semvhu

I was driving my 2005 Civic LX home from work Friday when it suddenly just died on the freeway. I pulled over to the side and tried to start it. The engine starts temporarily then stumbles and dies. It does this over and over and will never run for over a couple of seconds. The engine light does not come on, though I do not have a scanner to double check.

After getting a tow truck to drag it home, I talked to a few people, did some research, and did some thought on my own and came to the conclusion it is the fuel pump. I've been suspicious that the pump was having issues for awhile anyway. I replaced the pump assembly tonight via instructions I found on here, then turned the ignition on and off about 6 times to let the pump cycle the gas through the lines. The car still does the exact same thing; it starts for a couple of seconds then stalls out and dies.

Since then, I have looked under the hood for any obvious signs of connectors or hoses disconnected and cannot find anything. I have checked the fuse box and all the fuses are good. I can find nothing wrong anywhere by simple inspection.

It seems it must be a fuel starvation problem to me, but I'm no more than a weekend mechanic wannabe. The only other idea I have at the moment is to test / replace the fuel pump relay. If that doesn't work, my only recourse at this time is to take it to a good mechanic.

Help!

TL;DR

Car died, only starts for a couple of seconds and quits. Wasn't the fuel pump. Can see no obvious signs anywhere. At a loss. FML.


Things I have checked / replaced:

• Fuel pump assembly: completely replaced
• Connectors, wiring, lines under hood: inspections have revealed nothing
• Fuel pump relay: turns pump on properly before cranking; keeps pump on until engine shuts off
• Engine codes: no codes are stored or come up during attempted cranking
• Scanner: all readings appear correct; of course, engine doesn't run long enough to really tell some things such as oxygen sensors and timing
• TPS: throttle position sensor in scanner appears to work properly
• Immobiliser: indicator suggests system is working correctly; valet key does not work either

Things left to check:

• Vacuum leaks: I presume this car has a vacuum system just like most others
• Fuel pressure: even though I have replaced the fuel pump, I have not checked the fuel pressure yet to make sure the entire fuel delivery system is working right
• Spark: perhaps the spark fails shortly after cranking
• Timing: perhaps the belt broke / jumped; seems as if the CPS would throw a code or something
• ??????????????

semvhu

Anyone? Anyone?

Bueller?

flirp

For a laugh I once took the immobiliser chip out of my old Ibiza's key, then tried to start the engine. It would run for a second then conk out. Might be an immobiliser issue?

semvhu

Thanks! I'm about to head to work but I'll check on how to troubleshoot that later.

FYI I just ordered an Equus 3130 OBD II scanner from Amazon. One of those should come in handy in the future no matter the outcome of this problem.

dahonam

@Semvhu, I hope you don't mind if i piggy-back on your thread. I am having the same exact issue as your and I thought i'd throw in my 2 cents. I start the car, it stutters and dies a second or two later. No CEL or codes. My friend told me to clean my throttle body as it might be sticking, did that and no work. Checked spark in all 4 cylinders and is present. I'm not sure about honda immobolizers, but on my friends audi it would start and die, but no stutter... How much did you pay for your fuel pump?

semvhu

No problem at all, dahonam. As for the fuel pump, I got it at Autozone for $222.xx + tax; I went ahead and got the entire assembly, which, as I understand it, contains the fuel pump, filter / strainer, regulator, et. al. They were as cheap as anyone else locally. Majestic Honda had it cheaper, but it would have been almost as much after S&H.

If you figure out your problem, I would certainly welcome an update here just in case we're having the same problem. Good luck!

semvhu

Other thoughts as to what could be the problem:

• MAP sensor
• PCV
• IAC valve
• Stopped up fuel line

It would seem as though the first three would / could cause the check engine light to come on, though. Thoughts?

semvhu

I was just looking through the manual and came across this:

If memory serves, the green indicator did blink, but perhaps it was because of this:

I do not recall exactly which case it was, but I'll check when I get home.


EDIT:

Scratch that. It wasn't the immobiliser. I called my wife and asked her to crank it with the valet key. It does exactly the same thing and the immobiliser indicator suggests it's working properly

semvhu

I borrowed a scanner from a friend. Everything looked fine that can look fine without the engine running: MAP, TPS, etc. No codes were stored or came up during an attempted crank.

I talked to my father some more about it. He suggested it may be possible that the timing belt jumped or broke and the CPS still wouldn't show a problem. Thoughts? How can you make sure the timing belt is still lined up correctly without tearing into it?

semvhu

I ended up pulling the throttle body to check out the IACV. The valve and TB are both dirty and in need of cleaning, but I don't think it's so bad on either of them to cause the problems I'm having. Even if the IACV wasn't working at all, I don't see how it could be the problem.

