sharp66

History:
Over the winter, on very cold (<10F) days the car would be difficult to start. It would always start eventually, but when it would it would be in limp mode which it would never recover from. I would then let the car idle like this for a minute or so and then turn it off and back on, and everything would be fine. The code that it through during this had to do with one of the tdc sensors, as well as the o2 sensors (i think 0420 and 0132).

Two weeks ago (now it is spring) i was driving along, stopped, and when i went to go again it went into limp mode, it recovered (without a restart) and i didn't think anything of it. Then last week it did it maybe 10 times in 20 minutes, so it was time to look into it.

I hadn't cleared the last codes since winter, and since it was the same symptom, people had had similar limp mode problems from the camshaft and crankshaft sensors, and the car had 120k with unknown timing belt status, i figured i could do that. So replaced the timing belt, water pump, and the 2 sensors yesterday.

Today:
Still going into limp mode. I can sometimes recover by pushing in the clutch and revving, but most of the time, when it happens, it requires me to let it rest. I did a 15 minute drive where it happened a bunch, a 1 hour drive where it didn't happen, and today I did a 45 minute drive where it happened twice. It doesn't seem to happen when going faster than 55mph, for example it has never happened going 70+. The only code raised since this weekend has been p0132. This is also all on the same tank of gas (about 200 miles into it), so that is a possibility, but seems unlikely.

Could the o2 sensor cause this catastrophic of a failure? What else could I look into? I have a BT OBD2 reader, so I can look at a lot of the sensors (fuel trim bank 1?) if that would help.

Because of the lack of other codes, I don't really know where to start. If it is suggested to replace the o2 sensor this code is for the upstream sensor, right?

ezone

P0132 definition is primary O2 sensor high voltage.
Does the primary O2 sensor (B1S1) output voltage exceed 1.0v when the car acts up?


There's a whole little section in the service manual on how to diagnose it, to determine if it is a sensor problem or a wiring/PCM problem ..... and you need to catch it in the act and hopefully be able to diagnose WHILE it's acting up.

I'd wildass guess it's a bad sensor, and it's intermittently failing. Is it original?
If you replace it, replace it with the same brand the factory installed (NTK or DENSO).

sharp66

Okay, my plan will be to, after work, look at the wiring (i remember it having a lot of slack, like it was a "universal" sensor), then i will drive about 2 miles toward a parts store that does have the ntk in stock, if it doesn't act up by then i will not replace it and, drive home while noting the o2 voltages.

Do you have any pointers of where to look in the service manual? I haven't spent much time with them yet.

ezone

Always immediately suspect


Diagnostics for the fault code you have.

sharp66

Alright, I made it home. I followed the first few steps of the service manual, but i couldn't figure out where the 3x10 ecu connector was, but I think that at that point it didn't matter.

with the engine off, when the pins on the connector are jumped the sensor reads 0.0V, when not jumped it reads 1.3. The second sensor (1x2 the only other one that the reader sees) read 1.3V the whole time.

When keeping the engine under no load, and moving at 3000rpms (my tach and torque disagree on what the rate is by about 500rpms) the primary (1x1) sensor counts up to about 0.9V and then starts again at the bottom, this is on the reader which refreshes every 0.5 seconds, and maybe takes 4 numbers to get from 0.1V to 0.9V (2 seconds).

On the road it only had one hiccup. It was about 1/2 of a mile after I did a strong acceleration (around 5k), i had to pull over and turn it off to get going again. The rest of the ride i drove gently, and had no problems.

When it died the fuel trim went VERY high (i forget if there was a negative or not) but both went to 27. The other values didn't look too different than the rest of the trip.

The 1x1 o2 sensor stayed at 0.0V most of the time, when I would downshift it would go up a little, it didn't seem to follow much of a pattern though, highest value i saw was probably 0.7.

The 1x2 sensor was really strange. it also didn't fluctuate much, BUT was pegged at 1.3V for most of the trip, and then i had to slow down to go through a town and after that it was pegged at 0.0V.

Any ideas?

