on this. Some people say fire it up, do the 15 minute oil change and tow it to the dyno, break it in on the dyno and just pound the hell out of it. Others say to be gentle to it for a couple hundred miles then get it tuned.
I did the latter, but I've seen the dyno break-in work too. If you build it right, it should seal up either way. The gentle break in gives you time to look for problems and find them. I dont know which way yields more power, I'd imagine you can go either way.
Expect your gas mileage to suck. When new that thing is gonna be tight. It has to loosen itself up a little bit and all that crap. When I first built it, I was averaging about 30.5 to the gallon, now that its got some miles on it, I'm up over 33.... not bad for a motor with around 275 crank HP, and really not bad considering that running full blast on the race track yields a Ferrari-like 7 mpg.
9. Keep an eye on it - Ok, come on now, there's only one reason to build one.... the stocker didnt cut it. Since you're gonna run it on the edge of insanity, I mean, honestly, no one builds an engine to drive like granny, make sure you have a close eye on all the parameters. Water temp and oil pressure are good. Especially oil pressure. If it gets low, you should be worried. If the clearances are correct, then it ought to have pressure like a stocker (honestly the whole thing should run like stock), if you're coming up 20 psi low, then its too loose, something is off. If its way high, same thing in reverse. And yes, you can do damage if the bearings are too tight as well. You gotta realize that you're shooting for a window that is .0075" wide. It can be done if you measure it all out beforehand (see #2 and #4).
You also ought to have a wideband A/F on it.... no sense blowing a new motor up because you dont know its pinging.
Well that about covers the basics... in short, do it right and it'll work.
1. Do it once - this sounds stupid, but seriously. Dont do pull a head, then decide 6 months later to build a bottom end. Just pull it out, rebuild the whole damn thing at once. Yes.... advanced planning. It works wonders for this kind of stuff.
2. Take your time - 3 weeks before something major is not the time to start building it. Don't forget that fedex sucks, and keep in mind that machine shops have lead times. This is why a spare motor helps... you're not going to drop it off and get it back next day. Working pretty quickly, it took me about 2 months from initial disassembly to dropping it in the car.
3. Do it yourself - this one is kinda optional, but I really think if you can do it, you ought to. It does 2 things. First, it makes you figure it out how to do it all, and learn what goes into it. This helps if the car ever breaks, because it sucks having to try and learn it in the driveway while things are in pieces. Knowing what it should look like, and comparing it to what it does look like is a major advantage. It also makes sure that its built right... or at least you know who's fault it is. From reading internet horror stories about bad engine building, I'd definitely be careful on who built a block if you didnt do it yourself. Some shops dont seem to know any more than your average Joe about it. Second, it makes you have to buy cool tools. Everyone loves tools.
4. Check and recheck - Even the new stuff. Make sure what you buy is actually correct and be sure it goes together like it should. This applies to things like bearings, bolts, gaskets and seals. I had my own run in with this, and heed this one carefully. If you buy new main seals from Honda (the tranny side and the oil pump), they dont install the seals to spec, they just put them in there. You need to make sure they're set the correct distance from the shoulder, and they're straight. Without realizing this, I spun the oil pump seal crooked, tore it and shot oil everywhere, almost lost the motor with 300 miles on it. It was a pain to fix, and a huge stroke of luck I didnt spin all the bearings. Make sure the seals are set right. Plastigauge all the bearings. Chase out all the threads for every bolt in the motor with a set of thread chasers (not taps). Make sure you spin the rotating assembly with the notches for the rods ground into the cylinders so that you know they clear before you find out the hard way.
Another observation I made is that Wiseco doesnt finish deburr the pistons. The smaller they are (75 vs 76) the worse the problem... the reliefs for the exhaust valves are paper thin. Sometimes the cutter breaks through, sometimes it doesnt, but you need to grind off that little piece of flash thats left over so that you dont create a hot spot (this will make the motor predetonate). Basically take it down to the level of the valve relief so the thin edge is gone. Its also wise to run a superfine piece of emory around the top edge of the slug to knock down any high spots, as well as the edges of the ring lands. Dont go crazy. A single pass ought to do it.
5. You cant use too much lube - Load the bearings up with a good assembly lube (obviously just the front sides, leave the sides that go against the journals alone). Do both sides of the thrust bearings though, assembly lube is also pretty good "glue" to hold them there until the crank goes in. I used Clevite 77, which was real thick and goopy, I've also heard good things about Torco. I wouldnt use something real thin to do this. Honda manual says you can use oil, but oil is pretty thin in comparison and can run out, you dont want those bearings dry the first time you crank it. Moly lube is your other best friend, but realize it effects the torque values. If a specific lube is called for (main girdle bolts, cam girdle bolts, ARP studs, etc...) USE IT.
6. Intial start up
Prime the oiling system - common sense, I know. But pull the ECU fuse out and crank the car until the oil pressure light goes off before you fire it up the first time. Save the starter.... go 8-10 seconds at a time, then let it rest. Light should go off after 3 or 4 cranks.
