PrecisnTec

iTrader: (2)

After changing the brake pads on my car the pedal wasn't as firm and the brakes didn't engage as quickly as they did when the car was newer. I bled the front brake calipers and my passenger side was fine. No air bubbles. On the driver side when I opened the valve I had a nice large air bubble come out through the line followed by a series of tiny air bubbles. Repeating the process I still continue to get about 4 or 5 tiny air bubbles when opening the valve and letting the fluid out. In the mornings or after the car has sat for a few hours the pedal is extremely soft. The pedals engage but you have to get it to the floor before it happens. After running for a few minutes it will tighten up some but still doesn't feel right.

What could be the problem? I am not leaking any fluid and the only other thing I can think of is that I didn't bleed the rear brake cylinders and that there could be something there. Otherwise I'm out of ideas and I don't feel like bringing it in to the dealer due to the turnaround. (have warranty).

Thanks
__________________

Da1lyDr1ver

iTrader: (6)

try rebleeding your brakes. i think the proper procedure is to bleed the brakes starting from the furthest wheel from the brake cylinder to the closest.

civydcex

I would start with going through the normal bleeding process. Start at pass rear, driver rear, pass front, driver front again, then if that dont work try bleeding the abs unit at the master cylinder!!! I have noticed this helps, I had the same issue!! Good luck

2002civicLX2002

go through the proper procedure like stated above. make sure your resovoir cap is on tightly so that no air gets in. if it still doesnt work then my guess is that it might be a master cylinder. EX? ABS?

DaMadScientist

iTrader: (10)

you my friend shouldnt be giving wrong advice...the 7thgen civic does not follow the standard bleed procedure, it starts for the driver's front, passenger's front, passenger's rear, and then driver's rear. You need to have the resevior cap off so a vaccum is created and the fluid flows when the bleeder screw is open....open the resevior and stuff a towel over it. Your pedal is soft because you did not bleed all four brakes. You need two people to bleed brakes efficently, one person to bleed and one person to step on the pedal. Always use a clear tube on the bleeder screw so that it does not go everywhere cause brake fluid will eat away paint, have the guy that stepping on the pedal, push the brake about 20x times to relieve the vaccum from the brake booster, when it been pumped 20x times, have him hold the pedal down, it should be firm because your cars not on. Turn the bleeder screw and fluid should rush out and the pedal should sink to the floor, close the bleeder screw and thats how you bleed brakes...do it on all four corners. Also make sure to refill the resevoir with fluid after each bleed or else youll get air into your MC and it will be a even bigger headache

+rep would be appreciated

PrecisnTec

iTrader: (2)

Slow down there slick, I'll rep ya' good when I get this fixed. j/k

But seriously, Expand on air in the master cylinder. I initially changed pads once I started hearing the tattle tale making metal on metal noise. I also realized at this point my brake fluid level was extermely low. So I'm wondering if I may have gotten air in the master cylinder. Never the less I started with the driver front caliper, had a nice big air bubble come out and then several small bubbles kept trickling out. (this continued after I checked the other caliper and for the 7 or 8 times I bled the driver side caliper). When I got to the Passenger front caliper I had no air at all. Just a straight flow of fluid came out.

So Maybe I need to bleed the brake cylinders as well and then keep bleeding the driver caliper until it stops? Would a faulty brake line, brake caliper, booster or master cylinder cause these problems as well? I do not have any fluid leakage.

Thanks again!

DaMadScientist

iTrader: (10)

if you look at your master cylinder, there is the actualy resevoir part where you pour your fluid in and then a part that goes into the brake booster, if your fluid gets below the min line, air will get trapped within the part that goes into the brake booster which will decrease brake efficency. All you would need to do is bleed the brakes once....are you doing this by urself ?

I have a big hunch that you are not properly bleeding your brakes, because if there is not brake pressure ( pressing the brake pedal ) air will get in through the bleeder screw.

PrecisnTec

iTrader: (2)

I have a clear hose on the bleeder, (snug fit) i have the wife pump the brakes 4 or 5 time then push in and have her hold it in while I slowly open the bleeder and have her hold the pedal all the way in. I watch the fluid and bubbles come out and when they stop moving I close the valve and let her release the pedal. Then have her repeat, pump, hold, open valve, wait until things stop moving, close, release and repeat.

Correct me where I may be doing something wrong.

Thanks

Da1lyDr1ver

iTrader: (6)

you're doing it right, there might be a problem with your brake booster if you're having a real soft pedal feel. but i'm not sure how to check that, sorry.

DaMadScientist

iTrader: (10)

are you doing it on the drums too...?

PrecisnTec

iTrader: (2)

Negative, I "assumed" since the problem started when I changed out the front pads that the problem was isolated there.

