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Mechanical Problems/Vehicle Issues and Fix-it ForumIf you've got a problem you just can't figure out, a noise you can't diagnose, or a Check Engine Light that won't go away, ask about it here!
I have a question can honda civic engine have bent Valves without the timing belt being broke? And if so what are some things that might cause it? I'm asking because I took my car to the Honda dealership for overheating they told me it was a blown head gasket after them having it a week for repairs they call me and tell me that I have some bent valves also they didn't say nothing about the timing belt being broke told me that they could probably shave down a few of them and replace some others but probably isn't all 16 valves give me a repair price of $1,700 so I just want to make sure that you're not trying to get me over on an extra repair that isn't needed the timing belt also isn't even a year old I had another mechanic install the timing belt and Honda adjusted the timing belt about 6 months ago saying it was a tooth off and they did a valve job on it at the same time after some other issues I had Honda adjusted the valves again a month-and-a-half ago now all of a sudden I've got bent valves is this even possible can you have bent valves without a timing belt break from what I've been reading everything seem to be associated with bent valves and timing belt breaking thanks in advance
Was it running great when it went in?
Was it already running bad?
Did it jump time?
Did a mechanic make a boo boo?
FWIW, and I can't say this is what happened but I know it's certainly possible:
If the head is removed and set face down flat on a hard surface (or maybe inadvertently banged while removing it from the engine), any valves that are open can be bent. There are always a few valves open on one cylinder or another.
Case in point, this head is from a D17 engine, it's timed at #1 TDC--check the open valves for the middle cylinders
Was it running great when it went in?
Was it already running bad?
Did it jump time?
Did a mechanic make a boo boo?
FWIW, and I can't say this is what happened but I know it's certainly possible:
If the head is removed and set face down flat on a hard surface (or maybe inadvertently banged while removing it from the engine), any valves that are open can be bent. There are always a few valves open on one cylinder or another.
Case in point, this head is from a D17 engine, it's timed at #1 TDC--check the open valves for the middle cylinders
ezone the car ran fine when it went in it just started overheating so they were doing a head gasket replacement the lady only told me this after they got the head back from the machine shop nothing before it left, I am honestly thinking either the machine shop or one of the Honda mechs did exactly what you are speaking of a boo boo, I myself don't know anything about cars per say but like I said from everything I been reading online if the valves are bent the timing belt broke and like I said the timing belt isn't even a year old and Honda themselves set the timing on it not even 6/7 months ago with a valve job at the same time, the lady I spoke with didn't even mention a timing belt brakeage when she called me about the belt valves which makes me wonder why and that this is a mechanic mistake I am being made to pay for that's why I am wondering if there are any other ways valves could be bent outside of the timing belt being broke, Honda also did another valve job on the car a month and a half ago cause it had starting issues the mech at that time told me a few of the valve were tight and wasn't moving so well so they did another adjustment but the car did run great when I dropped it off, this car is sucking money out of me left and right ughh. Thanks for your reply
If it had bent valves, it would have had misfire codes that couldn't be remedied by replacing spark plugs, coils, injectors, etc.
(BTW a leaking head gasket could also cause misfire codes that can't be remedied with any of the above parts either)
not even 6/7 months ago with a valve job at the same time,
It already HAD a valve job (major expense just like now) ????
Or was that just a valve adjustment (basic periodic maintenance)?
Honda also did another valve job on the car a month and a half ago cause it had starting issues the mech at that time told me a few of the valve were tight and wasn't moving so well so they did another adjustment but the car did run great
So THIS one was a valve adjustment.....
when she called me about the belt valves which makes me wonder why
You absolutely should wonder why.
It didn't have bent valves when it went into the shop....so what caused them to get bent between the time you dropped it off and the time they called trying to sell you more?
Is this just a revenue grab?
Someone needs to either fess up about damage (tech doing the work......or maybe someone who transported the head to a machine shop),
or maybe the machine shop (or tech doing the valves) needs to quit trying to run up your total bill while holding your car hostage.
