mfskarphedin

Digging through an estimate from my mechanic for a bunch of work. Here's part of the estimate:

"Part Left and Right rear knuckle Bushings 2/29.99/59.98
Part Rear knuckle alignment bolts&hardware 1/30.00/30.00
Labor Replace left and right rear knuckle bushings and hardware 5/60.00/300.00"

I can't find much on either Google OR Youtube about this part. Is there another common name for it, and why would this take FIVE HOURS to replace???



Thanks,

Kristen

ezone

I can sit here and make wild guesses that might be right or wrong, but I'd say to have your mechanic clarify and maybe show you on your car what's wrong and what they are talking about.


Did you go to them with a complaint about the rear suspension? Squeak noise on bumps or something?

lowlife9

not much going on in the rear suspension on a 02 civic but if these parts are rusted and seized then things start to become tricky. and you better believe if something can go wrong it will go wrong.

mfskarphedin

Nope, I just went in for a state inspection, and they said they needed replacing, but they'd pass it. The back end is a little sloppy but no noise or anything. Guess I'll email and ask if that was a typo.

ezone

4 bushings @ 1 hour per bushing.....

plus

All wheel alignment @ another hour or so.....


Seems legit?

pnamajck

mfskarphedin … if i were in your shoes … i'd flip him the bird … don't even return for his explanation.

mfskarphedin

Why? I sent an email, and they said it's an accurate estimate of how long it'll take them to do it without DIY tricks like blowtorches and Sawzalls, etc. Which I mentioned, and I could hear his head exploding from down the road.

Maybe I should get an estimate from someone else, a big place in town everybody likes...

ezone

Those are not DIY tricks at all. Those are VERY NECESSARY tools when dealing with older cars and rust.
EDIT: I have many cool tools of destruction for dealing with rust, seized parts and whatnot.



What doesn't necessarily sound legit is the need for these bushings. How bad are they? Why were they recommended?

lowlife9

yeah if i didn't have an impact screwdriver there's no way i would have been able to replace my rotors without drilling out the seized screws. these tools are paramount for working on east coast cars.

ezone

Those screws are that tight no matter where you are. Rust just makes it that much worse, and 'tight all the way out'.

If you find them loose, that means the last person didn't get them tight enough.


You can get them out with a center punch and hammer too. Might not be all that good to reuse after that though.

mfskarphedin

The mechanic just came in after the inspection and recommended they be replaced but didn't say they need to be replaced immediately, or he would have failed it. At the time, I couldn't ask relevant questions, because I had little knowledge of these parts. I just knew from my ex-husband that if "sway bars" (a part mentioned, also "linkage") aren't up to snuff, the car increasingly maneuvers sloppily, and the back end of my car is noticeably more sloppy in cornering and such compared to any other car I've driven. But no noises or anything. However, I don't want to put it off until it breaks.

I need a couple temporary used tires this next week in the rear while I save for a complete new set. I guess I should find a place that can take a look at the bushings for their opinion, too.

Tangent: The left rear toe bolt is frozen really badly (two other mechanics already cranked on it and said "the part" would break it they cranked harder,) so I can't get a 4-wheel alignment, so I gotta spend a bunch to fix that before I can get the General Altimax RT43s I want, and why pay for all that and ruin new tires if these bushings are ****, and my front struts are ****, and my rotors are warped from frozen brake calipers, so my new brake pads also need to be replaced...OMG, give me a gun...

ezone

NOW it's making more sense!
The frozen adjustment you speak of is probably the reason they say it needs bushings.

The bolt for the adjuster is seized in the bushing, and when they crank it as far as they can make it go, it's putting that bushing in a bind. SOMETHING is gonna have to give in order to restore adjustability, that means new bushings and hardware. And a probably a sawzall and torch to get it apart.

lowlife9

a six pack and a sawzall the american way.

Stock 99

I'm surprised nobody has commented on the $60/hr shop rate in the original post yet. Where I live shop rate is no less than $90/hr for a real mechanic. So I don't see that the $400 repair bill is out of line for the work being done.

