D5cIvIc

iTrader: (18)

The money that you pour into a full d17 build will be a lot more than that my friend. A LOT MORE.

What are you talking about custom mounts for a k motor????? mounts have been released for the k motor for quite a while now. They cost roughly 500 bucks brand new and i got mine for 250 shipped used.

also, you DO NOT need kpro to run a k series. You can just run the stock ECU that came with whatever motor that you got. Kpro is only used if you want to be able to tune your car. the only time that it's completely necessary is when you're doing a frank build with a k24 block and a k20 head.

It's all about shopping around and finding the right deals. A guy on this forum fully built his frank for 5g's and he's putting down 279hp and 222tq. That's him being very good at finding parts and putting it together himself.

D5cIvIc

iTrader: (18)

definitely keep us posted on your numbers, i'm quite interested to see what you're putting down on the D17...

m3gach33zy

Well this sounds like it will be an interesting for you TRIZ. I think I might have to go the NA route too. Sounds like its more for me than swapping or going turbo. I suppose I'll have to do my fair share of reading to try to figure out how to do this.

TRIZ

iTrader: (14)

^ No need, I'll figure out the winnin combo for you, lol.

Shoot... civic-driver, do you remember that page where that guy at the honda dealership pulled all the different D series pistons off the shelf and measured them? I'm trying to find that site, and have had the damndest time for the past hour and a half, I've given up on looking for it.

Really, I didnt see it pop up on the last of stations I came across. Whats the address?

m3gach33zy

haha i'm sure you can get me the right combination.. I just need to read up on what all the things do and where they go just for fun

speedfoos

iTrader: (17)

I've seen Paul's (bomerman19) car in person and it's fast for an NA car, faster than a stock k is my estimation as well. He's getting dyno'd on 2 Dec to get his actual numbers up at Jeff's. Don't hate.

01_EM2

exactly those are custom mounts if it aint stock then its aftermarket i.e. custom im new but not stupid obviously hasport has mounts and you still have to pay for mounts. and as for the k-pro i do see it as a must. why would you go and spend all that money into a swap and not have the car tuned. all your doing is keeping it back from its full potential. im NOT against k-swaps at all like i said i would want one in the future my cuzin has a 92 civic eg hatch with a k20a2 swap and its running 13s and its completely stock besides the k-pro and custom exhaust. so yeah obviously the k motor has more potential..... but all i hear on this site and like 3 other sites is how the d17 is worthless and a piece of **** and your ****ing stupid if you try to go n/a.... well this man has takin on that challenge to prove all the d17 haters wrong... as for the car being faster than a k. im pretty sure its faster than an a3 which is an ep3 or base rsx rated at 160bhp just like a b16 out of an 2000 SI but who knows maybe its even faster than that.... i wouldnt doubt it if other members say the same so i would like to see the turn out on this.

jason.az1

yes not stock but ohwells hasport are way better mounts then stock,
Kpro isnt a must and even if you swap a a3 into a em2 and run stock ecu it will be fast and cheap

Im all for NA d17 buts its $$$

-AEM Tru-Time Cam Gear-Civic 01-05 D17
$151.00
-Crower Stage 3 N/A Full Drag Race Camshaft-Civic 01-05 EX
$385.00
-Crower Valve Train Upgrade-Civic 01-05 EX (Used with stages 2 & 3 Crower Cams)
$330.00
-A'PEXi World Sport 2 Exhaust-Civic 01-05 EX 2DR
$435.00
-Dezod Motorsports Walbro 255lph In-tank Fuel Pump Upgrade (install kit included)-Civic 01-05
$105.00
-srt4 injectors
100 bucks maybe more or less
-ARP Head Stud Kit-Honda D16Z 88-95/ D17 01-05 (12-Point Nuts)
$132.00
-Head Gaskets/ all other lil gaskets
150
Megan Racing Shorty 4-1 Header-Civic 01-05 EX
$129.00
Megan Racing High Flow Test Pipe Pipe-Civic 01-05 EX
$95.50
AEM Cold Air Intake-Civic EX 01-05 M/T
$275.00


thats cam,valvetrain,camgear,I/H/E, and fuel upgrade for over 2k
add kpro little over 3k now add tune thats pushing 4k
thats also doing all your own work
you would be 150++ whp for close to if not over 4k

also my price was from dezod which is over priced


I would love to see a fully built d17 NA
because everyone hates on it and no one has done it
im curious to see what power it puts out.
I rode in a stage 2 cam d17 yesterday and it was fun.