I will try to log the trip tomorrow, i thought that i had it set up to log these things, but the setting didn't stick.

ezone

Sounds all right so far. Fluctuates rapidly all the time during normal driving, and
Under hard accel it should go high .8-.9v. the entire time the gas pedal is on the floor (max fuel enrichment)
Under deceleration the voltage can drop to zero (decel fuel shutoff)

Rear sensor is used to monitor the performance of the cat, it fluctuates very slowly. Your P0132 code deals with the front O2 sensor , so you can probably ignore the readings from the rear sensor.
HOWEVER:
The 1.3v is high...but it isn't coding.....possible scantool error?



You positive about the codes? Cleared and rechecked now?
P0420 is for the cat.
This is interesting.
So the engine died at this point?
Did it set the same fault code at this time?

If the primary sensor read all zeros at the same time the trims were climbing, then it sounds like it went super lean, starved for fuel...like maybe the fuel pressure dropped, or it quit pumping gasoline?
I'd might take a fuel sample (water in the tank??), and connect a fuel pressure gauge so I can see what's happening while driving around.

Swap out the fuel pump relay?

Odd. IDK yet.

How many miles on this car?

sharp66

I think that there was poor communication with the device yesterday. this morning I logged the trip:

https://mega.co.nz/#!yA1kUJ7B!fvHFBe...rWCe9YVo18t4wg

but I never had the problem (i drove like a grandma, never went above 4k). It would still be nice if someone could look over these and try to see why i would be getting p0132.

The only code that i have gotten since the timing belt change (~200miles) is P0132. All of the other codes listed were left over from before, most likely due to events in the winter.

I will keep logging my drives and hopefully we can figure this out.

ezone

This weird 'mega' site thing wants to open a file in microsoft office, which I don't have.


Will your scanner display freeze frame data from the time the code set?? (when it resets the code) That might help us to understand more about what the computer saw.

sharp66

Try this link:
https://mega.co.nz/#!HF0X3YDL!KeHlnD...MGFCIohV-cV8R4

mega is just a free online storage service, like dropbox, but it is better politically and they give you 50GB for free.

The first file was an excel file, and should open with openoffice, libreoffice, or google docs.

This new file is the same information, but is a csv (comma delimited values) file, so it can be read in any text editor or any spreadsheet program.

So are you saying that i should reset the CEL, and watch for when it turns back on? I am logging every 0.5 seconds, so I should be able to make a note of the time when it turns on.

ezone

Absolutely. Establishing how frequently the fault (code) occurs is a big part of the diagnostic process.
A 'hard fault' that is always present is far easier to deal with and much easier to figure out than a random and intermittent fault.
All I know about the P0132 code right now is it was found in the computers history and you have no real clues when it actually set.

And you have a random stalling issue that may or may not be related, it could be a different problem all its own.

Freeze frame data is a 'snapshot' of several data parameters taken and stored inside the PCM at the time a code sets. I'd like to see this info whenever it does set the code again.

If you have not erased the old codes yet, if the FF data is still stored and retrievable, maybe we can see what the value of the O2 sensor was at that time. (won't help if the FF data was stored for the cat code instead of the sensor code)


You act like everyone should have these programs on their interweb machine. LOL


Ok it opened in a spreadsheet and holypoopthatsalottsnumbers.
It's extremely hard to look at in this form, does your logger allow for graphing or any other logging methods instead? (IDK if I can convert spreadsheet numbers to line graphs, I've never bothered to play with the program.)

Column D, Altitude? What unit of measurement is it using, and what is your altitude or usual atmospheric pressure there? Why does your altitude seem to vary so much, if that's accurate?
If it is reading the BARO, I'd think it should be a lot steadier than what that indicates.


Column E, 'G, calibrated'?? WTF is that? I have no idea.

The rest of the values I think I understand, but there's just too much to filter through. Is there an anomaly or an event area you specifically want to look at? You need to narrow it down a lot or point to a specific spot if you do.

sharp66

I'll look into the freeze frame, and getting you plots to look at. a lot of that data is gps (like the calibrated speed). I think that i had the 2 fuel trim values, the 2 o2 sensors, throttle position, rpms, and some others i can't remember.

