mjmautoinnovati

My 2004 Civic EX will not run. I can get it started if I play with the throttle while I turn it over most of the time. But, it will not idle. Both compression and fuel pressure were checked, and are both good. Spark is orange on all 4 cylinders. All 4 spark plugs are new. I've considered replacing the coils. But, it seems odd to me that all 4 coils would go bad a the same time. Any suggestions?

ezone

Cot CEL? Got fault codes?
What's ECT, is it accuate?

Blown head gasket? Crap fuel quality?

mjmautoinnovati

Compression is good. So, that would rule out head gasket. Bad gas is ruled out because this was an intermittent problem for a few weeks, and now it is a full time problem. I have refueled a few times over the past few weeks. I accidentally cleared the fault codes before I got a chance to record them. But, there were 3 faults. The 2 faults that have been off and on for ages were a catalytic converter code and a code about a rocker arm. the 3rd code was about the O2 sensor. But, I've never heard of a car not starting due to a faulty O2 sensor. What do you mean about is the ECT accurate?

mjmautoinnovati

If you mean is the temperature gauge accurate? Then yes, it seems to be.

ezone

That assumption is completely incorrect. Might not be your current problem, but your assumption is incorrect.

Low oil level is the leading cause. Not the only possible cause, but the most common cause.
Plugs getting sooty because the computer can't control fuel correctly?

ECT=Engine Coolant Temperature sensor. That sensor MUST be accurate in order to calculate correct base fuel injection quantity. View in a live data list on a good scanner

mjmautoinnovati

The rocker arm code used to come on a lot if the oil was low. The car imposed a rev limiter when this happened. So, that was my indicator to add oil. In the past, adding oil always fixed the code. Now, the rocker arm actuator code is on even with correct oil level. Would a stuck rocker arm actuator keep the car from starting? I will check the temperature on my scanner tomorrow. What do you think about the spark being orange?

ezone

Repeated oil neglect can and will trash the engine. Yea waiting for it to get so low it codes is neglect . But if it still ran without knocking it's probably not causing the no start.



Color of spark is irrelevant. Length of spark is important.. But no, all 4 coils aren't gonna go bad at once.



What were the compression test numbers? 180 or above is what I expect when I do it.




That leaves fuel and everything related to getting the computer to squirt the right amount in at the right time.


And timing. cam timing hasn't jumped?

mjmautoinnovati

The engine never knocked.

This problem occurred twice where it would not start. (I'm making an assumption that both times were the same problem) Both times the car had been running for a long while and was very warm. After first time that it happened (about 2 weeks ago), I let it cool down, added some antifreeze, put on a new radiator cap (the old one had a split seal), and it ran fine for 2 weeks after that. I chalked it up to overheating. Although I did not notice if the temperature gauge was high or not. That makes me think that the timing belt could not have jumped. The timing belt would have had to jump back to the correct position to run well again. But, I will double check that tomorrow.

As for compression, all 4 cylinders were about 180psi after about 10 rotations.

On a side note, I shot some ether in to the throttle body while I was turning it over, and it still did not want to start.

My thoughts were that if it won't start with good compression and some ether, then it has to be an ignition problem.

ezone

If it's already got too much fuel, adding even more fuel (ether is fuel) won't get it to fire.






When it won't start, pull a plug out and see if it's wet?

mjmautoinnovati

Temperature shows 75 degrees on the scanner, same as the outside air temperature at the time. I may not have time to check the plugs for moisture and cam timing for a few days.

As far as when I checked spark, I just used an old plug grounded to the manifold. I have read that you should actually use a spark tester to impose more load on the coil. What is your opinion on that?

ezone

But it starts and runs fine at all other times? How often does it act up?

You'd have to check plugs and whatnot while the problem is acting up. Checking when the problem is gone probably won't reveal useful clues.



Does it misfire or anything once it runs? Does it just idle far too low?
IAC valve stuck?

mjmautoinnovati

The car will not run for more than 3 seconds now.

Let me explain fully in one post, since all the info is spread between several posts. The catalytic converter fault has been there for at least a year. I never found a reason to replace the converter because we don't have emissions check where I live. . The rocker arm actuator fault has come on several times over the past year only when the oil was low. ( I know that I should have never let it get to that point.) But, within the past few weeks, the rocker arm actuator code was there even when the oil level was correct. The o2 sensor code came on probably about a week ago. I have cleared the codes yesterday, because I disconnected the battery while troubleshooting.

So, 2 weeks ago, while I was idling in a parking lot on a 90+ degree day, the car sputtered for a minute, then stalled. It would not start back up. I also heard a coolant hissing sound. I had the car towed back home. I noticed that the radiator cap had a split in the seal, which would explain the hissing. So, I replaced the radiator cap and added coolant. I started the car and it ran fine for 2 weeks (I drove it every day ). I assumed that the car was just overheating and that I had fixed the problem by replacing the radiator cap. I am now questioning if the problem that occurred 2 weeks ago is even related to the problem that I am how having. I originally assumed that it was the same problem, because the car rarely breaks, and in my mind there is no way that car cold have 2 different problems in 2 weeks.