TRIZ

iTrader: (14)

^ You dont have Kpro on your list, or the cost of a tune.

And as with most ppl, intake and exhaust is already done. Krpo comes with a cam gear. And I wouldnt want to see anyone running a megan header and test pipe on an NA setup- its just some shiny ebay crap, you need a 4-2-1 race header to throw gains down.

The fuel pump and injectors are also needless at this point. I'm sure the stock fuel system will be fine, the injectors might max out, but from what I've seen they can still be run. If when I'm tuning I realize that they are close to maxing and the fuel pump is about to take a dive, then I'll upgrade them, but I'm not a fan of droppin money where it doesnt need to be dropped. I picked up all my gaskets a long time ago, I dont think they came out to 150 tho.

All in all though, if you start stock, then yeah- you'll need the exhaust and inake and all that. But from the point of someone who's already gota few mods on their car, a NA build isnt crazy expensive... just depends on how far you'r willing to take it.



There is also the question of an intake manifold. JDM fabtech makes some crazy manifolds, but you wont be needing that if your running ITB... I dont know what I'll do- I probably wont worry about it till much further down the road. It would be easy to make ITB's, but I'm worried about the tuning and effiency of them, which is where all the power is made- They could give you crazy gains, or they could totally kill your goals.

m3gach33zy

yeah I found a few prices you could drop too. Like a CAI isn't that expensive anymore. You can probably find a SRI for cheaper on the for sale part of the site. Exhaust you can always custom make your own so you dont have to pay 500 for bent metal tubes. I'm tryin to see if I can get the tools and materials to make my own for like half the price or less.

What do you think about buying some of these parts from ebay? As long as they aren't ebay branded lol

TRIZ

iTrader: (14)

There is a lot of reputable sellers on ebay, who sell the same products that import shops sell, if its cheaper- buy it. Just dont go looking for a header and head to ebay and pick out the cheapest shiny thing.

As for making your own exahust, you need a pipe bender and a way to cut pipe, and a welder. If you got that, then your golden for making your own exhaust. I want to take a welding class at portland community college.

D17alltheway

WOW... i wanna see how this turns out... and all the K-swappers go to hell..jk

01_EM2

I really gotta agree with triz.... a lot of the prices are a dat bit high. Hell I already got a guy that owns a muffler shop/wheel tire shop that will do the pipeing for my exhaust and install for 75 buks.... and like triz said most ppl already have the whole i/H/E cuz that's the first thing most ppl do. And with those prices you have and if we already have it in the car we saved our selves close to or if not more than 1g......

7thgenMugen

iTrader: (3)

Same here on the muffler shop, I bought an axel back insanely cheap and the exhaust shop made it cat-back and installed it for less than 80. Also kudos to all those who defy the norm. I'm doing an N/A build myself and am about as far along as TRIZ. If anyone is seriously interested in headers plz talk to JDM Fabtech. I'm currently on the waiting list for one but he needs enough people interested in it to start really researching and building prototypes.

01_EM2

^^^^props

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

wow this thread has gotten rolling nice

K series are fine but like I said before they don't just cost $150 like a d17 and motors do just blow up thats why at any time of day there is always some one broken down on I-495 capital beltway I have seen motors blown from being driven hard I have seen the blow from bad wrenching, seen them go from just an accidental mistake, and I have seen them go for no reason at all. it happens. But you see if mine goes i am left with the self satisfaction that "I don't care! I get another one tomorrow for $150" not **** that was my k-series i have to start searching so maybe I can find one for under 3 grand in a week.

Also Alot of people don't know this including many k owners but there is one fatal flaw in the desing of the K-series.

The timing chain tensioner. it is operated by oil pressure wich is nice unless you stick it on the track and you get into a hard turn and the revs are already spinning high. the oil sloshes away from the pick up(and it that baffle can only do so much) loose pressure tensioner eases off the chain hopps there goes your motor. so 6000 rpm good suspension hard turn and bam! I have only found one company that has actually addressed this issue and that is TODA. not too hard to blow a K.

I'm not bashing on k's just the ease and cheapness of the d17 has it's advantages. also I have seen a k in a 7thgen before now I know I have never tried to pull one before but to me from the looks of it unless you had a lift and could drop it from the bottom it looks like it could take some time to pull. Mine takes 90 mins to get out from the time the hood pops and the jack slides under untill the the engine is on the ground next to the car.

and it didn't take much to beat a k
150 for crower stage 2 cam
150 for crower valve springs and retainers
900 for k-pro

beat an ep3 and run nose to nose with a type s. tempest racing claimed 144 with matching torque to the wheels that was after I blew out my exhaust gaskets on the way to the tuner and they did a shitty job. I have alot more done to the car now should be above 160 hoping for 170. I think the torque is going to be high but not the hp cause I'll be honest I hit a wall at like 100 miles an hour but I will accelerate like a bat out of hell all the way up to there.