The trip home tonight was pretty uneventful, there was a problem when i sat idling for about 3 minutes, i increased the throttle and it went away. The o2 sensors seemed to not fluctuate near as much, and the fuel trims seemed much more active. Again, i'll try to get you some plots of the data.

The CEL was off when i started the car, and turned on about 12 minutes into the trip.

I need to add gas tomorrow, any suggestions? non-ethanol? sea foam?

ezone

What's the new code?
What's the freeze frame data say?

sharp66

The car has thrown P0420 on 2 of the trips, but didn't throw it this morning (all trips are about 40 miles and 45 minutes).

The freeze frame ls:
It did not throw P0132 again, and has not gone into limp mode for the last 5 trips now, which is good, but makes it difficult to diagnose. I am still looking at good ways to visualize the data, but there doesn't really seem to be a good way.

I filled up with 10% ethanol (on accident) yesterday, and it seems to be working fine. I did try running the car harder, and it did not react adversely.

Perhaps it is weather related. If I should replace the cat do you guys have a favorite brand from rockauto? What is the deal with the manifold conversion, what do you put where the cat was? I will probably do the whole exhaust since the previous owner did awesome things like cutting the springs and putting "performance exhaust" on the car.

ezone

Cool you can find it
And it's for the cat code
Right.

The best way to be able to spot bad data is to be very familiar with what good data looks like.

Start reading the data while the situation is good and apparently correct, that way you will have a baseline of sorts to compare against data when it the problem acts up.
I can't get away from it in my area. I'm in the corn belt.
Nobody will know until the problem is actually solved LOL

None. You get what you pay for.....And sometimes you don't even get that.

You want to keep the code away, you don't want the code to return right away?
You have to pass an emissions test to be legal? (where are you located?)
You gonna drive the car more than a year?
You want a factory cat, or a cat that is CARB compliant.

No 49 state cat, too many can't make it out of the warranty period, and nobody warrants labor to replace them.

Converting the exhaust system from LX style (Cast iron manifold with the cat attached to it in one expensive unit) to EX style (tube manifold or header, and the cat located a little further downstream by itself) and relocating the rear O2 sensor (extending the wire harness).

You already have an EX so this is not for you.

Oh jeez... What's there? Is the cat still in place or has it been removed?



HTH

sharp66

I'm in the corn belt as well (eastern iowa), but can usually get non-ethanol fuel.

I think that the previous owner replaced everything after the cat, but not sure. There is a cat, and that's where the 2nd o2 sensor is. I think that the exhaust that he put in was just an ebay special, maybe from the same place as the cut springs.

The CEL doesn't bother me too bad, at least not near as much as the car not working properly. As long as the codes 0132 and 0420 keep popping up it is what is the most suspect.

what do you think of this:
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/more...id=418&jpid=12

it is a CARB one, but walker makes a non-CARB one that is $115 less:
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/more...nid=418&jpid=2

OEM seems to be $800+ which is not doable for me unless it was the only way and guaranteed to fix the issue, since it would make the car pretty expensive for a 2001. I plan to keep it, but if this problem isn't fixable then it might get dumped.

Really i just want to fix this problem, and it seems like i get the vibe from mechanics that i talk to that it could be the cat/sensors, but sometimes it seems like they just hear the code and go from there without actually trying to understand the problem.

What do you think of this guy's video:

he says 2 things that are of interest: that if the second sensor is bouncing around then the cat might be bad, and that if the temperature out of the cat is less than the temperature into the cat, then it is bad.

I haven't taken the temperature, but here is the o2 numbers from my drive yesterday:
https://i.imgur.com/AoqhckX.png

this shows that the second sensor shadows the first sensor, which according to youtube guy means that it is the cat. Is there any way that this would be causing the original problem?

Thank you for your help, by the way.

ezone

Lucky you. Or maybe more like unlucky me.





Ok you need to consider that you may have up to 3 separate problems here:

One-- the cat code and cat.
Two-- the random P0132 code that so far has not returned. This is not caused by a cat problem (should not).
Three-- this thing dies while driving. (?) and is hard to start in the cold (?)