Leave the radiator cap off - You think its full, trust me, it isnt. Its going to burp air for a while, probably violently as it starts to actually fill up. Have several gallons of water or 50/50 on hand. Just add it in as it bleeds out the air.
Do a 15 minute oil change - All that stuff that you werent shy about using to lube the motor up when you built it is now in your oil. You want that. Also in there is the high spots from the cylinder honing, and other random assorted crap that didnt come out in the hot tank or subsequent cleanings.
Drain it out, change the filter and put some new stuff in. I don't know what the current opinion on synthetics is, but I was always told to start a motor on conventional, because it seats all the seals and stuff, whereas synthetic is so slick that it goes past them. REMEMBER - this isnt a factory built engine. Its a high performance engine, you're gonna have to treat it as such.
7. Be a maintenance **** - Keep changing the oil. After the 15 minute change, change it at 100, then 500, then around 1500. Keep an eye on the color. The way mine seemed to come out was that all the clevite came out after 15 minutes, the moly worked its way out in the 100 change (you can tell, the oil is greyish), the 500 mile change was the leftovers, and by the 1500 change, it was fairly good. It helps to drain the oil over a fine screen, coffee filter, or paper towel so you can check for metal bits coming out.
Make sure you're not leaking anything from anywhere, make sure the cooling system is holding. Its also a good idea to do a compression test and/or leak the motor down to make sure the rings seated and the combustion chambers sealed.
At around 500-1000 miles pull the valve cover, retorque all the head studs to make sure they are still to spec. They can stretch a little bit. While you're in there, check your valve rocker clearances, adjust accordingly.
8. Break-in/Tuning - There's argument on this. Some people say fire it up, do the 15 minute oil change and tow it to the dyno, break it in on the dyno and just pound the hell out of it. Others say to be gentle to it for a couple hundred miles then get it tuned.
I did the latter, but I've seen the dyno break-in work too. If you build it right, it should seal up either way. The gentle break in gives you time to look for problems and find them. I dont know which way yields more power, I'd imagine you can go either way.
Expect your gas mileage to suck. When new that thing is gonna be tight. It has to loosen itself up a little bit and all that crap. When I first built it, I was averaging about 30.5 to the gallon, now that its got some miles on it, I'm up over 33.... not bad for a motor with around 275 crank HP, and really not bad considering that running full blast on the race track yields a Ferrari-like 7 mpg.
9. Keep an eye on it - Ok, come on now, there's only one reason to build one.... the stocker didnt cut it. Since you're gonna run it on the edge of insanity, I mean, honestly, no one builds an engine to drive like granny, make sure you have a close eye on all the parameters. Water temp and oil pressure are good. Especially oil pressure. If it gets low, you should be worried. If the clearances are correct, then it ought to have pressure like a stocker (honestly the whole thing should run like stock), if you're coming up 20 psi low, then its too loose, something is off. If its way high, same thing in reverse. And yes, you can do damage if the bearings are too tight as well. You gotta realize that you're shooting for a window that is .0075" wide. It can be done if you measure it all out beforehand (see #2 and #4).
You also ought to have a wideband A/F on it.... no sense blowing a new motor up because you dont know its pinging.
Well that about covers the basics... in short, do it right and it'll work.
Last edited by Boilermaker1; 08-10-2007 at 10:09 PM.
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08-10-2007
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Re: Engine Building... Looking back from 5000 miles
Fantastic stuff boiler. I'm still learning about engines and building them and your post has a ton of good info. Definitely appreciate you taking the time to jot down your observations so the rest of us can learn from it. This will help when I start stuffing things into this lump of aluminum sitting on the floor behind me.
Top notch!
Top notch!
08-10-2007
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WORD!
Nice info Boiler
I actualy polished the bearings with mothers to a smooth shine to help out with the breaking of the parts.
Don't forget that if you are using OEM bearing there is specific place for each.
They aren't all the same.
Youi must have a service book that will explain how to get the proper codes from a numeric system in the cranck and the engine block.
Each bearing has it's place.
Honda used colors to identify each bearing.
Not all engines use the same bearing placement each engine has it's own.
Nice info Boiler
I actualy polished the bearings with mothers to a smooth shine to help out with the breaking of the parts.
Don't forget that if you are using OEM bearing there is specific place for each.
They aren't all the same.
Youi must have a service book that will explain how to get the proper codes from a numeric system in the cranck and the engine block.
Each bearing has it's place.
Honda used colors to identify each bearing.
Not all engines use the same bearing placement each engine has it's own.
08-10-2007
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this is great. whenever i do have the money.. i will definatly be reading this and looking at so many more things on this site from all the builds. this helps everybody!
08-10-2007
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very good info, its amazing how detailed you gotta be with this stuff which is why i always tell people diy. shops dont care about detail, they throw it all together and take your money.
08-11-2007
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Good stuff. It seems like common sence stuff, but then again you think that you can get away with this or that, but reading someone else tell you to do it, makes it that much more likely to get done.
I should be writing something like this sometime in my future... the cash flow pipe is too small these days.
I should be writing something like this sometime in my future... the cash flow pipe is too small these days.
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