Man, I hate being the pessimist, but these "hostage situations" do happen in some shops all the time. (Chain store brake jobs for $2000 comes to mind)
If it had bent valves, it would have had misfire codes that couldn't be remedied by replacing spark plugs, coils, injectors, etc.
(BTW a leaking head gasket could also cause misfire codes that can't be remedied with any of the above parts either)
It already HAD a valve job (major expense just like now) ????
Or was that just a valve adjustment (basic periodic maintenance)?
So THIS one was a valve adjustment..... You absolutely should wonder why.
It didn't have bent valves when it went into the shop....so what caused them to get bent between the time you dropped it off and the time they called trying to sell you more?
Is this just a revenue grab?
Someone needs to either fess up about damage (tech doing the work......or maybe someone who transported the head to a machine shop),
or maybe the machine shop (or tech doing the valves) needs to quit trying to run up your total bill while holding your car hostage.
Man, I hate being the pessimist, but these "hostage situations" do happen in some shops all the time. (Chain store brake jobs for $2000 comes to mind)
Ezone,
Yeah they were valve adjustments that Honda made after I had the head replaced with a refurbished one with all brand new inners valves ect.
I did read a little bit ago that a head gasket being blown could cause bent valves also. is this true?
I totally think i'm being scammed to pay for someone else fault thats why I am asking these questions before I go and pick this car up and start asking question or giving them a piece of my mind, they never mentioned to me about any misfire codes and the check engine light wasn't on when I took it in I have a code reader myself and I read the code the only one shown in pending or history was a P0128 the week before all this happened it was running hot I took it in they told me this code showed up and said it was my thermostat so i paid them 250 dollars to replace it not even 4 days later the same issue happen car running hot and antifreeze blown out onto the engine I took it back that's when a tech told me exhaust was getting into the radiator and cause the antifreeze to blow out and I had a blown head gasket. I asked them they why didn't they catch that before and why I should have to pay for a thermostat that wasn't needed now the service agent said the manger will help my out on cost and now all this other stuff is popping up, this is so frustration I never had so many bad issues with a Honda in my life
No. Welp, no misfire codes then. No bent valves at that time.
P0128 is a typical code for a thermostat, but that's not the only possible cause for that code.
MANY people, even in dealerships, can't diagnose the head gasket problems on these engines on the first try.
My lunch is over, gotta run....
Thanks for your info Ezone it is much appreciated ,i'm sure I can go down there and bitch about all of this but the bottom line is I wont walk out of there with the car unless I pay ughh see ya
Follow up .so I just spoke to Honda cause after 2 weeks they still have my car I spoke with the service agent and asked how the status is she told me the head just came back from the machine shop yesterday she told me that they had to replace all the valves they were all bent ,I told her the car ran fine when I brought it in how can all the valves be bent and the car run fine she didn't have an answer for me ,she then started saying that the valves looks like they were making grooves in the head or something like that and who ever worked on them might not have known what they were doing, I then told her that YOU ALL did the last 2 valve adjustments on the car the last one was 1 and a half months ago she then said well I think it is more about who installed the head and valve originally(she seemed clueless to me) I told her from what I have read bent valves usually mean a timing belt broke(but not in all cases) and the timing belt on the car was only a year old she said well I don't have all the stats with me now cause the mechanic that's working on it is off today she told me last week to replace some of the bent valves would cost 1700 with the head gasket job she told me today the cost is more than 1700 cause they had to replace all the valves but they aren't going to worry about anything extra. This has me stumped I honestly think I am being taken advantage off, I even questioned if the machine shop might have damaged the valves while at there shop she had no say. I think who ever did the last valve job caused all these issues cause right after I got the car back after they did that adjustment I lost my heater while driving thru town after the car has came up to proper temp but works fine on the highway(another thread I have on here) and about 2/3 weeks later all the over heating issues started
,I told her the car ran fine when I brought it in how can all the valves be bent and the car run fine
she had no say.