I'd go for the CARB compliant one, it will last far longer.

At work your choices are OEM, or CARB compliant if the customer balks at the OEM price. We do not offer the cheaper choices at all.
If the customer wants cheaper, they can go be pissed at some other shop when it craps far too early.
The cat would only fix the cat code, not the other problems. In fact, I would resolve all the other problems before replacing the cat.

A cat can be ruined in only a few minutes if the car runs bad enough. Even a brand new one. So I would not chance it.

Tell me about it.




Yes on the sensors BUT only if the cat is actually lit and operating. If you watch the sensor activity while the cat is cold, they may mirror each other.

Maybe on the temperatures....It's not any accurate assessment. It's only an indicator that the cat is doing something.

Remember: The computer (PCM) is the judge and jury here, not humans. We cannot evaluate whether or not the cat is good enough to pass the computers programmed testing routines.
We CAN stare at data and guess all day long....and it is fairly easy to spot a completely dead cat.

Even if you had emissions testing there, the tailpipe sniffer test specs are less stringent than the on-board computers' tests of the cat.



HEY! Line graph! I can read it easier now LOL

Was this taken after you had been driving for a while?
The rear sensor pretty much mirrors the front sensor.



This is pretty much spotting a dead cat here, if it was at operating temp when taken.

Your original problem was hard start in frigid temps and poor running at times?

In the first post you said Today: Still going into limp mode.
I don't think the computer is in limp mode at all, the codes don't support the idea. I think the car has a problem with poor/no acceleration at times, which might also be the cause of the stalling.


Here's a theory for you:
Non-working cat.
Likely to be partially or mostly hollow.
Where did the pieces go?
If the cat guts broke apart, they could be sent downstream through the exhaust and may get caught elsewhere and cause an exhaust flow restriction.
The pieces might bounce around and let flow through sometimes, then bounce again and lodge sideways and cause a blockage.

It would explain a LOT of your descriptions if that cat broke apart and there are chunks caught in the rest of the exhaust. (It would not explain all of the complaints yet though)

Go bang on the rest of the exhaust hard with a rubber mallet, listen for noises like rocks or jingly noises inside the cat, pipes, muffler, resonator whatever exhaust it has under it.


You might unbolt the pipes from the rear of the cat and look inside it, see if the substrate is broken or missing.
Then drive it around with open exhaust, just to see if it runs better. It'll be loud for sure, but see if performance improves.

YW. Hope I'm not misleading you too badly LOL

sharp66

Yes, it was a sample taken from the middle of the drive, maybe 15 minutes in. I looked at other parts of the drive and it was the same though where they go up and down together. Can I use this information to say that the sensors are good?

Is there a way that something that we did during the timing belt replacement would have caused P0132? Like the fumes from the hondabond? I'll see if the codes come back.

I will agree a bit here too, since I have witnessed real limp mode during the winter with the TDC sensors misreading. I would be hard pressed to get the car up to 5mph when it acts up right now, and the engine doesn't seem limited to 3k as much as it just is really weak.

I'll get back to you on the other stuff, and will consider the cat to be dead, but something that will be fixed last.

Edit: Had an uneventful morning drive. It does sometimes feel that the exhaust is restricted, but it might be a placebo effect, since we were talking about it.

ezone

.
The computer has to have ran and passed several tests on both O2 sensors before it can run the cat tests.
If the sensors fail for any reason and set codes, testing of the catalytic converter is suspended. (I can rattle off a list of codes that halt cat testing if you want.)

Therefore, the computer believes the sensors are good at this time

The cat failed its tests.

HOWEVER that P0132 says there has been some issue (yet unresolved) related to the front sensor, so we can't say for certain it is 100% good, we only see that it is not failing right now.

Erm, I'll say no way....but I can't tell what sort of work anyone else did. I'm only thinking of how I do the timing belt job.

There is no reason to use Hondabond during a timing belt job, is there? It should be sensor safe anyway....I'll have to look at a tube in a little bit.