There are k's out there that will beat me and I have driven k series cars and swaped k-series cars but still IMO I have not found a K-series car that is any where near as fun to drive as my car. My car is so much ****ing fun drive, that I get sad if I don't drive it everyday. It's awesome!!!

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

Actually gerry came to me and talked to me about it a while back. He is swamped with stuff and we kinda decided to put it off. there honestly really is no demand because I hate to say it but when some says they are going N/A it usually is a cop out and they never do anything. And Gerry's work is amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! there is no doubt about that it is just art ( I know these things I work in an art gallery) But the only way you can really take advantage of his work is if your running a standalone like k-pro other wise its a waste. His stuff is like gold but it is not for the I/H/E crowd it's for the guys like me and oscar (djmoto) who are actually serious about the N/A and have already invested heavily into it. He is already slammed as it is but I don't think it is really worth his time. And he needs to spend time on his civic anyway I don't think his has moved in 2 years. and thats a car that I really want to see in action. but if you have the money give him a call and talk to him he's arealy great guy and he does the best work I have ever seen the Man has skills!

But if you want a really nice header look for a DC Sports 4-2-1 Full Race Header. It has really nice runners and it goes 2 into 1 about in the middle of where your heat shields would be if you had a cat it flows nicely but it's pricey $500


oh and you don't need a fuel system for an N/A d17 stock injectors are good to like 170-175hp I'm running types S's just in case. And you don't need ARP head bolts unless your running High comp pistons and I think they have to be over 11.5 to 1 comp pistons before you running into a high enough pressure to start lifting the head

jason.az1

read I priced it from Dezod everything they sell is 90% overpriced
but if you start from stock you need all that.
kpro is 1050 here in az and 140 i think for the kpro camgear
you have to buy that it doesn come with it.
tune for NA is 450
reason why i put injectors and pump is like you said you might max them out
so why not upgrade its a cheap upgrade that might help you in the long run.
also has for gaskets i think 150 for all the gaskets sounds right.

also thats buying everything brand new and not shopping around for deals.
yes you can find cheapier parts and what not or used parts.
I just posted prices up because it seem to me pople thought building the head of the d17 and going NA is cheap that will run around 2k or less
no its $$$$$ I mean Im all for NA d17 but it is not cheap to build one the correct way.


read I priced it from Dezod everything they sell is 90% overpriced

If you build a motor the correct way it shouldnt blow up.
make sure you dont rig stuff to work
make sure you have the $$ for parts needed
and make sure you did it the right way
your motor should be good

like sniperscout if he built me a motor i would know that motor is good to go and if it blew it was driver error...

its cool you beat a ep3 but they are heavy put that k20a3 into a em2 and race again see the outcome....


but i really would like to see a built block/head d17 and see what whp/tq it makes

As for as em2 I have drove or got a ride in
-Sniperscout K24/k20 em2
I drive his car a few times I love it, its fast and really fun to drive
I also ride passenger in his car alot and again very fun.

-Rufus D17a2 on 5 pounds
He gave me a ride around the block and it was fun, i liked it.

-boonecivic d17a2 Stage 2 cam i/h/e no Kpro tho
gave me a ride around the parking lot
I was impressed by the stage2 cam but once he has Kpro his car will be
100 times faster...

So i mean i've been in
-NA-D
-NA-K
-FI-D
em2s so to each there own...


I really wanna see a built d17 i think that would be great
Im really currious of what power it makes
out of the

m3gach33zy

Well you can always find cheaper prices to put up instead of putting up big ones that will make everyone worry about the price of an NA build.

and TRIZ I MIGHT be able to find someone here in Oregon who can let me use a mandrel bender. My uncle works for Gunderson, my grandpa worked for J.H Kelly back in the day, and my dad has a bunch of tools and possible connections, and I know someone who works at boeing too so that should be helpful. And by the looks of it Honder has some experience in the tube bending field. Once I move back to Portland I'm goin to see what I can do.

7thgenMugen

iTrader: (3)

That was my plan if Gerry couldn't get around to it. I was thinking this or the HP full race headers. Either way better than a shorty. Also man I am a college student but I seriously wouldn't invest the money for a N/A build if I was hurting for cash . I have an awesome paying job and a boss who is a stock car racer so... Yeah I know the headers are only like a last thing for those who are WAY into the N/A build but I'm getting there slowly but surely and I prefer Gerry's work over most companies. This is also why his 1000 dollar N/A intake manifold is on my list as well. Great guy, awesome products, not much more to say.

