Mig21

Hi all

My mom got a new civic. I noticed in the manual it says that this one likes 0w20. And she got the first (free) oil change done at the dealer, they put in according to the invoice:

1x PK0W20 SYN OIL
5xHO021-ONBLK 0W20

Which I don't understand. What's the 1x synthetic? Was it mixed with traditional oil? and why 5x? There's no way this car takes 5 liters of oil, let alone 6.

Anyway, I'm the one doing oil changes when they're not free. And I have a large supply of 5w20 which I bought for a very good price. Also 0w20 is very difficult to find.

Is there any particular reason to use 0w20 instead of 5w20? I live in Toronto and it gets cold here in the winter but it's not Montreal or Calgary where -30 degrees (celsius) is not unusual.

Thanks in advance.

mcnoople

I wouldn't worry about what the dealership had written on the invoice. If you trust the person doing the oil change to touch your car you should also trust them to know their job good enough to put in the right oil. We have issues frequently with parts typing in the wrong oil type.

The capacity? All oil changes that hold less than 5 quarts are still billed for 5 quarts. Any time you see a listing for an oil change it will read something like this "$29.99 oil change up to 5 qts non synthetic oil." On vehicles that hold more than 5 they get charged for the extra oil, but you don't get a discount on cars that hold less generally. I suspect your civic holds 4.0 quarts of oil at an oil changes, but I don't recall for certain if both available engines do hold 4.0 exactly.

Drawbacks to not using 0w20? Fuel economy decreases. Do you know for absolute certain that the 5w20 meets all honda specs completely? Having your oil meet the specs is especially important if your oil change interval is being calculated by the maintenance minder system. It assumes you are using quality oil, if you use a very poor quality oil you risk engine damage and a higher potential for sludge buildup.

I am pretty sure honda includes an extreme cold oil recommendation in the owners manual, but I could be wrong.

Personally in mine I run Mobil 1. I go to the local walmart and buy a 5 quart jug for $22 and then don't worry about it again for many miles.

ezone

If you want to question the bill, you need to ask the place that did it.
Use that in something else, give it away, put it in the lawnmower.
It's real easy to find around here.
Walmart and every auto parts store carries something in the 0w20 flavor.

Because it says so on the cap, in the books, and the warranty coverage may be affected if it is ever called into question.
You want to screw up your mothers new car that's worth a bunch of money?




I'm not smarter than the engineers who designed the engines and decided to use 0w20. I use 0w20 in my 12 Civic that calls for it....

I also use 0w20 in the 07 Fit and 05 CRV that don't call for it on the cap.

mac25

Just to answer the capacity question

The L15b7 takes 3.7qt or 3.5L of oil.

The K20c2 Takes 4.4qt or 4.2L




there is some documentation that states that within multiple oil brands the protective capability of the oil was reduced with the lower viscosity oils. BUT they may still be able to fully protect the engine, even if a higher viscosity oil has a greater ability.

I believe the ranking was

Best protection to lowest
5w30, 5w40
10w30
5w20
0w20

...I don't know why 10w30 was bellow 5w30 though.

ezone

mac25
0w16 oil is here now too. Expect to see it used more in the next few years.
Oils with even lower numbers are coming.

Mig21

I like to understand what I'm doing rather than just doing what I'm told. With every car I ever owned the oil grade you should use depends on where you live and how you drive.

But 0w20 doesn't show up in those charts, so I was hoping someone knows what was the reason they made it the default.

mcnoople

Fuel economy. Thinner oil takes less HP to pump than thicker oil especially in colder conditions.

mac25

Ezone, they should just cut to the chase and run straight zero weight =D.

ezone

Charts? What charts? I haven't seen a temp range oil chart in years.

The inside of an engine will be hotter than any ambient temperature on Earth, so not sure why oil would need to be different based on if your town is 30* or 90*F.

0w20 will flow very well at the lowest temperatures you will ever encounter...providing the best low temperature lubrication protection, fastest pressure buildup, best splash effect lube, and faster cranking speed at very low temps, and it will protect just fine at the 200*+F that the inside of your engine will see every time it is warmed up.

Lubrication technology has improved exponentially over the last 2-3 decades.
25 years ago if someone ran an engine 20,000 miles without changing the oil you might pull a drain plug and get molasses sludge trying to slowly GLOOP out as a semi-solid, but any of the better oil these days may go the same 20k miles and only look black, no sludge.

Also, all 0w oils are considered semi-synthetic or better.

Mig21

Oh, interesting! Yeah the last car I bought was in 2011 which I guess is a long time ago now

Does that mean the temperature chart is an obsolete concept now and these days the oil you use doesn't vary with the environmental conditions? Is that true for all new cars or just Civics?

ezone

IMO pretty much, and it really hasn't been necessary in decades for most cars in most situations.

