nrasu

Has anyone had this problem...I have a new 2017 Hatchback that when in gear (parked breaks not pulled) it rolls back little by little. The dealearship told me that this is OK...I have an old BMW 2000 that does not do that.. I had a 2012 Civic that did not do that...They (the dealer) told me that they tested another car (which I know they are lying because they don't have another one in their lot) and does the same thing. They are refusing to fix it and their only answer is Use Your Break...which I don't think its acceptable.

ezone

OOOooh manual trans (oops lol)

Ya it's normal. If you leave it in gear, the only resistance coming from the engine is its compression and piston ring drag, and that can be slowly overcome...even by hand.

Normal. Not broken, so no repair possible.
Set the parking brake, that's surely mentioned in the owners manual.

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

I get the idea, it is 6 speed manual.... ?

If so what gear is it left in ?

nrasu

Then why non of my other manual cars are doing it????

nrasu

What's the idea???? I always leave it in 1st and it ends up in the middle of the road.. none of my other cars are doing it....

ezone

Do you really want a technical explanation---that's probably going to include checking some things for yourself, or a smartass answer?

And on the 6th day God invented the parking brake and behold, it was very good.


P. 536 of the (USA) owners manual talks about what to do when you park the car, and how to do it. The parking brake is mentioned there more than once.... for a reason.



You could put a brick behind a tire or two, that might stop it from rolling.

nrasu

It looks like you work at Honda...that its your solution...am I supposed to bring a brick with me when I go shopping...I have never seen a car roll back when in gear.... maybe you are not a mechanic...Honda's solution is "Pull the Break" which is simply BS... They don't want to fix it... I am just asking people with the same car if they have the same problem...because they told me that all cars do the same thing and I really don't belive them...

mcnoople

This thread makes me laugh a lot. Poster told to use parking brake. Poster declares I don't need a parking brake. Poster declares car rolls downhill. Poster told to use parking brake again. Poster declares I don't need a parking brake. Poster declares car rolls downhill. Poster told to use parking brake again. Poster declares I don't need a parking brake. Poster declares car rolls downhill. Poster told to use parking brake again. Poster declares I don't need a parking brake. Poster declares car rolls downhill. Poster told to use parking brake again. Poster declares I don't need a parking brake. Poster declares car rolls downhill. Poster told to use parking brake again. Poster declares I don't need a parking brake. Poster declares car rolls downhill. Poster told to use parking brake again. Poster declares I don't need a parking brake. Poster declares car rolls downhill. Poster told to use parking brake again. Poster declares I don't need a parking brake. Poster declares car rolls downhill. Poster told to use parking brake again. Poster declares I don't need a parking brake. Poster declares car rolls downhill. Poster told to use parking brake again. Poster declares I don't need a parking brake. Poster declares car rolls downhill. Poster told to use parking brake again. Poster declares I don't need a parking brake. Poster declares car rolls downhill. Poster told to use parking brake again. Poster declares I don't need a parking brake. Poster declares car rolls downhill. Poster told to use parking brake again. Poster declares I don't need a parking brake. Poster declares car rolls downhill. Poster told to use parking brake again. Poster declares I don't need a parking brake. Poster declares car rolls downhill. Poster told to use parking brake again..............

On a more helpful note. If the car is going to roll backwards due to the incline you have parked upon don't put the transmission in first gear, put the transmission in reverse. When your car rolls backwards in a forward gear the engine is being rotated in the opposite direction of its normal operation. It can cause issues to do this to some engines. Also they don't have as much compression rotating backwards and engine compression is the only thing that somewhat prevent a manual trans from rolling in gear without the parking brake set. Little engine equals low resistance to rotation.

The easy answer=use the parking brake. Is it really that hard to pull up on the button?

ezone

If using a finger to operate the electric parking brake button is too difficult, then use of a brick might be appropriate. You could even tie some rope to it if you want.



It is not likely to roll away when parked on perfectly flat ground.
However, whenever you park on an incline of any sort, it CAN roll if you don't set the parking brake.

