Why do D17ís perform so poorly? - Honda Civic Forum



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Old 01-04-2018   #1  
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Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

I donít understand why the D17A2 performs so poorly compared to older D16ís. Can you help me understand? They have a similar compression ratio, slightly larger displacement, and they donít have major design differences that I am aware of. Even with a cam, header, intake, intake manifold, and exhaust upgrade, they still perform poorly compared to older D series engines. My best guess is that maybe the stock ECU is holding it back. Any ideas? Thanks.
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Old 01-04-2018   #2  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

Please define perform..

the best D16 engine only put out 130hp and that was only on modules that did not require a catalytic converter.
The stock D17A2 is at 127hp fully emissions loaded.

Granted newer cars have a lot more crash protection which adds weight, so that adds to performance issues.

What really is going on is the market for young adults to spend money for performance upgrades is shrinking at a very fast pace. Your right 8n that the potential market should be there for 10 companies to all be fighting for the best aftermarket intake and head design but the reality is the purchasing power is not there to support it.

Seems vast majority of young drivers care about mileage and how good the Bluetooth connection is more than going 1% faster..
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Old 01-04-2018   #3  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

Performance based on power-train alone or based on power-train + weight/curb weight? 5th & 6th gens are somewhat lighter comparatively.

All models of 5th, 6th, and 7th with possibly the exception of Si models are economy cars. 6th and more so 5th gens just look faster..LOL.

Civic design seemed to fully embrace the baby boomers and less so younger generations starting with the 7th gen up until the new design in 2017...which seems to be aimed at a younger market as well as the baby boomers that love their Honda's. Can't blame Honda for catering to the boomers because that's where the sure money is. This includes boomer purchases for their sons and daughters in high school and college.
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Old 01-04-2018   #4  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

Honda changed the civic concept in 2001, that's just it.

removed front double wishbone (this is the most impact item on these cars that was changed)
got bigger
got fatter

basically, changed the car to a cheap econobox. therefore, no need for high output engine. Marketing guys.
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Old 01-04-2018   #5  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

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Originally Posted by sdaidoji View Post
Honda changed the civic concept in 2001, that's just it.

removed front double wishbone (this is the most impact item on these cars that was changed)
got bigger
got fatter

basically, changed the car to a cheap econobox. therefore, no need for high output engine. Marketing guys.
Why did they get rid of the DWB front suspension and what was the effect? Did it have problems, or was it too real? I have a feeling it had to do with making the cars cheaper, but it's not like the price of the car dropped!
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Old 01-04-2018   #6  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

I never had a comparably modded D-equipped 6thgen keep up with me back in my younger, dumber, speed demon days.
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Old 01-04-2018   #7  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

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Why did they get rid of the DWB front suspension and what was the effect? Did it have problems, or was it too real? I have a feeling it had to do with making the cars cheaper, but it's not like the price of the car dropped!
many more parts than a strut MacPherson suspension, so more expensive

but i digress.

why are you mad?

Do you know why double wishbone is good? or are you just going with the flow?

Last edited by sdaidoji; 01-04-2018 at 09:53 PM.
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Old 01-04-2018   #8  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

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I never had a comparably modded D-equipped 6thgen keep up with me back in my younger, dumber, speed demon days.
but they lift the rear wheel so easily and turn so beautifully compared to our piggy squeee, squeeeee, squeeeeee understeer...
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Old 01-11-2018   #9  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

I personally think the gen 7 civics with the d17's would make a great spec racing class...

1) cars are inexpensive
2) d17 are reliable
3) nothing really adds hp to the d17 other than a turbo, super charger, or nos...so outlaw that stuff
4) cams are easy to pull for tech
5) with evenly matched hp setups, the racing would come down to the driver....
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Old 01-11-2018   #10  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

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I personally think the gen 7 civics with the d17's would make a great spec racing class...

2) d17 are reliable
Really? My experiences with them would suggest otherwise.
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Old 01-11-2018   #11  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

I've had no issues with mine...(besides losing a rod bearing due to 10lbs of boost...)or the one i built for a friend.
OEM gaskets, correct torque specs, and tolerances go a long way.
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Old 01-11-2018   #12  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

forgot to mention i had 265k miles on mine...
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Old 01-11-2018   #13  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

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4) cams are easy to pull for tech
lol!
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Old 01-12-2018   #14  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

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Originally Posted by sdaidoji View Post
lol!
Let me rephrase myself....
Access to the cams are easily accessible.

check the lobes of the cam by setting a dial indicator on the rockers. when the valve is closed zero it in. then turn over the engine.
If the cam lobes are appear to be illegal, then you take the cam out/heads off for a second check.