Stand your ground! They seriously don't have a leg to stand on IMHO, and they were the last ones to touch it as well.
The advisor apparently has no clue, most just parrot whatever the mechanics (or bosses) tell them without real understanding of mechanical functions.
These engines just blow head gaskets.
Nobodys previous work caused it, but at the same time, nobody discovered it in time to avoid overheating either....and seriously most people think we are trying to scam them when we try to tell them there's about to be a serious problem ahead (happened to me countless times). There's a zillion threads on here about blown head gaskets on this engine.
I don't know why someone adjusted valves multiple times, but if they were trying to fix a strange misfire code that might have been a clue the head gasket was seeping antifreeze into a cylinder overnight.
Stand your ground! They seriously don't have a leg to stand on IMHO, and they were the last ones to touch it as well.
The advisor apparently has no clue, most just parrot whatever the mechanics (or bosses) tell them without real understanding of mechanical functions.
These engines just blow head gaskets.
Nobodys previous work caused it, but at the same time, nobody discovered it in time to avoid overheating either....and seriously most people think we are trying to scam them when we try to tell them there's about to be a serious problem ahead (happened to me countless times). There's a zillion threads on here about blown head gaskets on this engine.
I don't know why someone adjusted valves multiple times, but if they were trying to fix a strange misfire code that might have been a clue the head gasket was seeping antifreeze into a cylinder overnight.
Ezone, funny you should say about the misfire cause the month and a half ago when they did the last valve adjustment I took it in cause I was getting multiple engine codes on all cylinders for misfires the car was giving me hell to start then throw the codes for misfires I took it in they looked at it and told me the car didn't have OEM rated spark plugs that was all they checked apparently.The plugs I had in the car were installed about 4 months prior ,Honda wanted to charge me 250.00 to install new OEM rated plugs I said the hell with that cause they are on the top of the engine I can change them myself which I did and of course that didn't fix the issue I was still getting misfire codes so I took it back that's when the service tech at that time told me it needed another valve adjustment and they would do it for free cause they did the one a few months back prior to that one, he told me the mechanic said the valves were real tight but he got it fixed(so they say) after I picked it up I noticed my heater wouldn't blow hot air riding thru town and sitting at stop lights after the car was heated up but it blew hot air on the highway, I was wondering what was going on ,maybe a air bubble in the radiator or heater core was block, I added some antifreeze and it seemed to do ok or better anyway for about a week then the car started not starting again It damn near left me stranded at work 90 miles away but after letting it sit for some time it cranked over and another time a friend put jumper cables on it and it started right up I took it to advanced auto they said the battery was bad so I got another battery for it then about a week or so later the car over heated Honda told me it was the thermostat they replaced it and it wasn't that,it over heated again blowing antifreeze onto the engine that's when they told me I had a blown head gasket and this is where I am now. I lost all faith in this vehicle it has been noting but a money pit since I owned it but like I said before I believe also I am being scammed to pay for someone else mess up aside from the blown head gasket.
If your asking could the mechanic have replaced the head gasket but put the timing belt back on wrong and tried to start the car and blam all your valves got bent, yes that could have happened.
Ask to see security camera footage of the bay while the mechanic was working on the car. Pretty much all dealerships have them.
If he takes the head off and never puts it back on it likely did have bent valves, if he puts it back on and then likely assembly.
Not including the battery, because that can fail at any time.....
The car seems to have the typical problems some of us expect them to have (blown head gasket in this case).
It's your local dealership and personnel you should be having the issues with.
Not including the battery, because that can fail at any time.....
The car seems to have the typical problems some of us expect them to have (blown head gasket in this case).
It's your local dealership and personnel you should be having the issues with.
ezone, yeah I agree with the head gasket issue but this is the 2nd head gasket blown within 70,000 miles something about that seems so wrong, can a bad valve adjustment cause the valves to be bent, and also can a car run with all 16 valves bent and if so how would it sound ,feel, start ect.?