Fast forward to 2 days ago. Once again, the car stalled while on the road. I had it towed back home. It did start and idle once it cooled back down. But, it idled and revved up very rough. When I got around to troubleshooting the car yesterday, I could not get the car to start at all. If I turn it over, it sounds like it wants to start, but won't start. If I put the pedal to the floor while turning it over, I can get it to run very rough for maybe 3 seconds. During this 3 seconds, it just sounds like it is missing. I can make a video oft his happening, if it helps.

So, while the car was NOT wanting to start. I have confirmed that compression on all 4 cylinders is at 180psi, and that fuel pressure is at 40 psi. Also, checked the live data on the temperature sensor when the car was cold and it was accurate to the outside air temperature of 75 degrees.

ezone

Could certainly have done damage to the head/gasket during an overheat. Coolant entering cylinder(s) would wash out the spark plugs and wet plugs cannot fire.



Possible plugged up cat/exhaust? You could first remove the primary O2 sensor and see if that lets it start and run just a little better, any little improvement would be a clue.
If that helped any, then you could unbolt the exhaust pipe from the manifold and see if that allows the engine to run and rev up....

mjmautoinnovati

You're the man. The exhaust was plugged. Probably the Cat. converter. I never would have figured this out on my own.

ezone

Glad you got it figured out!

Slumpertcivic

mjmautoinnovati

What do you mean by oil going out the exhaust valves? Are you referring to the rocker arm actuator problem? I am just starting to learn about the rocker arm actuator system. Or, are you saying that oil in the exhaust is what plugged the converter?

BrotatoChip

Bingo. No sense in installing a good cat if it is just going to plug again.

mjmautoinnovati

I have just ordered a cat on Amazon Prime for $140. As soon as I have that installed, I am going to address all of the trouble codes. So, you may see some new posts from me about them. I suspect that the cat went bad due to me neglecting the trouble codes, in addition to the car having 208,000 miles on it. I've learned my lesson about neglecting the trouble codes. When I broke down 3 days ago, it was on a highway bridge, while pulling a trailer, in moderate traffic. There was no place to pull over. I had to push the car with the 1,000 pound trailer on the back, until I hit a downhill. Luckily some random lady helped me push it. On the downhill, I found a place to stop where I was not blocking traffic. But, definitely not a safe place to sit. Good thing triple A came quickly.

ezone

Simply put, the engine is consuming oil at an excessive rate. Typically it's because of issues with the piston rings.



Anyway, ALL of the oil that is consumed and burned by the engine has to pass through the catalytic converter, and that slowly ruins the cat. First it might start off with just a low efficiency code, but eventually it can lead to real restriction and clogging.

That's not the only possible cause of a cat failure either. Just high mileage is a huge factor, so is poor engine running conditions, excessively rich fuel mixture, misfire, even running out of fuel can damage a cat.

mjmautoinnovati

Oh, I guess that I did not mention it is consuming oil because of a leak that I never addressed. I guess that it could be burning oil as well though. I finally got around to putting some UV dye in the oil a week or so ago, and the leak is coming from the cam plug seal.

ezone

To me, leaking is very different from consuming (burning as you said)
But yea it's probably still burning more than you realize.

The cam plug should be like about USD 11 bux at a dealer. Fix that.

mjmautoinnovati

I don't think that I ever said that it burns oil. Not sure where that came from.

ezone

I think it was an assumption tossed in along the way.
One of several possible common causes of a cat failure and plugging.

You don't know what made it plug up......?

mjmautoinnovati

When I had the airbox lid off, I did notice a small amount of oil coming from the PCV valve in to the airbox. The last time that I added oil, I was on the side of the highway and in a hurry, so I overfilled the oil slightly. Maybe a half inch high on the dipstick. Would overfilling the oil make it go through the PCV valve, or is the PCV valve bad?

I removed out the cat today just to see what was going on with it, and all the guts of it just sort of crumbled out of it when i probed the innards with a screwdriver.

Other than oil, what else could cause a cat to plug?

ezone

Hard to say. Could be.
But I see these engines overfilled frequently with no real noticeable issues too.

FYI the PCV valve is in the back of the block.
The tube to the air box is the valve cover vent. So the element broke apart and caused the restriction? That doesn't really sound like what a slow long term oil issue would do.

What caused it? Thermal, shock or overheating? (misfires, rich running, run out of fuel, etc? Impact damage? Loose substrate?) High mileage?
We might never know. Fix it and go on.


Don't forget that the broken guts may have traveled downstream to the resonator and muffler to cause blockage too.

mjmautoinnovati

My mistake, oil was coming out of the valve cover vent. Is that an indication of anything?

The rear side of the cat innards were in tact, until I broke it apart with a screwdriver. So, I did not think anything got past that. The front of the cat innards were crumbling with no probing of the screwdriver. I am going to replace the resonator pipe, because of its condition at the ends.

ezone

I wouldn't worry about it. I think there's almost always at minimum an oily film by it just because it's the vent and there's always oil vapor in the air. Plus the extra oil you added.



And yes air flow goes both ways at the vent. One way when the engines internal disturbance and flow is less than the total PCV flow, and the other way when it's more than the PCV can flow.

mjmautoinnovati

Thanks for the info. I will get the exhaust back together once the parts come in, and then start addressing some of the other issues.

Slumpertcivic