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

For everybody out there MOTORS do just go! It happens from time to time You can ask Andyman he'll say the same damm thing they can just go. I had one brand new timing belt tensioner 4 months old new timing belt the works, tensioner went sitting in bumper to bumper traffic on 95 at 15 miles an hour 1000 to 2000 rpm. took everything but the vtec valves. things go wrong it happens and no matter how much you baby a car, how good your motor is built, or how much preventative maintenance you do you still can't predict everything. Motors can just go.

wikkaco0

@ TRIZ: Probably the 3rd or 4th time I post this link. So here it is again.
http://heeltoeauto.com/httech/YaBB.pl?num=1160787887

Here's some important things we should address to get our NA builds going.

Maxi lite rods: Does the block have to be notched to clear the rods?
Civic GX pistons: Will they clear the valves or will they have to be notched? (I know they have to be notched to fit in a stroked D16A6 according to honda tuning article)

Debating between all aftermarket rods and pistons or just using GX pistons on stock rods with ARP bolts.

As it stands, my setup has an A2 head (stock casting) with a stage 2 NA cam, stock A1 bottom end, intake, header (cheap megan LX header, thats right! hate me), exhaust, no catalytic converter, k pro street tuned with plx wideband. Wont be passing by a dyno untill I build the bottom end.

For those of you who have similar setups to me, what are you revving to on stock bottom ends? im doing a modest 7100rpm.

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

First I'm spinning to 8100 rpm everyday couple times a day stock rods with ARP rod bolts (which cost all of $35). On the last motor I had in the one that I destroyed all the bearings and scored the crank from loss of oil due to hard cornering. I pulled everything apart and thoroughly inspected it all. the high rpm didn't affect the rods at all aside from the bearings the looked like I just pulled them out of the bags at the honda dealership thats also 85,000 miles on them.

2. Don't know if the block has to be notched for the maxi-lite rods but some were on www.theoldone.com there is an article on building motors (i think a d16) that shows you how to nothc a block it's not hard.

3. the standard size GX pistons will clear the valves. the .25 and .50 overbore should, But don't know cause andys machine shop found that his .50 overbore wisecos had to be notched. the head and the cam shaft on the GX are from an d17A1 (nonvtec)
in regards to the honda tuning article they also decked the block and then ended up with a 13.something to one compression ratio they also cold welded the head. And another note on that I talked to a friend that had seen the car run a couple years back before they put it up in moth ***** and they said it ran great it was able to handle the high compression really well on the d17 rods and gx pistons but it was also running race gas but it did not have the advantage of running k-pro and you can get away more with spark safer on the k-pro


4. there is also two different sets of stock rods the ones that everyone has and the ones that are in the gx. The GX has a differrent part # for the rods I think they are shot peened but dunno should be stronger than the standard rod.

wikkaco0

Excellent, looks like I will be ordering new PMS pistons this winter. Currency exchange rate isn't in my favor right now and the GX was never sold in Canada.

TRIZ

iTrader: (14)

Hmm... just got to thinking, if all the **** that spins in the block will spin faster if its lighter... it looks like high compression pistons are made up of a good amount of material- so wouldnt it also be a good idea to find not only a good piston, but a good lightweight piston? ...or would it be better if it was heavier, because when the air/fuel mixture ignites, it throws the piston down the cylinder and gives more spinning energy to the crank....

Hmmmm...

7thgenMugen

iTrader: (3)

That's a good question. From what I've learned it's better to have lighter pistons, keeping in mind though that the weight of each piston should be the same and if you C&C mill the pistons that you have some one who knows what they're doing. Lightweight = good but milling the wrong areas are a good way to cause failures.

Also did anyone find out if the Crower Maxi-lite rod were actually any lighter than stock?

TRIZ

iTrader: (14)

^ I emailed them, but they didnt get back to me yet... seriously pissing me off, act like a ****ing company and get back to the ppl that wanna drop a grand on your products.

What do you mean by C&C??

lordhelmet

iTrader: (3)

Talking about command and conquer yo! Best game ever.

Naw, I think he was referring to CNC machining.

TRIZ

iTrader: (14)

Got it. I'll email them again when I get home... Or maybe call them if I can dig up a number.

7thgenMugen

iTrader: (3)

Yeah sorry for the typo it was CNC Machining that I was talking about.