scootergmc

Specs:

2004 LX, D17A1, MT, 313k miles. 70 miles per day, non stop and go commute. It's probably never exceeded 5k RPM.

I confirmed a bad HG (#2 cyl) last week after after noticing the temp rising while sitting in the starbucks drive through. Found the full overflow and you know the rest of the story. Well, I've been able to keep driving it by transferring fluid back from the reservoir back to the radiator every morning before I leave. My daily drive is just short enough where the reservoir will fill, but not overflow. So it has given me the chance to get the parts coming.

My goal is to take the car to 500k, and I've noticed a couple other (normal) problems. It's an oilburner. I think it's just #4 cylinder, and it only burns (I'm estimating) at the rate of 1 qt. every 2-3k. While I have everything open, is it worth a ring job, or should I just leave it and start using Mobil 0w oil?

As for the head itself, should I have anything done to it? I've done 2x valve adjustments, and both times I had maybe 2 or 3 valves barely outside spec. The car itself has no power issues, and my seat of the pants dyno tells me there's nothing wrong power wise. I'm tempted to just clean the surface and throw it back on. Do I need new head studs like my old school SB chevy days? I can't imagine these things stretch much, if at all.

Also, is it possible to change the HG without removing all the timing belt stuff? I've seen them done (not sure the make/model) where the cam gear is just slipped off and wired to a bar running the length of the engine bay. I just did the timing belt et. al. about 10k miles ago and would rather not touch that stuff again.

Any other +300,000 mile issues I should be watching?

Anyway, thanks again for the forum. I would not have found the blown HG without the suggestions in the sticky. I probably would've been hunting everything but the HG like I've seen in other threads.

ezone

If you don't own the equipment to check it yourself, send the head to a machine shop to be measured for flatness as soon as you have it off the block.

If no current valve problems, I would not touch them.

Don't set the head flat on any hard surface, turn it on its side or use thick towels or something. There are always valves open somewhere and you can bend them just by setting the head down flat.


If you want to unstick the rings or replace the rings and clean the ring grooves, the time to do it is while the head is off, so line it up now and get it over with. If you don't do it now, it might only get worse.

I pulled these out of the 07 Fit sport with 200k (I got it dirt cheap) for the GF. I did rings and stuff on it while apart for the head gasket job, these had the oil rings stuck pretty good and the oil holes in the ring grooves were all plugged up.



I don't hone or anything, and when we do rings under warranty we don't touch the cylinders at all. Install the rings on the pistons correctly and run it.

As long as there are still original hone crosshatch marks visible in the cylinder walls and no huge vertical gouges, they are ok.
You gotta at least take off the top timing cover... then I use a long hook to release the tensioner spring from its peg so that pulley will relax (if the pulley was installed correctly), then I can usually just slip the belt off the cam gear without unbolting it.

Make sure to not get any oil or antifreeze on the timing belt !!!!1!!one!!1!eleven!!

Kinda like this


If the PS pump bracket is left on the side of the head, it may be tricky to find the end of the spring again for reassembly, but I manage OK.
Single edge razor blades and brake or carb cleaner.
The only thing to clean is the black paint-like stuff from the old head gasket, and even then I just make sure it is smooth, not spotless.
Keeping the surfaces glass smooth is critical.
They are ordinary bolts, you can reuse them.

IDK. Any other rubber gaskets?
Cam seal?
Round plug on the rear of the head?
Bearings?
Sup to you.

If your engine has EGR, take the few minutes to clean (scrape) the carbon buildup out of all the EGR passages in the distribution plate between head and intake manifold.

OE head gasket!

Suck all liquid out of the head bolt holes BEFORE YOU REASSEMBLE!

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

If it's time to change the timing belt, i would do it

water pump could last two or more belts, though

scootergmc

Rings are looking (~$35-40 per hole+ $? conrod bearings) cost prohibitive, at least for OEM. Do you know the manufacturer(s) or have an aftermarket recommendation? Can the rings and pistons really just be cleaned and slapped back in, and bearings be re-torqued to spec? That's really a testament to these engines. If I clean them, is there a preferred method or do I just soak them in some chemdip or spray them down with something like Mopar/Chrysler combustion chamber cleaner and a brush?


I don't have any leaks other than original oil pan gasket, and it doesn't drip, just a little weepy on the corner nearest the filter, but now that I think about it, it could just be residual goo from countless dribbly oil filter changes.

It believe it does (the round black-fin-capped thing), and I will do that.

Will do.

Noted.

ezone

When I did my Fit, I used Hondas rings.
I've really only used factory stuff here at this dealer.
No, I don't know who makes their rings.
I'm sure you can find more on the internet.

I would say yes but you have a ton of miles on yours already and you want to put a pile more on it. $130 is cheap for another 200k+ miles, yes?

Most of the time when an engine has low mileage and is consuming oil, the oil control rings are just stick in their grooves due to carbon buildup.....In this case many times getting them unstuck can restore normal function.

In your case, due to the mileage, I'd urge replacement.
Unless you want to peel all the rings out and measure end gaps to see how much they are worn.