No, I clean toilets at a dealership. Sometimes I fill them as well.

nrasu

JESUS... are you normaly this stupid...the ****ing car rolls back you idiot...Honda already called me back to settle...but I would rather go to court because I have 3 friends plus the person that sold me the car and it does not roll back...so **** them..I will see them in court.. all I asked is if anyone has experincened this... whis no-one has..so go **** yourself

ezone

nrasu

R U that stupid...a car in gear its not supposed to move... I have a 2012 Civic... a 2000 BMW they do not move when in gear.... you probably work for Honda and that's why you are commenting thins way...what happens if the hand brake breaks..and the car kills someone... The car is brand new..I've had over 10 manual cars and non of them did this.. I have 3 friends and the sales person with the same care and it does not do that.. They are just playing stupid hoping that I would go away...well I am not...I am taking them to court... They told me that they have the same problem with the same car but they don't even have another car like that on their lot...they only have one Civic manual..but its not a Turbo one.. that they say it has the same problem... that is not the same car... they can at least test my sellers car and see that it does not have the same problem... I have also told them that I have a mechanic that could fix the car but they are not willing to pay for it.. SO **** HONDA...the last one I will ever buy...I don't undersdent why they are so ignorant since the dealer will get paid anyways...I guess I will let the judge dicide what is write and what is wrong....Sorry about spelling

ezone

No, you don't.

nrasu

Yes I do

mcnoople

Snowflake you are going to lose in court. Have fun on legal fees. I have also owned cars with manual transmissions. Some had parking brakes that did not work. I learned to NOT park on hills with those cars. They all rolled in gear without the parking brake set. The MT accord my mother drives daily rolls in gear without the parking brake. I have had to tell her countless times to use reverse if the car is going to roll backwards.

Honda hasn't offered to settle. They will buy the car back under lemon law just to get your grumpy whiny azz out of their product and into a nice sh1tbox GM product. I don't work for honda, but I do work on hondas. I had a coworker a few years ago that drove a stick shift accord. He parked next to me on the same small hill in the parking lot. Around 11 am we noticed his car had rolled backward 20 feet out into a driving lane. His parking brake had failed and gravity worked normal that day.

If you need his number I know a few mechanics that can "fix" your car so that it doesn't roll when turned off. They will install an automatic trans for several thousand dollars.

Just a guess, but I am thinking that you aren't going to stay around on this forum since no one is willing to tell you that you are right and special and deserve the law of physics to work how you want instead of how they do for the rest of us. Welcome to the forum.

nrasu

I actually took your advice and put in in Reverse...and it does not move anymore... however I am still taking Honda to court (I can afford it)... I don't need an automatic transmission...can't drive them..I have 2 feet...and need to use them.. They however need to fix the car... Like I said I have 3 other workers and the sales person who have the same care...and they don't roll back when in first... there is something wrong with the car... and since they refuse to fix it while under warranty I have no choice but to take them to court...

nrasu

I took some of your advices and put the car in second...third...forth...fifth...sixth..reverse... and it does not roll back.. I took the car to a Non-Honda dealer and they laughed at me when I told them that Honda's fix was to pull the break...they just don't want to fix it..I told Honda that I have a 2000 BMW that the Hand break doesn't even work..and they told me not to compare apples with pears.. but they tested a Honda Civic (Not a Hatch Bach Turbo like mine.. engines totally different)...also their sales man (the one that sold me the car) has the same care and it does not have this problem... This is my 5th Honda...but I will never buy another one again...Someone said to put an automatic transmission and problem solved...How the **** do you drive an automatic transmission...I'm European...we don't drive Automatic...

teders

let me get this straight. You are in gear, I assume the clutch is in otherwise the engine would stall, and the car is going backwards. This is a normal thing that manual cars do when in gear with the clutch in...