I don't have any carb cleaner. I'll pick up some tomorrow, clean the TB and IACV, put it all back together, and see how it does from there. I don't predict any changes, but who knows. If the problem persists, I'll move to checking the fuel pressure and go from there.

semvhu

I got it towed to a local car repair shop that specializes in imports. The mechanic called and said it could be the immobilizer. According to his sources at a Honda dealership, sometimes the immobilizer circuit can fail without giving a proper indication; i.e. the green immobilizer indicator will flash as if nothing is wrong.

He is presently pursuing this route and will let me know what he finds.

civicguy35

Exact same thing is happening to my 03 Civic.
I'm going to take a look at the Ignition switch when i get home and if it isn't that the next to check is the timing belt...
Thoughts are it could have slipped a couple teeth or i read on another forum that the spring fell out of one guys tensioner and it had fallen down and messed with the Crank Position sensor...
Let me know if your mechanic finds the problem though, I'm taking stabs in the dark at this point...
I'll let you know if i fix mine.

semvhu

I'll let you know what he finds. Since then, they have looked at the fuel pressure, fuel pump relay, and ECM. The latest was suspicion of a bad ECM. He told me to call back tomorrow morning to see where he's at. At this point, I think he's starting to take stabs in the dark as well.

civicguy35

does anyone think this ignition switch looks bad??

civicguy35

Hear anything from your mechanic?
I have found my problem... Ignition switch didin't look that bad to me, so i pulled off the top timing cover and found that the timing belt was scraped down to about a 1/4" wide.
Looks like the tensioner came loose and was out too far wich was allowing the belt to rub against the cover and had been slowly rubbing it away to nothing.
However, what was left was still pretty tight so i have yet to determine if it has actually jumped a couple teeth or if all the threads from the worn down belt were just messing with the Crankshaft Position Sensor...
So i'm putting a new timing belt, tensioner and Sensor on when i get home today.

If your guy hasn't found the problem yet get him to check your timing maybe???

semvhu

Thanks for the suggestion, civicguy, but I don't think that's going to be the problem. The mechanic I took it to, who is the local Honda expert with 20+ years of experience, has given up on it and recommends taking it to a dealer to get fixed. I don't know yet what all he has tried, but I know in various discussions he mentioned fuel pressure, ignition, timing, ECM, immobiliser, etc. I don't know that I'll take it to a dealer just yet, but perhaps I'll try another not so local expert in Hondas.

If nothing works, maybe i'll just donate the POS.

Matt_75

I don't know which relays you've replaced, but I would replace the relays listed in the link below, specifically 13, 14 and 11.

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...IT+%28CABIN%29

If that doesn't work, I may very well be an ECM issue.

Please let us know your results.

semvhu

I just got a call from the shop that has the car now (new place as the first place was unable to fix the problem). He said there are two problems: the wrong timing belt was used when I had the timing belt replaced (he said a belt for the VTEC motor was used), and the wiring for the crank position sensor is bad. I asked him if the timing was off enough to damage the engine and he said it wasn't. He's going to fix both problems and said the car should be like new after that.

I hope he's right.

semvhu

I called back, curious about the belt. I had ordered that belt myself from Majestic Honda when I needed to have it changed. I checked online and hondaautomotiveparts.com says the part number is 104RU22, which is what I ordered from MH and is the number on the current belt. The shop says it should be part number 25312, which doesn't show up as a number on Honda Automotive Parts at all.

So, can anyone tell me why it shows up online that way or how I am screwing up looking up the part number?

They also said the plugs were black from running too rich and they're going to replace them; if I'd at least pulled a plug to look at it, I'd have at least realized it was running rich.

The guy at the shop said it will probably be ready to be picked up this evening.

Matt_75

I don't know what the deal is with your mechanic, but the part number for a Honda timing belt for a 2001-2005 civic, any flavor, is the one you stated (14400-PMM-A02/104RU22).

It sounds kind of strange that the CPS wiring is culprit and didn't throw a code as well as the spark plugs being black and running rich and you didn't throw an O2 sensor code or any code for that matter.

Let us know your results.

semvhu

Regarding the timing belt, the mechanic stated that he commonly sees problems with the tightness of the timing belts on these engines. He said they will not stay tight enough with the factory belt so he uses a slightly smaller belt. He stated that the factory belt's looseness leaves too much slop in the cam and the timing is never quite right.

