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Alignment and Caster kit help...

Old 05-25-2004
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Alignment and Caster kit help...

alright i installed some Tein SS a few weeks ago, and been trying to get an alignment done(haven't had any free time in awhile) anyways i called up a shop to get a quote asked if they could work on the lowered vehicle, said he could, i asked about toe and camber if that was included as part of the price he said it usually was but that i probably needed a caster kit to adjust that as well...is this a standard practice to have to get a caster kit for an alingment(haven't heard much about it, only in extreme cases of hitting curbs or big holes of doom)...and i do have a camber kit both front and rear...so is this guy ready to milk the money or is this pretty common(he hasn't even seen the car) Thanks for any help
Old 05-25-2004
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You probably won't need it. How low is your car? I lowered mine 2 inches and didn't need one, just the camber kit.
Old 05-25-2004
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ive been doing alignments for loooooooong time and never heard of a caster kit for our civics. Not saying none makes one, just ive never heard of one. So its more likely he didnt know what he was talking about, or he was trying to scam ya. Typicaly if caster is out its because the car has been in some sort of accident and caused the unibody/lower control arm/ strut tower to drastically shift
Old 05-25-2004
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lol, just located one....

http://www.k-mac.com.au/makes/honda.htm

either way, with the way thats designed you would get very little adjustment for caster and wouldnt be worth it for $370. Not to mention that its made......

K-MAC Suspension
366 Princes Highway
Rockdale NSW 2216 Australia
Old 05-26-2004
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No you can't change the caster on our civic. It will change when you change the toe.
Old 05-26-2004
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Originally Posted by robbclark1
No you can't change the caster on our civic. It will change when you change the toe.
I have to disagree, toe will NOT change caster at all! But on the other had, changing caster WILL effect toe

http://aligncraft.com/terms/terms.html#FrontCaster

Caster Definition
Caster can be defined as the forward or rearward tilt of the projected steering axis from true vertical, as viewed from the side. This line is formed by extending a line through the upper and lower steering knuckle pivot points. For vehicles with front control arms, visualize the line extending through the upper and lower ball joints. On strut equipped vehicles, the line extends through the lower ball joint to the center of the upper strut mount. Caster is always viewed from the side of the vehicle.When the upper pivot point is rearward of the lower pivot point, caster is positive. If the upper pivot is forward of the lower pivot point, caster is negative. When the two points are straight up and down from each other, the caster is zero. A maximum side to side variation of ±.5° is recommended on most vehicles. Caster is NOT a normal tire wearing angle and is used as a directional control for stability and steering returnability.


Front of Vehicle Caster Effect

Caster effect is necessary so that the load of the vehicle is "carried" through the steering axis line formed on the upper and lower pivot points. Positive caster gives a vehicle directional stability because the tire is being pulled along by the load which is projected in front of the center of the tire contact area. This causes a vehicle with positive caster (point of load ahead of the point of contact) to be harder to steer away from the straight ahead position. With Positive caster, road surface variations have a minimal effect on the tire, the tire will continue to go straight. When a tire has a Negative caster condition, where the projected steering axis point of load is behind the tire point of contact, a vehicle will have a tendency to be easier to steer but will lack directional stability. A vehicle with negative caster is affected by any road surface variation such as small road irregularities or bumps. With the point of load pushing the tire along (negative caster), any bumps or road irregularities which are encountered have a tendency to immediately affect directional stability and vehicle handling.


Front Caster Effects
Effects of Positive Caster
Vehicles usually have some positive caster specified since this promotes directional stability, however, excessive positive caster can cause two problems. The first is that excessive caster will cause a high level of road shock to be transmitted to the driver when the vehicle hits a bump, etc. The second problem is that a tire/wheel assembly with positive caster has a tendency to toe inward when the vehicle is being driven. If one side has more positive caster than the other, this causes it to toe inward with more force than the other side. This will cause a lead or pull to the side with least amount of positive caster.

Effects of Caster on Tire Wear
When set with a substantial amount of caster, the spindle travels in a vertical arc, causing it to move up and down and raise and lower the wheels as the steering wheel is turned. Because of this, camber changes occur. With a high amount of positive caster, the camber changes that occur, especially at low speeds in tight turns, cause the tires to show wear on their shoulders. In high speed cornering, the vehicle tends to continue straight ahead when the steering is initially turned. Due to this, and the amount of camber change that takes place when a spindle travels through its arc of travel, the shoulders of the tires on a vehicle may scrub and wear. When a left turn is made at a fairly high rate of speed with a vehicle which has positive caster, the caster of the left front wheel changes toward positive but the momentum of the vehicle is in a straight ahead direction. This causes the inside of the left front tire to scrub as it is turned. Just the opposite effect takes place on the right wheel as the vehicle is turned left at high speed. The right front wheel's camber will go negative but the outside edge of the tire is scrubbed because of the vehicle's momentum to go straight. On some vehicles setting caster more than +2.5° will cause scrub problems.
Old 05-26-2004
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You can disagree all you want, but when I watched the guy fix the toe on my car the caster changed.
Old 05-26-2004
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Ok well to be not so polite , its IMPOSSIBLE for toe to effect caster.

Caster Definition
Caster can be defined as the forward or rearward tilt of the projected steering axis from true vertical, as viewed from the side. This line is formed by extending a line through the upper and lower steering knuckle pivot points.
As it states this angle is controled by the two pivot points. On our cars it would be the lower ball joint and the upper strut plate. And by adjusting the toe adjuster this angle will NEVER change. The ONLY way caster can change is if the upper or lower piviot point moves forward or backward. And if you truely did see caster change on his machine while toe was being adjusted it was on whats called a live screen. Live screens that show caster will change when the alignment head is nolonger level. Now if he would have had the head locked while adjusting toe its possible that you may have seen a change in the number on the screen. But if he were to remeasure caster or even level and lock the head after the toe adjustment it would still show the same number. I've been doing alignmnets for 16 years, i know my way around alignment angles and machines.

Last edited by tfnaaf; 05-26-2004 at 11:13 PM.
Old 05-27-2004
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I know how caster works and i wasn't being rude. It really doesn't matter to me what affects what at this point. There is no caster adjustbility on the 7thgen unless you find a way around the lower ball joint and get a caster plate. Even a caster plate wouldn't do much for caster due to the large front control arm. so basically caster is set. I really don't want to argue what affects what since the caster is set, it really doesn't matter. You can't get any more or any less caster out of your wheels unless you do some modifications.
Old 05-27-2004
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i wasnt trying to be rude either, but just wanted to make a point that toe wont change caster /rant off
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