DaMadScientist

iTrader: (10)

thats why...bleed all around, problem solved, the drum bleed screws are a pain in the ***, they are on the back of the drum...be very careful not to strip them...because if you do your gonna need to get a whole new wheel cylinder...and a socket wont fit...so you got to use a wrench, what i would do is loosen the screw first...even if you get them loose they wont leak...and then bleed all around one last time.

PrecisnTec

iTrader: (2)

10-4. Thank god I got a friend coming over tonight to help. Guess I'll get the car up on 4 jack stands and take all the wheels off and prepare to get busy.

Thanks again!

civydcex

Kind of funny the dealer told me to do it the normal way!!
Worked for me, no problems since!!! People are always look to one up each other on this site, congrats bro, your the lucky winner of, "*** of the Day"

DaMadScientist

iTrader: (10)

The dealer might tell you one thing...but many people on the site had problems with dealerships, im actually following the service manual that Honda wrote themselves...so im guessing in your eyes the dealership takes presedence of the actual manufacture of the car, so im guessing the dealership also told you, you need to replace your blinker fluid too..i might be the *** of the day, but atleast i know my **** and not going to the dealership to ask them how to bleed my brakes ...why would they tell you information that they provide a service for.

I was being a nice guy and trying to help out...i could of just told the guy to search cause this had been covered many times before

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

word of advice, most of the average civic owners here know more than the dealer does. the top mechanic at my dealer does not even know how to use torque wrench. buy the service book, it actually has the correct info. i would never trust what a dealer tells me.

tfnaaf

iTrader: (2)

Not nessessarily true. It could be becaus they are new brake pads. Did you surface the brake rotors? Did you adjust up the rear brakes? And NEVER push the brake pedal to the floor when bleeding brakes. By doing so you push the piston/seals into a posistion that they have most like never been in for 1,000's of miles and can cause damage to the master cyl.

When you changed the pads did you open the hyd system (bleeder, brake hose, piston poped out of caliper, losened a brake line) ????? If not and the pedal felt fine before then its most likely the pedal feels different because of they are new pads. Did you surface the brake rotors? Did you have to press the piston back into the caliper to make room for the pads? Is the car an EX (abs brakes)? How did you make room for the new pads? There are many things that LOTS of people dont know when it comes to brakes. Thou lots of internet mechanics will tell you its an easy DIY there are lots of things that CAN go wrong that you may or may not have the skills to repair/diagnos.

Mr_Plenty

iTrader: (3)

I WAS just gonna point out this information as well...alotta of misinformation occurs in this forum...and thats why some many people rarely check in...and for those who didnt know MC= Master Cylinder (Brake).

roll_outz

Bleeding the THe brake!! I thought its only for older model.. I changed my brakes many times and never done bleeding..Dealer dont do brake bleeding techniq..You jaz giving ur self hard time..Well correct if Im wrong..

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

when i had new pads put on, i didnt notice a difference at all in braking or pedal feel. all they did was swap the pads, no other adjustments or anything. our brakes warp easily so i would recommend not braking above 40mph when possible. i had the pads changed at 20k miles cause i didnt know how to brake properly and it was feeling like the rotors were warping due to vibration. i got the new pads and took care of them, now im at 55k and they are still doing great.

DaMadScientist

iTrader: (10)

what are u talking about...when you bleed brakes all the brake pressure is released through the bleeder screw and the piston does not compress.

The pedal is soft cause of new brake pads...brake pedals are always soft due to air being in the line. techincally if only you changed the brakepads you shouldnt even have to bleed the brakes..only if your changing rotors or calipers or brake lines. If the rotors arent surfaced it wouldnt result in soft brakes...it would result in premature brakepad wear and braking vibration. He stated earlier that he changes his brakepads once he hears the sensor...which he would have to push the piston back.

tfnaaf

iTrader: (2)

Well not to sound like a know it all but ive been doing brakes for longer than you have been a live! Im not sure what you mean by your first comment? And as far as being technical about it you NEVER HAVE to bleed the brakes after changing the rotors either. And actually unsurfaced rotors CAN cause a hard brake pedal depending on the quality of the surface of the rotor. But to the origianl poster read the info you have been given and determine what you think is the creditable information and go from there. But i do await your reply with answers to my questions.

DaMadScientist

iTrader: (10)

what i meant about the first comment was that how can you push the caliper piston into a position its never been if all the brake pressure applied to the pedal is escaping...and not be applied to the piston when bleeding. so are you implying that my information is not credible...who do you think you are buddy, i did my research and i know my ****...you are making yourself seem like a complete jackass and giving away false information...id say just dont respond to this thread again.....Let me contradict every statement you just made.