If your asking could the mechanic have replaced the head gasket but put the timing belt back on wrong and tried to start the car and blam all your valves got bent, yes that could have happened.
Ask to see security camera footage of the bay while the mechanic was working on the car. Pretty much all dealerships have them.
If he takes the head off and never puts it back on it likely did have bent valves, if he puts it back on and then likely assembly.
slumper the mechanic never touched the timing belt on this occasion, another mechanic installed the timing belt along with a new water pump on another blown head gasket I had about a year ago and Honda dealership(these same people) adjusted the timing belt about 8 month ago saying the timing was off by a tooth and the valves needed adjusted to fit the new timing, The blown head gasket here now isn't the issue it sucks but it is what it is my issue is the bent valves first they say there was only a few now yesterday it is all 16 valves are bent she quoted me a price of 1700 for replacing a few she tells me now it is way over 1700 now cause they had to replace them all but they aren't going to worry about the extra above the initial quote to me that alone sounds a little shady, I just want to know can a car run with all 16 valves bent of even some and if so how would it sound, act, start ect? and from what I read if you got bent valves it is mostly due to a timing belt being broke and my timing belt here isn't an issue .
I I'm asking because I took my car to the Honda dealership for overheating they told me it was a blown head gasket
So you approved the repair for the head gasket. Well guess what comes off to replace the head gasket, yep the timing belt.
The question is what came next, did they put the engine back together, try to start it and blam every valve got bent because the timing belt was put on wrong?
A week is a long time for a dealer to do a billable job.
So you approved the repair for the head gasket. Well guess what comes off to replace the head gasket, yep the timing belt.
The question is what came next, did they put the engine back together, try to start it and blam every valve got bent because the timing belt was put on wrong?
A week is a long time for a dealer to do a billable job.
as of yesterday 2/23 they just started putting the car back together they did nothing with the timing belt at all, i just read that bent valves normally happen when the timing belts breaks they didn't mention anything to me about a timing belt issue, they told me the machine shop was doing there thing to check for warp age ect on the head and noticed the bent valves as of wed this week 02/21 they had the car two weeks and they told me it should be ready first part of this week coming
3 weeks for what should have been a simple head gasket job, nothing more?
That sounds absurd.
A head gasket job alone could have been in and out in a days time. Maybe two.
Add another day for machine shop services if needed, in most cases.
3 weeks (and probably unnecessary valve damage) is insane.
Confront the general manager/owner of the dealership?
they did nothing with the timing belt at all,
The camshaft is driven by the timing belt. The timing belt must be removed from the camshaft gear in order to remove the cylinder head. There's a lot of chances for this to go very wrong if one isn't careful or doesn't know what they are doing.
3 weeks for what should have been a simple head gasket job, nothing more?
That sounds absurd.
A head gasket job alone could have been in and out in a days time. Maybe two.
Add another day for machine shop services if needed, in most cases.
3 weeks (and probably unnecessary valve damage) is insane.
Confront the general manager/owner of the dealership?
The camshaft is driven by the timing belt. The timing belt must be removed from the camshaft gear in order to remove the cylinder head. There's a lot of chances for this to go very wrong if one isn't careful or doesn't know what they are doing.
Ezone, I totally agree with this and I plan on speaking with a manager something isn't right about this whole thing yeah the head gasket is what it is but everything else along with the time frame they had the car isn't right.as for the timing belt heck i'm no mechanic I didn't realize they had to remove that to get the head off I just read that if you got bent valves it is mostly related to a timing belt issue and the service tech didnt mention anything about the timing belt to me then again if it was a mess up on their part that had to do with the timing belt why would they mention it I guess.I will let you know how it turns out, thanks again for all the advice
Last edited by jessica19699; 02-26-2018 at 07:44 AM.