You can pull the heads off...without taking off the lower timing belt cover...
of course you need to have ARP head studs.
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Old 01-12-2018   #15  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

no need to explain yourself :P
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Old 01-12-2018   #16  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

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Originally Posted by piano55man View Post
Let me rephrase myself....
Access to the cams are easily accessible.

check the lobes of the cam by setting a dial indicator on the rockers. when the valve is closed zero it in. then turn over the engine.
If the cam lobes are appear to be illegal, then you take the cam out/heads off for a second check.

You can pull the heads off...without taking off the lower timing belt cover...
of course you need to have ARP head studs.
Is upgrading the cam illegal? I just installed a Crower Stage 1.
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Old 01-12-2018   #17  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

he was talking about making a spec class.
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Old 01-12-2018   #18  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

Pretty sure only spec class you could actually get started for the 7th gen would be a demolition derby..
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Old 01-12-2018   #19  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

lmao
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Old 01-12-2018   #20  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

lol, slumpert!
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Old 01-12-2018   #21  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

buy what standards poorer... more weight almost same hp and tq an performance..

by reliability , better if not the same.. i just clocked 320000 miles on original engine and tranny.. I got all records of all OEM parts lasted.. Still original tensioner TB, original water pump, original radioator, original tranny, .. besides the tranny loosing reverse, no other parts have given up.. Its all about how you maintane your vehicle.. this car could go another 100,000 k miles the way it is. not bad for a dx model and econo box..
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Old 01-13-2018   #22  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

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Originally Posted by dsm482 View Post
buy what standards poorer... more weight almost same hp and tq an performance..

by reliability , better if not the same.. i just clocked 320000 miles on original engine and tranny.. I got all records of all OEM parts lasted.. Still original tensioner TB, original water pump, original radioator, original tranny, .. besides the tranny loosing reverse, no other parts have given up.. Its all about how you maintane your vehicle.. this car could go another 100,000 k miles the way it is. not bad for a dx model and econo box..
You're asking for trouble going 320K on your original timing belt. I would change it ASAP. You are also running a big risk still using the original tensioner and water pump. From my experience, water pumps and tensioners on these engines fail suddenly and destroy them.
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Old 01-13-2018   #23  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

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You're asking for trouble going 320K on your original timing belt. I would change it ASAP. You are also running a big risk still using the original tensioner and water pump. From my experience, water pumps and tensioners on these engines fail suddenly and destroy them.
ur wrong , i change the timing belt only, .. at 90 k interval and use cheapo duralast 12.99 timing belt.. lasts 90k for sure, might not be gates..
timing tensioner i check it yearly, tension is good, its the original, and original water pump.. much better oem than any aftermarket ..
water pump even though driven by timing belt, it will leak past a bypass when it goes bad.. periodic checks will determine, or noise .... they never seize.. so guess what , 320k miles it runs like it did at 5k when i bought it.

i do like to experiment and see whats real lasting power is.... i use to work at [email protected] on vehicles, now i might not be honda EZONE knowledge... but i have some brainz..)...

i tested many oem parts on these car and aftermarket, kinda have a good idea when they broke....

i do follow maintenance intervals, the ones that matter, and here I am it still purss like a kitten..

i might keep it for winter vehicle,, i dont think i will get any $$ for it, but i need to buy soon another vehicle as a back up, since i sold my truck... u dont want to break ur only car driving me around)
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Old 01-13-2018   #24  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

ur wrong , i change the timing belt only, .. at 90 k interval and use cheapo duralast 12.99 timing belt.. lasts 90k for sure, might not be gates..
timing tensioner i check it yearly, tension is good, its the original, and original water pump.. much better oem than any aftermarket ..
water pump even though driven by timing belt, it will leak past a bypass when it goes bad.. periodic checks will determine, or noise .... they never seize.. so guess what , 320k miles it runs like it did at 5k when i bought it.

i do like to experiment and see whats real lasting power is.... i use to work at [email protected] on vehicles, now i might not be honda EZONE knowledge... but i have some brainz..)...

i tested many oem parts on these car and aftermarket, kinda have a good idea when they broke....

i do follow maintenance intervals, the ones that matter, and here I am it still purss like a kitten..

i might keep it for winter vehicle,, i dont think i will get any $$ for it, but i need to buy soon another vehicle as a back up, since i sold my truck... u dont want to break ur only car driving me around)[.

I dont recomend doing this to anybody, but i guess i take more risks
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Old 01-13-2018   #25  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

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Originally Posted by dsm482 View Post
ur wrong , i change the timing belt only
Well, to be fair your wording is wrong..let's review post #21:
"Still original tensioner TB, original water pump, original radioator, original tranny, .. besides the tranny loosing reverse, no other parts have given up."