So you say technically you NEVER have to bleed the brakes when changing rotors either..so the either is im assuming when changing brake pads and rotors....so when the thread poster comes back and tells us that he needs brand new master cylinder seals, proportion valve and some ABS components because he changed his rotors and pads and had to push the piston back in and when he did he introduced sediment (a combination of rust and the ashy residue of burned glycol) in his brake fluid which starts to act as a seal for various valves and pistons, and his brakes are all messed up? Will you pay for all his new parts ? Air in the system is the culprit in 90% of low- and spongy-pedal complaints, yet the master cylinder gets wrongfully blamed much of the time. In fact, manufacturers have told that 75% of all the masters they get back under warranty are really okay.

As for your second statement...the surface cause hard braking feel....but how is that so if the brakes werent bled...youd be compressing air thus your soft pedal...not hard pedal.....if you just replaced brakepads. If the rotors need resurfacing im sure he would of noticed already by the horrible shaking of the steering wheel when braking

DO NOT resurface brake rotors just because you are replacing the pads. There is absolutely no reason. You shorten the rotor life, make it thinner so it does not hand the heat as well and spend money you should not be spending.
Almost every auto manufacturer has now come out and confimed that all of thier dealers should not be resurfacing rotors when brakes are done. It is only done to make money for the dealer.

Just cause maybe you are older than me...does not make you any wiser...nor should you think that since im young that i do not know anything...so please do not call my information non-credible..because as you can see from above...your post count does not matter nor does your age...and you might of been changing brakes since i was born...but news flash...brakes back then to brakes now...are completely different. i have done my research. I have read almost every brake thread, FAQ, and DIY on this site as well as honda-tech and other various auto threads, so before you start assuming...remember when you assume....you make an *** out of yourself...especially on a forum

RHCP0801

iTrader: (3)

step on the pedal 3 times and on the third time step on the pedal to the floor, i do this everyday at work and have been for years, thats the way you bleed brakes, you DO push the brake pedal to the floor

DaMadScientist

iTrader: (10)

thanks adam...i said 20 times.....its not wrong...i was just rounding, might be a bit extraneous but its right...its just to relieve the pressure from the lines and the brake booster

xproductionz

iTrader: (14)

hey.. u might want to invest in some steel braided brake lines.. did a world of a difference for me... i have an actual brake bleeder machine.. changed the brake pads... put on some new brembo blanks.. bleeded it with the machine and it was still soft... changed the lines to steel braided.. and guess what.. stiff as hell.. well not stiff but stops real good now

tfnaaf

iTrader: (2)

ok, ...... here is what i said

What this means is DONT push the brake pedal to the floor because it pushes the MASTER CYL Piston and seals into an area of the bore of the MASTER CYL that it hasnt been in a long time and CAN cause damage to the MASTER CYL.

I NEVER told him to push the caliper piston back into the bore. Had you read my post it was asking him HOW he made room for the new pads. As the proper way is to open the bleeder and press the piston back in with the bleeder open then proper bleeding when done. You obviously have SOME of the facts straight.

Here is a quote from an unkown soruce being i dont feel like searching all nite...
http://www.aa1car.com/library/2003/bf110322.htm

here is what GM says and i agree completley but our shop follows the current industry standard to machine all rotors...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...06/ai_n9423983

Sorry that i tried to make you look like a young know it all that gets all his information and knowledge from websites. So just a little history about myself as to i hope show SOME credibility.
Graduated from high school all 3 years auto tech. For a total of 12 semesters of auto shop. senior year i was auto tech's teachers aid for 2 semesters. Graduated Wyo-Tech top 5 of the class. I forget maybe 3rd, after all i am getting old and forgetfull ! I've been to numerious trade schools from Goodyear, hunter, JBC(FMC) Snap-on, GM, Raybestos, Bendix, fvck i forget them all. At work i average prolly 2 brake jobs a day maybe more. Just depends on the day. I've been ASE certified years ago but have not renewed it in the recent years. And as for brake systems changing over the years they really havent other then a few bells and whistles. They still use the basic laws of hydraluics. Granted when i started on brake systems they were using alcohol as primary componet in the brake fluid with leather seals Nahhh im just kidding im not that old!

tfnaaf

iTrader: (2)

and i found a quote that i was looking for on the pedal to the floor during bleeding...

http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/DIY/brakebleed.htm

tfnaaf

iTrader: (2)

and the quotes just keep coming......

http://www.bendixbrakes.com/techCorner/faq.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_bleeding

RHCP0801

iTrader: (3)

so i guess all of the ASE master certified techs i work with are wrong about bleeding brakes even though they have been doing it the same way forever? and even the ASE test about brakes has that a question. Oh and also all of the automotive professors at my school are wrong too? hmmmmmm