..........I was still getting misfire codes so I took it back that's when the service tech at that time told me it needed another valve adjustment and they would do it for free cause they did the one a few months back prior to that one, he told me the mechanic said the valves were real tight but he got it fixed(so they say)
Hi. "king of breaking stuff" here... when i was younger and dumber, i burned valves from setting the lash too tight. it will look like the attached image when it starts to happen. if you use hot lash measurements on a cold engine, the valves grow when they are up to temp, stick slightly open, and the valves can erode/melt away
i have a question. i have not had a honda engine apart since a D16 back in the day. if memory serves me correctly, a DOHC motor requires the cams to be removed, and then all the valves are closed(meaning the damage wasn't from setting the head down). is this motor SOHC or DOHC?
4 valves are going to be open all times with this engine (yes technically you could lock the timing 45 degrees and partially hold 8 open but they would be safe )
So if it gets slammed down only 4 could get bent, never all 16 unless the tech slammed it down, picked it up, turned the camshaft 90 degrees and slammed it down again and repeated 2 more times. Technically possible, highly unlikely.
update so I got the car back last Thursday when I picked it up I questioned the bent valves and the service ticket stated that the car had damaged valves all 16 it didn't say they were bent I asked them to explain one of the shop guys who had talked about the issue with the machine shop said the refurbished head I had installed around 8/10 months back was a bad one from the get go they said all the new valves they has installed on the head were off by a fraction which over time caused the flat base part of the valve to wear out and caused a leak which caused the head gasket to blow, they did take 650.00 off the bill it was originally 2200 but I was charged 1600 all in all i'm not a mechanic by far but the story they told me seemed logical, they also stated on the service ticket that they noticed the car makes a slight knocking noise during acceleration when I been driving it this past week I heard it myself, when I give it gas it makes a little knocking noise as soon as I take my foot off the gas it stops I don't hear it when the car idles either and it only seems to do it when I am driving over 40/50 mph the manager told me that the sound is coming from the bottom end of the engine not the top does anyone have any insight to what this might be? i'm worried now that piston damage or some thing bad now has escalated since the car has overheated. im seriously thinking I might want to trade this in on something else the car rides ok it has plenty of power the heat issue was resolved also that must have been tied to all the valves issue also.it is just that slight noise now I cant figure out.If any ideas what this could be please let me know ..thanks in advance
the manager told me that the sound is coming from the bottom end of the engine not the top does anyone have any insight to what this might be?
And that would be classic sound of a rod knocking due to bearing failure.
Your engine is on its last legs so to speak.
Sure someone can take off the oil pan and locate the offending rod(S) and do a bearing change, but once these engines have that sort of problem, they need a professional rebuild to gain back any sort of reliability.
Consider going back to dealer who just charged you $1600 to give you back a car they he knows needs an additional (not sure dealership price but guessing over $2000) of additional engine work and seeing if they can apply that towards a new/used car on the lot...
And that would be classic sound of a rod knocking due to bearing failure.
Your engine is on its last legs so to speak.
Sure someone can take off the oil pan and locate the offending rod(S) and do a bearing change, but once these engines have that sort of problem, they need a professional rebuild to gain back any sort of reliability.
Consider going back to dealer who just charged you $1600 to give you back a car they he knows needs an additional (not sure dealership price but guessing over $2000) of additional engine work and seeing if they can apply that towards a new/used car on the lot...
Thanks for the info slumper thats what I figured as well that this is a possible major issue about to occur, I guess I better start looking to get rid of it before the engine blows and i'm left with nothing.
Newest and last update the Honda engine blew while I was driving home last Wednesday, what an experience that was I trashed the vehicle by donating it, and purchased another used one the engine blew two weeks to the day of getting it back from Honda dealership after spending 1600 for a new head gasket talk about luck, anyway thanks for all the help guys, I don't have any more Hondas so I will be saying good bye to the Honda forum as well.Peace!!
Yeah ezone they were incompetent alright I think I got F**ked over honestly but that fact they listed on the service ticket that there was a slight knocking noise at acceleration i'm sure it would do me no good to go back to them and raise hell, the car has been nothing but bad luck since I owned it so i'm just washing my hands of it, thanks again for all your help ezone you been great
02-18-2018