You made no mention of timing belt replacement and you stated: no other parts have given up. A timing belt is a part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm482 View Post
at 90 k interval and use cheapo duralast 12.99 timing belt.. lasts 90k for sure, might not be gates..
Gates is not OEM. Duralast may be a Gates or other non-OEM because Duralast are just re-branded parts manufactured by other parts conglomerates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm482 View Post
timing tensioner i check it yearly, tension is good, its the original, and original water pump.
It's great to know these parts have lasted this long. However, most people feel that it's best to follow the service manual and no one can be faulted for that. I'd say your engine's good fortune is an anomaly and not the norm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm482 View Post
it will leak past a bypass when it goes bad
Usually but not always. A water-pump can also become weak and not perform as it should yet, may not leak or squeak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm482 View Post
i do like to experiment and see whats real lasting power is.
Doing so at the engine's risk but that's okay it's your car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm482 View Post
i tested many oem parts on these car and aftermarket, kinda have a good idea when they broke.
Foolish to think that whether OEM or aftermarket that parts will fail roughly within the same amount of time respectively. Again, that's why there is service manual recommendations to repalce parts at a designated time to avoid potential damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm482 View Post
i do follow maintenance intervals
Maybe?..but, seemingly not the ones listed in the Honda factory service manual for your vehicle.

You kind of come off as bragging about your maintenance prowress. It seems to me you should be bragging about how lucky you have been that your lack of service manual suggested maintenance has played out for you.

Last edited by Megalodong; 01-13-2018 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 01-13-2018   #26  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

^ He seem to know what he is doing, and possibly got stuck sometime and made it clear that he is an experimenter, so I would say he is good.
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Old 01-13-2018   #27  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

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Originally Posted by Megalodong View Post
Well, to be fair your wording is wrong..let's review:
"Still original tensioner TB, original water pump, original radioator, original tranny, .. besides the tranny loosing reverse, no other parts have given up."

You made no mention of timing belt replacement and you stated: no other parts have given up. A timing belt is a part.



Gates is not OEM. Duralast may be a Gates or other non-OEM because Duralast are just re-branded parts manufactured by other parts conglomerates.



It's great to know these parts have lasted this long. However, most people feel that it's best to follow the service manual and no one can be faulted for that. I'd say your engine's good fortune is an anomaly and not the norm.



Usually but not always. A water-pump can also become weak and not perform as it should yet, may not leak or squeak.



Doing so at the engine's risk but that's okay it's your car.



Foolish to think that whether OEM or aftermarket that parts will fail roughly within the same amount of time respectively. Again, that's why there is service manual recommendations to repalce parts at a designated time to avoid potential damage.



Maybe?..but, seemingly not the ones listed in the Honda factory service manual for your vehicle.

You kind of come off as bragging about your maintenance prowress. It seems to me you should be bragging about how lucky you have been that your lack of service manual suggested maintenance has played out for you.
I agree. I destroyed the engine in my 2004 Civic because the original water pump failed at 105K miles, causing the engine to overheat and blow up. I now need to change the engine. There was no warning when this happened. I also almost destroyed the engine in my 2005 Civic when the timing belt tensioner locked up and tore the belt off. Again, no warning before this happened. It was an OEM Honda tensioner with less than 60K miles on it. It also failed with no warning. I was lucky that no damage was done, but the timing belt being tore off of an interference engine at 70 MPH on the highway can certainly do major damage. Not saying that OEM parts are bad, just saying that someone who knowingly ignores the maintenance schedule to save $75 for a timing belt kit is taking a huge unnecessary risk.
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Old 01-13-2018   #28  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

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Originally Posted by dsm482 View Post
i do follow maintenance intervals, the ones that matter,
Are you implying that not changing the timing belt and water pump, especially on an interference engine doesn't matter? If so, you are very wrong, as I know first hand. If you are just doing it as an experiment, I get it, just making sure that you are aware of the risks you are taking.
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Old 01-13-2018   #29  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

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Originally Posted by sdaidoji View Post
^ He seem to know what he is doing, and possibly got stuck sometime and made it clear that he is an experimenter, so I would say he is good.
I owe him an apology as he did add to his previous post with this: "I dont recomend doing this to anybody, but i guess i take more risks"
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Old 01-13-2018   #30  
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Re: Why do D17ís perform so poorly?

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Originally Posted by D17VTECPOWER View Post
Are you implying that not changing the timing belt and water pump, especially on an interference engine doesn't matter? If so, you are very wrong, as I know first hand. If you are just doing it as an experiment, I get it, just making sure that you are aware of the risks you are taking.
he did change the belt, he did not change the tensioner

there are opinions that the water pump and tensioner do not really need replacing at the intervals noted, but since we are there anyway, why not?

though you had a pump go, so there are cases. but he took the risk knowingly he could get in trouble so.. just keep that part in mind.
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