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

^^^ When parked.

saylav

just got a 2017 civic. does the same thing regardless of the gear it is in.

never had this issue with any other manual car I've driven.

took it to the shop, they tested several civics, all rolled back. this is not normal nor acceptable. safety issue as parking brakes do fail. in fact the user manual even has a section on it and says to put the car in 1st or reverse to stop it from moving.

waiting on honda for resolution. Interested to hear what was offered.

by the way, love driving the car. just wish it would stay where i parked it as i sometimes i forget to engage the parking brake.

ezone

I found the problem !

teders

I feel like this is an elaborate troll post at this point. If you are in any gear, the shifter is not in neutral, and the clutch is in yes the car will roll backwards. If the clutch is not in, the car stalls. This is how it works.

Are you talking about the engine off and you are in gear and it rolls backwards?

saylav

Yes, car in gear, turned off, key in hand, heading into my house. The car is parked, but in a rush and forget the parking brake (I am human after all). Get a call from the neighbour an hour later that the car is moving. The car had moved 5-10 feet. Not a constant roll, it jerks back every minute or so. The driveway has a incline, nothing crazy. Parked a 2005 ford there with no hand brake (it was broken for a period of time) without a problem.

While using the parking brake stops the car from moving, it does not address the problem.

Parking brakes can and do fail. the manual addresses this. When the car is parked and in gear, it isn't suppose to move.

From a google search, it appears that there is a requirement (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 114, Theft Protection and Rollaway Prevention) that a car in 'park' on an incline without the parking brake on shouldn't move.

Reality is that drivers forget to do lots of things they are suppose to do like:
don't check their blind spots,
turn on their lights at night,
look behind them when backing up etc.
That is why car makers put in systems that address these human flaws to make the cars safer.

My understandng is that when parking your car there are two ways to stop it from moving, the parking brake and the transmission. with the 2017 civic MT, it appears that one doesn't work very well.

Now I'm no car expert by any stretch, but there appears to be an issue here.

mcnoople

There is a reason it states to set the parking brake when parking a manual transmission car. People can state as often and as loudly as they want about how they never needed to do this before. That doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that a previous car had a broken parking brake and stayed in place. It doesn't matter what a BMW (OPs contention) did or did not do. You park a car with a manual trans you spend the extra 5 seconds to pull the handle or lift the button on the electric brake cars.

Now to look at the complaint from a technical standpoint. You have a car with a manual trans and 4 cylinders. The only thing that prevents a manual trans car from rolling with the brake released is the internal friction of the engine and the cylinder compression. Now with the car being a 4 cylinder 4 stroke engine there will only be 1 cylinder on compression at any given time and they are spaced apart by 180 degrees of crankshaft rotation. What this means is that once the engine has made it past the point of maximum cylinder pressure it has 90 degrees of rotation before the next compression stoke starts. This is enough inertia to make it pretty far into the next compression stroke. Now the vehicle weight will sit there loaded against the pressure in the cylinder. Guess what, cylinder compression rings are designed to hold pressure for milliseconds not minutes, they WILL bleed off pressure eventually. This is FACT, this is NORMAL.

Now to get into potential reasons for "my other car never did this." Maybe your other car had more rolling resistance. Maybe your other car has much different gearing which gives more mechanical advantage for the car remaining stationary. Maybe your other car has more cylinder volume per cylinder. Maybe your other car has more cylinders and therefore less degrees of separation between compression strokes. Maybe gravity was lighter when you owned your other car. Maybe your other car had a higher static compression.

So I spent a whopping 2 minutes to pull up the PDF of the civic owners manual. Page 98 in the 2017 owners manuals states to "Apply the parking brake as you're getting ready to step out of the vehicle once your drive is complete." Sounds clear and easy to me. Honda says to set the parking brake, forum posters say they don't set the brake and the car rolls. If only Honda had included a warning in the book about the need to set the parking brake.

I have never had any of my manual trans car roll on me. This includes parking on hills. Why? I understand how it works and how to prevent the car from rolling. Every post on the forum took much more time to type than the time required to set a parking brake.

saylav

Agreed, in the normal course of operation, engage the parking brake and the car will stay put.