Regarding the crank position sensor, the connector was corroded and he cleaned it up. That's something I'll keep an eye on myself regularly from now on.

Preliminary results are that the car runs like a scalded dog. It's never run this well to my recollection, and I didn't realize how poorly it was running until driving it after they fixed it. Low RPM torque is much stronger, making it much easier to start off in first gear and shift into higher gears while driving it easy. Throttle response is much better and it takes hills much easier than it used to. Driving at 80 mph down the interstate was a bit of a chore before, but now it's begging me to take on Corvettes. Okay, so perhaps that's an overstatement.

Whether you agree with his technique of using a smaller timing belt than stock is a matter of argument, I suppose. Normally I would have thrown up a red flag just reading about something like that, but at the moment the results for now tell me he knows what he's doing.

Levi22

to semvhu, my car has had the same condition as yours twice. This time is on my wallet and jjmastertech in honda.tech.com nailed to the bone. This is what he recomends and I pray it works for you and solve your troubleshooting and you end with an excellent ride after this.
Most likely, your car has jumped timing. Just went through this with a 2004 Civic 1.7l.
It is easy to check:
1. Unplug the crank sensor.
2. Start the engine.
If it runs without shutting off, your engine timing has jumped.

Explanation: The engine has 2 timing sensors; the cam sensor and the crank sensor. It uses the cam sensor to start the engine since this one can tell the engine which cylinder is in position for starting. Once started, it uses both sensors to run the engine. If the signals are off, it stalls to protect the motor (or try anyway). It can actually run on just the cam sensor so if the crank sensor fails, the car won't die.

If you have a "no-start" condition, it probably is not the crank sensor since it doesn't use this one to start

Levi22

HI, just wonder so far how good was the procedure with the smaller timing belt change, and how your car is doing. I need to do the same and dont know if I should use the shorter belt or not. Do you have any opinion? Thanks

seanduque

semvhu were you able to find out what the issue was?
I'm having the exact same problem with my 2002 Honda Civic Lx sedan. I was on the freeway last night and the car died. I'm able to start the car but it dies after running for about half a second. I changed the timing belt about 2 weeks ago and the car has been running fine since. I'm not really sure what the issue is.

civicguy35

If you just changed your timing belt i'd be extremely suspicious that it jumped a tooth or two since you changed it. Without typing my whole story again that's what happened to me. I changed the belt and it ran fine for months, then i was pulling into my driving way and poof. It stalled and wouldn't run for more than a second. It had jumped a few teeth.

cvguy

That is definitely not a happy thing Hopefully not enough movement to cause engine damage? Were you able to figure out for certain what caused it to jump? The four that come to mind are a bad belt, tensioner not torqued enough, missing woodruff key, or crank bolt not tight enough. Was it one of those? Something else?

civicguy35

Yah it really is a terribly frustrating part to change. I've got it down to a science now but it makes me ill to think about doing it again.

My problem was simple but impossible to figure out until i researched the hell out of it. If you recall there is a strange looking slotted washer that is behind the crankshaft pulley. Well it also only goes on one way and since i had it flipped over (it's slightly concave) the wrong way it made the crank shaft pulley and timing belt sit ever so slightly out of alignment with the other pulleys. Well this caused it to rub and gradually wear down till it was about a quarter of an inch wide, which obviously made it weaker until the engine jumped a few teeth and wouldn't run anymore.

Side story is that i couldn't figure this out for a long time. 2 days of taking it apart and putting it back together, just to start it and hear that it was still rubbing. I think i did it 4 times before i finally found this washer... Nearly in tears from basically going through an panic attack from frustration.

Yours likely isn't worn out but maybe loose. Did you change the tensioner pulley? You really should do the tensioner pulley and water pump while you're in there. It's more money but its a horrific job so you wouldn't want to do it again because of a seized water pump...
I feel for you man. I've been there.

seanduque

I changed my belt tensioner, water pump, crank shaft seal, and cam shaft seal. Say the timing belt did skip a tooth/tooths, how would you know if the valves and/or pistons got damaged?

civicguy35

I'm pretty sure you'd hear it. You're probably fine. Mine weren't damaged at all. It has to be pretty much 90 degrees out to interfere with the valves.

cvguy

Brutal experience there, Civicguy35 - sounds like the only damage was shortening your life expectancy by a few years I also changed the crank seal on mine, and was fortunate that the DIYs I was looking at made a point of describing the need to get that part back in the right way. I can't imagine having to do this job over once, much less 4 times
Hope you're not heading down the re-do road, Sean, but best of luck if you wind up there.