Gmwirth

Greetings all! I am having an Issue with my '02 LX Sedan 1.7L. Over the last few weeks I have had the dreaded crank no start issue. I have looked at many other threads related to this topic. I know the 3-4 things necessary for combustion, fuel,air, spark, compression, and in the beginning found that I had some bad plugs. I have found since then that although the plugs were fouled, the real issue appears to be that the engine is flooding. Every time I have the issue, if I pull the plugs, they are wet with gas. My fuel mileage is dropping below 30 mpg to around 28/29 mpg, the car is idling rough, running rich, and the only way to start the car is to get in, push the gas pedal to the floor and crank. doing this usually starts the car, but I want to fix the issue. This vehicle is my daily driver and I have about a 100 mi round trip to work every day. I do not start the car for short amounts of time, I always run it up to operating temp. I would like some input into what could be causing this issue. Could it be a fuel pressure sensor/regulator, fuel injectors or is there something that goes wrong on these that I'm missing? I am new to the Honda world, every other vehicle that I own is a Ford, and other than some of my old carbureted engines, I've never had a flooding issue, so Im a bit stumped as to where to begin. I would appreciate any information or solutions that anyone may have. Thank you in advance for your help! It is much appreciated!

Wankenstein

Here's a related read: http://www.aa1car.com/library/2003/us60324.htm
Purchase or borrow an OBD2 data scanner and obtain readings that will help sort the rich condition out. Somthing like this:

ezone

Got codes?
Got compression?
Got injectors leaking?
Got valve adjust?

Is coolant disappearing?

Got scanner data list?
Data list precheck: ECT and IAT should agree before stone cold startup (parked overnight)(inaccurate/low ECT could contribute to flooding)
MAP and BARO should agree with key on engine off


@ hot idle in park with NO electrical loads, (at sea level): MAP should be below 0.90v, prefer closer to 0.80v. If it's high look for things such as cam timing off, tight valves, and (if equipped) EGR leaking or sticking open

Gmwirth

Greetings all. I apologize for not posting sooner. I have a very busy life, as I'm sure that we all do with work, spouse, kids and all that entails. I am still having the issue intermittently, but always seems to start using the flooding method of holding the gas pedal to the floor and turning the key, until this morning that is. It is a cold morning her in southeastern Colorado, I feel the engine trying to turn over. I pulled the plus and they are wet with gas. Dried them with compressed air, to no avail. I have not yet purchased the OBD2 reader that Megaladong suggested, no extra $ at the moment, but I do have a cheap $20 code reader, and I am not getting and trouble codes at the moment. I randomly get a misfire code for cylinders 3 & 4 if it takes more than one turn of the key to start the car. I attributed that to the the plugs misfiring do to the engine being flooded, but one started, the car runs fine, all be it a little rich. I have compression, no coolant disappearing, a close friend thinks that It may be my crank sensor and that I'm not getting full spark with my plugs. I still have to investigate the leaky injector theory. I would also like to investigate what Ezone is suggesting, however I am a bit lost on your suggestions. further advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you all, for all your help and suggestions!

Slumpertcivic

ezone

Excellent idea.....but I wouldn't pull the fuse because it runs more than just the fuel pump.

Open the glovebox all the way and remove the PGMFI main relay #2, that will shut off JUST the fuel pump
(might need to check all the wire colors in order to verify which of the relays is "main relay #2".)

Gmwirth

Good morning all! I want to thank you all for your advice. The next time I have the opportunity I will pull the main relay #2 and let the car fie on its own. I would like to know about the fuel pressure regulator if anyone has more information. The reason I am looking there is that I have bit really had any experience with an injector going bad, let alone all 4 at once. There is gas on all 4 plugs after trying to start the car when they are pulled after it not starting, even when I hold the gas pedal to the floor and try to start it. Which in itself is troubling as I thought that that procedure was supposed to stop gas from being sprayed into the cylinder. That leads me to believe that its the pressure regulator. I could be wrong, I do have limited knowledge. I am at a loss, but need the vehicle back up and running and dont really have a lot of extra $ to throw at parts. I am also troubled as to where the pressure regulator is located in order to check or replace it. Autozone does not list a pressure regulator for an 02 LX 1.7l, but does list one for an 02 dx 1.7l. To my understanding, the difference between the LX and DX is just a trim level. Can anyone direct me to the fuel pressure regulator? Is it on/before the fuel rail or is it in the tank with the fuel pump pr possibly somwhere else? If anyone could direct me to a fuel system diagram, picture, video, or anything, I would be much appreciative. Any other suggestions or directions would be helpful and appreciated as well. Thank you all for your input, I truly appreciate it, The sooner I get this issue resolved, the sooner I can get back to solving the no heat issue Im also having with this car! LOL!

Slumpertcivic

Gmwirth

Slumper, thank you for your reply and the pictures. I saw that on my fuel rail, but am confused. When I look for the fuel pressure regulator at the parts store, I find the part in the second picture below, and from my research I find that part on the fuel pump, as in the second picture below. Are there 2 pressure regulators? Do I have to get a new fuel rail if the pressure regulator goes bad? Does anyone have any guidance on any of the issues presented here?

The lack of heat is an entirely separate issue. I believe it is coming from a clogged heater core, but have not had the time or warm enough weather to be able to flush it out. The car runs well, when I can get it to start, other than running rich and a bit rough at idle. The car did not die and not restart. The reason I believe that the issue is with the pressure regulator is that I can usually get the car to start by holding down the gas pedal and cranking the car, however if using that procedure it doesn't start and I pull the plugs, they are wet with gas. I figured that the pressure regulator would go out before the injectors would go out, all 4 at once, or the regulator would be pushing to much pressure causing the injectors to leak, even when doing the "flood start" procedure. I figured that if there is to much pressure, that would also cause it to run rich and idle rough. If there is a flaw in my reasoning or something I'm missing, please chime in and educate me as I welcome the input and know that I can be wrong. After all, this is my only Honda, all the rest of the cars I own are Fords and 1 Dodge! LOL! Thanks again for everyone's input!

Slumpertcivic

ezone

2001 and newer Civic uses returnless fuel system.....the regulator is in the tank with the pump. Fuel pressure check should confirm if pressure is in or out of spec......and a test is a hell of a lot cheaper than needlessly replacing a damn reliable Honda fuel pump.

but my first check to consider a fuel pressure issue would be with a scanner and live data list. I can diagnose a whole lot with a good scanner from the comfort of the drivers seat.



Not all injection systems turn injectors all the way off while cranking with the gas pedal floored.

Once cylinders are loaded with liquid fuel, it can soak your fresh dry plugs as soon as you begin cranking it, and wet plugs sure don't fire very easy.


Injectors failing? Not all at the same time on their own....but I've seen bad fuel cause a set of injectors to be ruined.

What's the computer trying to do with the injectors? The injectors only open as long as the computer tells them to open, and the computer calculates that time based on inputs from all the other sensors.. so what's going on there? (good scanner with data may be needed)

Basic mechanical engine processes have to be in order before the fuel injection can do its job....If for example the cam timing is a tooth off or the valves have too little clearances.....either of these issues can cause low compression, and the engine will tend to flood easily because of the low compression, the engine may run excessively rich because of lowered manifold vacuum, which skews some of the sensor inputs to the computer which then believes it needs to inject more fuel then is actually necessary.....but it's still doing exactly what it was programmed to do.

VSPAKE

Did you ever figure out the issue? I'm currently having a problem with no fuel going to the fuel rail.

BrotatoChip

Is the pump working?