When I was doing the Fit, I had a week before assembly and I had a can of Mopars stuff...and cups that could keep the rings swimming in the cleaner...With soaking and a little persuasion they were free and moving after just a couple days.
I still replaced the rings. (I expected the GF or her kids would run this car 10 years/100k+ if the trans holds up and the body doesn't rust out.)
There was still a lot of carbon stuck in the ring grooves I had to clean (break the rings in half to use as a scraper), and I passed a drill bit through all the oil holes to clear them out. Soaking in cleaner didn't get all that crud out.

The warranty extension re-ring jobs we are doing all the time now on V6 engines typically have anywhere from 60k-200k and higher (warranty was extended to 8 years/no mileage limit), we clean the ring grooves (special tool, then carb spray and bristle brush) and slap new rings in and go.
No new bearings, and reuse rod bolts most of the time unless they are beyond specs (TTY type).

scootergmc

Yes, but another 200k is my pie in the sky goal, realistically I would probably be putting the car in its grave and moving on if it needs work like this again. I just think it would be fun to see half a million on the odometer. I just got a new airbag and seat belt latch- it's like I'm driving a brand new car...

I agree $130 is cheap, but I was doing a little cost/benefit analysis in my head. A sub-60k mi. complete engine for around $500 (+ anything it may need after inspection) vs. present engine (OEM headgasket kit, rings, bearings, anything the head may need, manifold, etc.)... that's all. Heck, I've found multiple reman'd heads for sub-$300 and no core.

I'm surprised I can't find the OE ring supplier. I've found some threads alleging different manufacturers, but nothing I would consider concrete. There are plenty of recommendations for aftermarket, but most opinions involve Folgers coffee can exhaust cars, and those years are long behind me.


And that's probably what I'll do assuming my cylinders look good, just a ring and bearing kit.


Guess I should start paying closer attention to my Pilot...

ezone

Figure any used engine probably has more miles than stated -- and it is gonna need a head gasket, just because. Plus the timing belt stuff, that adds up.If your current cylinder head isn't warped and the valves are ok, you just shaved $300 off your total.

You can probably piece together individual gaskets for the job cheaper than getting the complete head gasket set from Honda which includes valve stem seals you won't need (unless you get a valve job done)....Someone posted a shopping list somewhere in the forum here.
I'd stick with well known ring brands....Hastings, Perfect Circle, etc.

Scout1

If you haven't changed the timing belt now is the time. If it has been changed recently you can pull the head without taking the timing belt all the way off(you probably saw the same video I saw) by tying up the cam gear to a brace. If you are going to do the rings then pull the belt because you will have to rotate the crank anyway

emich

Replace the valve seals too

scootergmc

See OP

See OP

Why? If there's no sign of leak through the exhaust (and there presently isn't) I'm not going to touch them.

scootergmc

What are you seeing when it comes to rod journal bearings? I'm assuming your stuff is getting mic'd and fresh bearings are installed.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

Missed the belt portion, my bad :P

ezone

No, no no.

First step is a visual check only. If they appear normal then they get reused and reassembled, no measuring or anything. (It drove in like that with no unusual noises, it will leave in the same condition)

If we notice serious scratches or obvious signs of oil starvation in the appearance of the bearings, then things may escalate, and our factory rep has to be involved for authorization, etc.. (since these are usually warranty or partial warranty jobs)

scootergmc

Thank you. What did you find on the 200k fit?

ezone

I got the Fit cheap...It was some kind of screwy trade in deal at the car lot, it overheated if you drive it, and none of the wholesale buyers wanted to touch it for fear of it needing an engine, and only one of those people even made a lowball offer.
I gave a little more than that offer, of course after I did some checking and filled it with water and took a test drive.
It was leaking coolant out the rear of the head gasket, and when I took it all apart I found a broken head bolt. Head was actually flat when I measured it, so all it really needed was the head gasket and a set of head bolts.

I pulled the pistons just because it was all apart.....and found stuck oil rings. Replaced the rings.
I reused the rod bearings. They looked normal.
I did replace the thrust bearings so I did look at one main, but it looked as good as the rod bearings.
I put a timing chain in it....just because it was already apart and it was almost at the wear limit measurement.

I think she's got 5k on it already, hasn't used any oil.

emich

Worn -out Valve seals are responsible for oil consumption too.
Don't blame it on the piston rings only.

scootergmc

Yes, I'm aware.

At this point I'm going to assume it's just the rings, based on the firsthand and credible information I've read on this forum. I really haven't read or seen any repetitive issues about valve seals, other than with guys trying to hot rod their engines.

It's been my experience valve issues usually present themselves via the tailpipe. If I find anything I'll take care of it, but at this point, I haven't seen the normal indicators of valve seal problems. If the present in the future, I'll do it then.

scootergmc

Thanks. As it stands now I have the OEM HG kit (by VIN mine was a different part # than the parts thread indicated??) and Hastings standard rings.

I'm still trying to source a cheapish OEM or Magnaflow CA manifold/cat, but that can always come later. A decent welder with some nickel alloy rod may have to do for now. It's passed smog the last two times while eating oil and with the cracked manifold so I'm not too concerned- yet .

G_ROBB89

I read through the thread but may have missed mention of this: If I want to replace piston rings will I then need to remove the timing belt? I want to avoid it if possible...2004 Honda Civic EX

Colin42

Remove it, it's not hard