My concern is when it is not normal course of operation, e.g. when the parking brake is not working properly. (and over the course of 10-15 years I own the car this might happen)

To quote the manual under the Handlng the Unexpected section:
If the brake system indicator comes on.....

"Preventing the vehicle from moving.
Manual transmission models
Move the shift lever to 1 or R"

This does not work, the car will move. There is a disconnect between the manual and the performance.

the other aspect that has me thinking there is an issue is the staff (techs and sales staff) at the honda dealership. they were shocked to see the car move. Their thoughts were that this is not normal.

I'll have to wait to see what honda's take on it is.

ezone

There is "PARK" on a manual transmission? Nope.



I'm pretty sure it does.

No.
Many of the "systems" are in cars for the same reason a hair dryer has to come with warnings such as "do not use in bathtub"

If the parking brake fails after the warranty period is over, it's up to you to maintain and repair your car.



You again ignored the part about setting the parking brake.


My hope is they require prospective manual transmission buyers to pass a rudimentary class dealing with mechanical principles and laws of physics before being allowed to purchase the car.

saylav

I agree one should use the parking brake.

The section of the manual I was quoting related to when the parking brake is inoperative. So setting the parking brake is not on option.

ezone

You act like it's already broken, and you expect it to be broken all the time.

You've already crashed the plane in your mind, before you even bought the ticket. (It's okay, I don't like flying all that much either)

Do you have a Sedan, Coupe, or Hatchback model? (each owners manual is a little different....I picked Sedan at random)
And which page did you find this on?

Yes I did read the section on 'handling the unexpected', but you need to read the section labeled "Parking Your Vehicle" again:


Quoting page 498 in the 2017 Civic Sedan owners manual:

"In extremely cold temperatures, the parking brake may freeze
up if applied. If such temperatures are expected, do not apply
the parking brake but, if parking on a slope, either turn the
front wheels so they will contact the curb if the vehicle
rolls down the slope or block the wheels to keep the
vehicle from moving. If you do not take either precaution,
the vehicle may roll unexpectedly, leading to a crash."

Barring the part about extreme cold, these are explicit instructions for dealing with a situation where the parking brake cannot be used. I think the above quote covers necessary steps you (and the OP of this thread) have conveniently ignored for the sake of argument.....along with several other pages in the manual telling you to use the parking brake (whenever it's not broken).

nrasu

In response to the person that sent me a private message and is having the same problem....At least Honda is looking at your car... They told me that all cars have the same problem...but I have 3 friends with the same car that it does not have the problem... I have 2 Hondas at home...had 3 in the past.. but I will never buy another one again..not becacuse they are not good...but Service sucks... When I told them that my 2000 BMW does not roll back.. they told me not to compare apples with pears...and told me to go and show me identical car that does the same think....when I got there they looked for an hour for a Civic (Turbo), did not have one and they they only had one other Civic (non-Turbo) in the whole lot...and I said...what happed with apples and pears... you have show me an identical car not a different one.. Like I said...I will never buy a HONDA in my life... just the other day the car ended up in the middle of the street again...they tell me to pull the breaks... HONDA you ****ing idiots...this is my 10's manual car and I never had to pull the ****ing break...I don't even have a hand break on my 17 year old BMW and it never rolls back.. Breaks fail...I should not have to pull my hand break when the car is in Gear...My first car was a DACIA...1977 and even that one did not need the breaks pulled

mcnoople

So you know you have an issue with your car rolling. You have known that it will roll when you park it without setting the parking brake for months. And yet it still rolls when you leave it sitting there without the brake set and you have the audacity to call Honda "idiots." So are you Mr. Kettle or are you Mr. Pot?


My wife's grandmother tells a story about when she learned to drive and got her drivers license. This was around 1953 or so. She says that if she had taken the driving portion of the the drivers test in an automatic trans car that she would have had a restriction on her license that only allowed her to drive automatic transmission cars. So yes, in the early days of automatic transmissions it was known that a manual transmission car required more thought than an automatic. And if someone from that era was able to read the posts in this thread that would start laughing and tell people to use the parking brake.