Ocoee

engine light started flashing intermittently, error code showed miss of all four. Bought used at 90 k, now 240 k, seemed obvious, bought four new coil packs/ igniters. still getting engine light flash.

2002 civic ex manual

ezone

Can you feel it misfire or run bad?
When does this happen:
Cold?
Hot?
Idle?
Driving steady speed?
Full throttle acceleration?
What?

Post the actual code(s).
Post freeze frame data so I can see what conditions were when the code set.

Erase the codes.
Drive until code sets, re-read code and record freeze frame data. Post this info.

Ocoee

AAAhhhhhhhhhhh, you want real information.

It does not seem to appear with consistency, not for low or high rpm. Does not appear at startup, have to be driving for a while then engine light will flash. Seems to be mostly at steady driving speed. No major feeling of a mis but seems to have a lost a little power.

Have not reset, I don't have a code reader, using auto zone. I will reset with battery disconect and then see what happens.

Hoped I wouldn't have to buy a reader, but that is the obvious way to give you exact condition. AZ code reader showed, miss on cyldr 1, then 2 then 3 then 4

ezone

Duh, I'm a real tech.
The only info I have is what you post.


OK, not on a cold engine but after warmup, maybe 5-10 minutes.....then at steady speed driving?

Does it misfire if you are in neutral and hold the RPM up, like around 2000-2500?
Not absolutely necessary, but handier than tripping to the Zoo every time.
Readers are cheap.
Cheaper than real shop diag here.
The cheapest of the cheap won't give freeze frame data. Spend a little more than that.
One that can give basic live datastream isn't all that much more.
You get what you pay for.

With knowing the FF data, that makes it a lot easier to duplicate the conditions for troubleshooting. Eliminates some guesses.

TPS
RPM
VSS
ECT
MAP
are all important in the FF data, you can drive the car and easily duplicate the same driving conditions as when the code set.
I'd like to know if just one cylinder returns first, or if they all set at the same time. You can't tell that on this car, there is no way of knowing unless you can read codes AS they get set while driving.

Live Data would be handy, you can read some basics while the miss is actually happening. Read coolant temp, EGR position, what the O2 sensor is doing, etc.

I'm gonna tell you to disconnect the EGR valve connector and drive it a day or two, see if the misfire stops happening. Yes it will set codes for EGR, but if it stops the misfire issue then that's a big clue. Plus it has over 200k, it's ripe.
If it doesn't stop the misfires, oh well this was a free shot.

How old are the plugs? What brand and type?
Valve adjustment was last done when?


Tired thoughts.

Ocoee

Thanks for all the info.

Will try your suggestion and post soon. The plugs are fairly new, the shop I went to a while back thought it was a sin that I didn't have ngk plugs, so I changed to one of the ngk. Can't remember which one, but they were about $6 each.

Will all code readers give me live data? That was my hesitation in buying a reader. I looked at the bottom of the line actron, $40, but thought I might need the 9575 ($129) which has live view and freeze frame.

thanks agin.

ezone

I thought I covered that already.

DangerZone (and others that are open on Sunday) caters to a certain market.....They LOVE people that fire the parts cannon.

Handy pic of a parts cannon:



DangerZone caters to people that can't diagnose, their only method or determining if something is good or bad is to replace it.

Their clientele generally have no use for freeze frame data or live data, and it is not in their best interest to otherwise educate them:
"Here's a list of parts that might cause your code. Will that be cash or credit?"
Therefore, they use the cheapest code readers on the planet.

It's really a good business model. Good for the business. They really don't have much interest in fixing your cars, only in selling more parts.

JMHO. YMMV.

You read the box, that's good. Shop around too, they are everywhere these days. All different brands and varying capabilities.




BTW
My first and only thought right there was that the EGR operates mainly under those conditions. Disable it and see if that makes a difference. I'm not really sure though, this issue usually only causes misfire on like 1 or 2 cylinders.
I'll stay tuned for updates.

Ocoee

The mystery deepens.

Reset codes by battery disconnect, then unplugged egr. No blinking. OK, obvious next step, plug egr back in. egr is now plugged in and I can not get the engine light to blink.