So front brakes/rotors/calpiers probably around $500 and struts about $500 too + tires. That first mechanic could probably get you all fixed and out the door in one day for somewhere around $1000 - $1500 for all of that (not tires, of course). Otherwise sell it for a reasonable price stating it just passed a state inspection. Some people can do their own work and if the price is right then they won't care about those repairs. It's a 13 year old car...cars need repairs from time to time that's just life.

lowlife9

yeah but states differ dramatically in cost my state of connecticut has a minimum wage of $8 dollars an hour how bought yours ?

mfskarphedin

I've been FBing him, and he said the only way they would do it if the bolts won't come out is to melt out the bushing, take off the knuckle, and put it on a press to remove the outer collar - no Sawzalls. He doesn't want to risk damaging the knuckles and have to replace them. He said I might get lucky, and the knuckle bushings will come out easily and cheaply, but being an old car in the Northeast, he gave me an estimate for maximum possible financial damage.

I watch way too many DIY videos on Youtube, I guess.

The frozen toe bolt is something completely separate, I believe. I'm writing a response to him asking to clarify that specific issue as we speak. I just was trying to find a schematic of rear alignment parts so I could ask the right questions, and my own thread here came up on Google as the third link after wikipedia articles that weren't relevant at all. My Google-fu fails me tonight!

mfskarphedin

Yep, best hourly rate in the area. I did get an online quote from another big shop the next town over, and they quoted everything higher.

ezone

Best pic I could find at the moment.

The bushings you have been talking about for one side are parts #12 and 13.
The toe adjuster is made up of bolt #16 (with eccentric washer) and eccentric washer #17, plus a nut #23.

The bolt #16 goes through a pair of ears welded to the lower control arm, and goes through bushing #13.
The bolt #16 is stuck inside the steel center sleeve of bushing #13. That sleeve is bonded to the rubber of the bushing. If it is forced too far it will tear the rubber in the bushing.

ezone

Right side toe adjuster on some car

mfskarphedin

Ah, thank you guys so much for finally explaining everything to me! I was very confused by the estimate that did not indicate that the knuckle bushing replacement was actually the repair for the toe bolt and that my mechanic was estimating worse case scenario for doing both sides at the same time by removing the knuckle and using an actual press to get the outer collars of the bushings out of the knuckles.

I was very confused by videos and articles and diagrams for previous generation Civics and Integras that showed adjusting the toe with a compensator arm. I also now realize that the whole sway bar linkage thing wasn't even included on the estimate and has nothing to do with this post other than my own confused assumptions. In the end, I came to believe that my car had suspension like the diagram on the left, but in reality, I now see that it has rear suspension like the diagram on the right of this picture:



I kinda feel stupid, but I know I'm not stupid, nor is it because I'm a woman; I'm just not a mechanic (well, maybe previous mechanics not using BIIIG WOOORDS like "tear the bushing," or lower control arm or rear trailing arm or knuckle is partly to blame.) :/ But I learned a lot, which I always enjoy in the end, and I feel a lot better about my mechanic. I went to the same guy for 20 years previously, and it's so hard to trust someone new, even though I know he's a good guy, personally. It's trust in his skills that I have to build, and those are my own personal demons. I also have to learn how to ask them better questions and more often.

Anyway, now that I know what's what for the most part, I do have a couple small followup questions, if you all will bear with me, so here's that diagram again, marked up for you:



Where in the diagram is the lower control arm? The part I highlighted in red?

And what is #10? An alternate variety of the part marked in red?

Where exactly does the sway bar linkage connect to the other parts? Is it the bracket I marked in blue? I mean, if he's going to be taking apart this whole section anyway...shouldn't I just have him do it at the same time? Or is this a false assumption that it will save me money in the end? I don't have the finances to do too much work at once.

Finally, referring to the first diagram I posted up above, why does the 7th Gen Civic have the style of suspension on the right? It seems...cheap, or cheesy, and unnecessarily complex. Is it just cost that determined this design? The one on the left seems so sturdy and neat and simple.

Thank you guys so much for your help!

Kristen

ezone

That reminded me of another quote I frequently see around here:

===================================

By post 12 I finally figured out why, I probably did a lousy job of explaining though. I'm overly technical, I tend to forget others may not be.

Neither of those really match your car.

I still haven't found a good diagram of the car though.
This might work (with the exception of coil spring placement--this is for a much newer car)


Visual aids help a lot, it's tough to grasp a concept when you have no idea what's involved and how it all works in the first place. Hell, I didn't really understand what you were talking about at first.
That's why I suggested you have the mechanic show and explain.



The lower control arm is made up of all the parts within the outline (box) numbered 14/15 (the two numbers are for left or right side).....One would purchase it (#14 or 15) as a whole unit, although the individually numbered items within the outline can be purchased separately if needed.