Don't have time to reread the entire thread (lunch break and work to get done here), I think fuel pressure and maybe backpressure could be a couple tests that would be good to do.

sharp66

I used some on the creases for the valve cover. People seem to be split 50/50 on if this should be done, I decided to err on the side of caution.

What do you think of me just getting a new muffler and hardware for the stuff downstream of the cat? it would be pretty cheap, I would get a chance to take the downstream stuff apart to check for blockage, and I would be able to hear the radio when I'm going 80.

If there is a chance that this is a lost cause I won't do it, but otherwise it is something pretty high on my list.

ezone

I forgot about that part.....probably because I rarely remove the valve cover, I just pry it up only far enough to get the timing cover out from under it.

At this shop we don't replace valve cover gaskets every time it comes apart....
I suppose that if you get a complete "cat back" system that would eliminate the issue entirely. Unless there is broken substrate remaining inside the cat to cause problems later on.
Evaluate the cat before you bolt it on?

mikey1

it is recommended to use it/high temp silicone at the 4 points where the gasket goes up over the cam, the gasket alone can not properly seal a joint on that angle

sharp66

I'll place the order tonight. keep those fingers crossed.

sharp66

Well, it looks like i won't be able to just replace the muffler...

http://imgur.com/RnZoARy,HaTQzOB,rdG...vx0M,hxqYmDz#0

From the diagram that walker supplies:

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/more...nid=418&jpid=1

it seems like there is a lot that isn't correct. So, the question is now "I should replace it all, right?".

Thank you everyone, especially ezone.

ezone

It's been "moron'd" LOL
Yeah it needs everything now except the header.
Got an exhaust shop nearby? Maybe get a quote?

Have you banged on the pipes and listen for loose stuff inside?



Looks like oil leaks too? Floor/rails look wet.

sharp66

Alright, just banged on it and didn't really hear anything rattling in it close to the cat. What is it that i want the muffler shop to do? If There seems to be a real chance of me needing to replace the cat and i would like to fix the muffler. Doesn't that mean that i will have to replace from the manifold (i think that is factory) back so that it is "normal" parts?

Also, can you tell if this cat is a "real" one or if it came with the rest of the muffler job?

ezone

Bang on the rest of the exhaust, not just the cat.
The idea is to see if this exhaust might be clogged with chunks of the cat that broke apart.

Don't want to ruin a new cat because the engine still runs bad.
Quote a replacement price for the entire system including the cat of your choice.
There is an exhaust shop near me that custom bent an exhaust for my truck and it was relatively cheap, I figured it would be worth a free quote to see how much it cost including a cat of your choice. Options, ya know.

It needs the cat, you want the exhaust, and the exhaust was welded to the back of the cat. It needs everything from the bottom of the header to the rear bumper.

Better make sure the hardware will come loose from the bottom of the header first...

That cat looks original to the car. Someone just welded pipe to the back of it.
Originally there was a triangle shaped flange on the outlet of the cat, and the original pipe was bolted to it.

murphy67

What was the problem with your Civic? Mine has this exact problem. It has been ongoing for a few months. I started noticing when using the cruise control, and thought that was the problem. Since then I replace only the fuel pump, complete assembly, because getting fuel pump pressure kit was almost too much trouble. The lack of MIL codes lead me to think it was fuel related, and the car would almost stall even idling in neutral. During that time goosing the throttle would backfire, indicating lean. After fuel pump car seemed to work great for a week, 400 miles. Now it is worse than ever. I have seen a P0132 code for the first time. This is a symptom in my opinion as I don't recall an o2 sensor failing rich. So on any given day the car may run fine, then run terrible. I am staring to think IAT because a mis calibration could make ECU think car needs rich mix. Thoughts plz, Intermittent problems are the worst. and cost the most. Also as a backstory, this cat was over heated due to failed cam sensor and was running rich for short time. ( RED hot cat )

ezone

I have, many times.

Replace the primary O2 sensor.
Get Denso or NTK whichever the factory installed there.

murphy67

For your readers: O2 fixed this problem. Primary

ezone