Guess I will just wait to see what, if anything, happens.

thanks again

ezone

Leave it unplugged and drive it normally for a few days.
Give it plenty of time and miles to make sure this either did something or not.

Sure would be nice to know which misfire codes it has.....

Ocoee

In addition to the actual misfire code, what would useful "live data" look like? Is it recorded in a live viewer, or do I need to freeze a display and write it down?

I build computers, so looking at data is not an issue. Worked on my cars before the age of computers. Changed alternators, axles, waterpumps, brakes; mechanical things. Just now taking a shot at the computer era.

ezone

Well, that's a tough to explain if you have never had to use it.....

It would be a list of engine sensor inputs and PCM outputs, as seen by the PCM itself, in real time (or close to it, there is a bit of a lag between what happened and seeing it on a display. Update rates vary widely.)


Here's a partial example of what I might get with my HDS (dealer level scanner):





Here's another link, a version of a "Mastertech" scanner, this one is distributed by Bosch, but the one I have was made by Vetronics and was also one of the actual Honda factory scanners up until 2003-4 when it was replaced by a tablet, now replaced by laptops.
http://www.boschdiagnostics.com/test...s/MTS3100.aspx



On YOUR car, the PCM itself doesn't support monitoring of individual cylinder misfire counters so that's out as far as trying to watch misfires in any live data. All you can do is wait for a code to pop up (that's when your light starts flashing for a misfire related DTC), pending or matured......


....unless you can interpret Mode$06 data in a raw generic form, and few scanners actually support that info well enough to be of any value to the tech (most techs can't and won't use this anyway, but some info can be gleaned in certain cases).
This is an example:


Looking at data is one thing.
Being able to interpret and use it is another....you probably already knew that. LOL

Ocoee

Well, the blinking stopped with disconnecting the egr. Also noticed the loss of a low rpm stumble. The stumble appeared so slowly over the last year (or more) that i didn't really notice it. It would happen if I didn't downshift (manual trans) at low speed, just assumed it was lugging.

Almost feel bad about replacing coilpacks. But I know I put 140,000 miles on the old ones and the car had almost 90 k when I bought it. Likely they were original.

Still don't have the actual trouble code. I can get that if you want.

If the next step is egr, wondering about new vs. cleaning. I've read several of the posts on cleaning. Doesn't seem hard, not clear if I need a gasket.

Also wonder about cleaning egr ports. Read several descriptions of cleaning including one where you contributed a great deal of info. Seems like a bit of work. car has 240 k.

ezone

No, I have no idea what I'm doing.


Don't touch it, you won't help anything and will just waste time and resources.

This is exactly what you need to do.
This is probably all you need to do.
Pull the intake out and clean the EGR distribution plate. Look in the intake port corners for carbon buildup too.

Ocoee

I have two links to threads re cleaning procedure. Do these cover what is needed?

https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...-passages.html

https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...303-p0304.html

ezone

I read a little of the first one, and the procedure listed has extra steps I don't do. I don't drain coolant, for one. I don't bleed fuel pressure or disconnect the fuel line, I remove the injectors and rail together as a unit and lay it to the side out of the way.

I thought his one has the better description, toward the end when he actually did the work of pulling the intake.


Read all the available info, and use your best judgement.

Be careful, don't break the plastic manifold. You will break your leg trying to kick your own *** if you do.







I can have it cleaned and back together in well under 2 hours, but I do this for a living and have all the cool stuff to be efficient. I use my own judgement to determine what work is needed to get the job done. What I do doesn't always agree with published procedures.

fsckewe

Both good threads, if I might say so myself.

Roger that on the radiator drain and fuel depressurization. Not required.

When pulling the injectors/rail the Helms manual says to replace the o-rings. I didn't. I inspected them, coated them in oil and reused them. YMMV.

Also, buy yourself a manual. Also, if you aren't too excited about purchasing a scanner and you have a laptop, get one of the OBDII USB scanners from amazon. They come with software that will give live data and freeze frame data.

Post back with any questions OP and I'll try to help if you get stuck on anything.