Like I said earlier, the oil needs to be thin enough to flow well in extreme cold, and no matter what it will get to at least 200*F after the engine warms up no matter what the temperature is outside.

Oil technology has improved greatly over the years. Fluids in general, same way.

What your parents and grandparents learned may no longer be true or necessary.

Application engineered fluids are the norm these days.
If you want to change the fluid in your CVT transmission, you better get it straight from the dealership and it better be the correct fluid (some green employees surely don't know all of the differences)...You aren't going to find this fluid at Canadian Tire or Metro or Wrench Monkey yet, may not for several years (if you can't find 0w20 easily now that is has been over 15 yours since introduction and many manufacturers specify it, they will never carry this special Honda only cvt fluid).

Coolant? No longer changed at 2 year intervals. In the US the first coolant replacement is up to 10 years or 100k-120k miles (depending on year and model).


I pretty much deal with just Hondas.

0w20 is approved by Honda for most of their cars going back to the early 2000s. See this chart, and note there is no temperature climate or region relation:






EDIT: brain fart, wrong thread...you aren't the one saying the radio did weird things. DO check with your dealership, see if there is a brand new recall that needs done to the car though. US cars get a software update for the electric parking brake/VSA system.

mac25

The multi oil by temperature system is not for old cars but cheap old oil, which was run in old cars.

Some manufacturers would list a thicker oil for hot conditions, because it offered more protection. and a thin oil in the winter because the thick oil would become too thick to start the engine if no block heater was used to keep the oil above -15c.

today however, cars newer than 2000, usually only list one oil for operation. They may list alternatives if the desired oil is not available where you live though.

Example
"Oil application:

5w20, 5w30, 10w30.
5w30 can be run if 5w20 is not available, but 5w20 is preferred.
10w30 may be run if 5w20 is not available above -15c, but 5w20 is preferred."

or in the case of 06-2010 civics

"0w20, 5w20. 5w20 can be run if 0w20 is not available, but 0w20 is preferred."

or newer Toyotas
"5w20 maybe run but 0w20 must be used the next service, 0w20 is preferred.

Mig21

Cool, thanks guys! I guess I'll try to use up my supply of 5w20 on the two older cars I have and look for a good 0w20 deal. It's 3 times more expensive at regular stores here in Toronto, maybe I'll find it cheaper in the states, I'm sure I'll travel there this year.

I don't understand how they do 60$ oil changes. Even if there's only 10$ of labour involved, where do they get such cheap oil? And where do I get some? Actually I never asked what Honda branded oil costs, maybe it's cheaper than I expect.

ezone

Walmart sells some 5 quart jugs of Mobil1 0w20 for about the same price as Mobil1 5w20.


Your dealer will charge whatever they think they can get away with.
Most seem to charge a premium for 0w20 in all flavors, even though the actual cost is not all that different from 5w20 (unsure of the actual differences, and in Canada it may be completely different from US).

$10 for labor seems cheap.....but most aren't making a killing on oil changes, around here it's usually priced as a 'break even' service.

mac25

You won't be able to find oil as cheap as a dealer or oil shop because they buy in bulk and get middle man pricing.

Your price: 0w20 $10.99/L x5 bottles + filter $5 = $59.95 (plus time and tools)

Lube shop (since I work at one): $5.76/L + filter $2.45 + eco fee $1.00 = $32.25 but they bill you at $86.99 + $2.99 to $3.99 eco fee.

Dealerships in my area are up to half as cheap. But they sold you a few thousand dollar vehicle and factored discounted oil changes into the price. They also use Oil changes as a "loss leader" to get people in the door ans inspect the car for other items that should be fixed... for a price of course.




Each have their advantages.

-If you have the tools and don't mind getting a bit dirty go for the DIY oil change to save money.

-If you want to pay more but have your car back within 20minutes ready to drive then use the lube shop.

-If you want to save money but don't mind leaving your car at a dealership for a while use the dealer.

ezone

*cough*Walmart*cough*

Mig21

Well, sounds like I won't be saving much money with oil changes on this car But I like doing it myself. Not only am I sure it was done properly, but I get a chance to go under the car and spot any upcoming problems. And do other regular maintenance that a quick shop will skip or the dealer will overcharge for

Also for me having to drive somewhere and leave the car (even for a half an hour) is actually more work than doing it myself, assuming I have oil and filters stocked up. An american Walmart is going to be the source for me

Stock 99

I haven't found that to be the case in Canada. More often than not auto part stores have the cheapest price on oil here (NAPA, Lordco) don't ask me why.

ezone

Keep store receipts and accurate records of your DIY services.
The Mobil1 0w20 with the green label should mention Honda right on the front.