Geometry-wise, the lower control arm sorta forms a large "L", or maybe more like 2 sides of a triangle.


2001 through current model Civics and CRV 02 and newer all use very similar rear suspension design.....
Found a pic of the whole right rear lower control arm along with other parts....




10 is a thin plastic cover, it attaches to and covers an area of the flat metal arm right behind it.


What you marked in blue is one half of the strut mount. The tab sticking up immediately above and to the right of the blue is the tab for the sway bar link to attach.

The reality of the job is the lower control arm and the sway bar link and the strut probably will not be removed from the car nor disassembled in any way.

The "knuckle", part #2/3, is what will be removed from the car (detached from the lower control arm and upper arm) and carried to the workbench. It contains 2 of the 4 bushings in question.

To keep it cheap, I'd suggest only replacing the parts that are causing trouble (the side that is stuck).
If the toe adjuster on the other arm is not frozen/stuck/seized right now, I'd suggest take out the adjuster bolt (#16) and grease it or apply anti-seize on the shaft to TRY to keep it from becoming a problem in the near future. (Do the same for the side getting replaced too.)

THEN do the alignment.





Just so you know, I see plenty of cars that have seized adjustments after only a couple years on the road. Yours is better than many...but there isn't a lot one can do to prevent things like this from happening.

mfskarphedin

Well, unfortunately, I say that defensively to myself, to remind me that I'm not stupid or incapable because of my sex, cause I was feeling dumb. When I was a little kid, women didn't even know how to pump their own gas. Every joke was about "women drivers." It sticks with you. I know you guys aren't like that, which is why I come here when I need help. But still some mechanics tend to talk to me in little words, unlike their male customers. Annoying, considering I was a computer science major. Ok, enough personal story - buy the book when it comes out!

Yeah, I realize now you caught it in #12, but I still didn't make the connection that the toe adjuster bolt was IN the knuckle; I still thought they were in separate places. But it's cool, we got it in the end!

I meant the whole knuckle concept vs the one boomerang-shaped rear trailing arm which is featured in video after video after video on Youtube. So it's like...more modular.

Yeah, the complete lack of one on the internet, that I could find anyway, is really weird considering how many Civics of this generation are out there. But ask about a 4th gen, and there are a thousand pictures and diagrams. BOOM!

I wish I could put it on a lift and have someone explain each part. It would take me all of 10 minutes to have just about everything figured out. Another shop did this for me with my old Accord, pointing out the multiple major repairs needed to pass inspection. Saved the guy a whooole lot of 'splaining, and it saved me from any more painful indecision about whether to try to save it or junk it. With my current mechanic, no customers are allowed on the shop floor, forget under a car on a lift.

Hey, and look what I just found! In the Google Images search on "EF Civic rear suspension..."




Seriously?


So there's no actual separate part in this design called a "rear trailing arm?" (Though I've read people refer to it as that.) The RTA and LCA are sort of put together into one compact part?

Yeah, that's what I was thinking today. I'm going to take a look at my finances and ask him about just doing the one side, 4 tires, and an alignment - assuming none of the other alignment bolts have seized since my last attempted alignment! Hell, something could go wrong in the front for all we know... Surprise!

Thanks again. I'll do a followup about what happened when I get something worked out!

ezone

Technically, no. Not on 7th gen and newer.
I'm sure people use the terms interchangeably, but they really are not.

Suspension designs could be an entire Geometry class put to use in real life....in 3D.
Minus the proofs LOL

Triangle is the strongest shape, a good many suspension systems employ this shape heavily.
Then parallelogram, trapezoid, and more.
Technically, no again IMO.
Trailing arm suspension is different from yours, your car uses a one piece lower control arm.
Trailing arm suspension also would use lateral arms to make up part of the triangle shape.
Trailing arm, anchored at the leading end, controls movement in the fore-aft plane..... lateral arm(s) connected to the rear end of the trailing arm are to control movement inward and outward.
All these items are allowed to pivot in order to allow up and down movement at the point farthest away from the anchored ends.
There are many more parts involved that control how the wheel stands up 'straight' and points 'forward' as the suspension moves.




And this video... Rear suspension in a CRV, it's the same basic design as the Civic but you can see it move as the guy drives

mfskarphedin

That video was mesmerizing. Kinda like Hypnotoad...

Thanks again!