Wankenstein

1995 Civic EX. Manual Transmission. B20B engine. Previous owner disconnected power steering but, didn't properly de-power rack.

Currently have power steering rack apart and correctly de-power by removing rack seal (metal ring with silicone seal). I removed the pinion gear, snap rings and all internals to clean and apply new grease. When I pulled the pinion gear out of the housing sub assembly small metal bearings fell out. It appears the inner race of this part# 40 in this diagram:
https://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuin...nts,2822076,40
has disintegrated and according to the linked page and my local Honda dealer the part is discontinued and no longer for sale. I thought about using a silicon o-ring but my cousin said it won't last long. Another thought is a bicycle hub race. Other than purchasing another rack I'm seeking another solution/suggestions.

Just a P.S. update: The bearing I believe is referred to as a drawn-cup needle roller bearing or and the dimensions are:
Inner (bore): 13 mm
Outer: 21 mm
Width (or Height): 12 mm

ezone

Collect up all the bearing pieces you can and take them to a bearing supply house, see if they can match something up.
I've gotten manual trans bearings, various pulley bearings, and a bearing to fix a seized air ratchet this way LOL


A true manual rack will probably have a different gear ratio and steer easier than a crippled power rack.

Wankenstein

Thanks...that's a good idea. May not be one in my town but within an hour's drive there might be. Can't seem to find the dimensions for a needle bearing online that's needed so, options for bearing is limited to your suggestion at this point.


If I can't get the bearing sorted out then I plan on purchasing this reman (lifetime warranty): https://detroitaxle.com/shop/steerin...FdgGgQods94EhA I called them and asked if they sell just the bearing but, they don't. I read a few threads on HT from people who purchased the manual rack from them and had good reviews.

I've read that there's a trade-off when comparing manual to de-powered racks. The de-powered has less steering wheel turns lock-to-lock. The manual rack is easier to steer as you stated.

My guess is since the previous owner didn't de-power the rack correctly when he removed the PS pump the PS fluid was replaced with air being pushed by the rack seal still intact. Combine this with the rack seal creating unwanted friction against the sleeve and caused stress to the pinion bearing(s).

ezone

Goggle any name and numbers on the bearing parts?
They had to come from somewhere, Honda didn't make it.

Wankenstein

Can't find any numbers.

On closer inspection it looks like the outer race casing is still pressed into the sub-housing part. I'm bringing it to a local machine shop to get an estimate on pulling or drilling out and possibly over-bored to fit in a more common sized case bearing.

Wankenstein

Machinist got the outer race out of sub-housing and size is stamped on outside of race: NK 13 x 21 x 12

For any one referencing this post
Millimeters: 13 x 21 x 12
Inch conversion: 0.580 x 0.824 x 0.470

Turns out this drawn-cup needle roller bearing size is also a Stihl (lawn equipment) crankcase bearing part #: 9513-003-3470. I couldn't find any Honda related part or through several bearing warehouses, Napa auto parts and other sources I called. I found some on Ebay that are NOS (new old stock) for $10. I was informed it's best to have the bearing machine pressed-in to avoid damage as they are easily damaged if installed incorrectly. I'm going to order the Stihl bearing listed above and will update this post in the near future. Installation instructions: http://www.jtekt-na.com/assets/ce/Do...ctBrochure.pdf

Wankenstein

Update.

Bearing arrived Saturday and I pressed it in Sunday by heating part in oven at 400 F for 45 minutes and chilling bearing in the freezer for an hour...pressed it in with a vice and 13mm deep socket. Seems to have worked well and no appearent damage. It seems to work very well but, will know more after road use. Also, put rack and pinion back together and sealed old PS compression fitting locations.

Installed steering rack today along with new inner & outer tie rods and boots on both sides. Aligned wheels as best as possible and got the coupler (pinion to steering column) and steering wheel in correct position. Down to the last two bolts on the coupler to the finish line and I stripped one of them during installation. My profanity tirade was fitting for the situation. I decided to stop there after putting in a long day of repair, getting up an down countless times, and sweating off about five pounds of water weight..lol

Should I pull the coupler, tap it to next size up?

ezone

Is there enough metal there to Helicoil it?

Wankenstein

Doesn't seem to be.
Probably will go to junkyard and pull one for $20 or less. Or I could drill it out and insert a larger diameter bolt with lock washer and nut.
I'm thinking now that during installation I should have left the bolts in very loosely instead of removing them completely. I did try that but had trouble sliding the coupler up and down so I removed them.

The old outer tie rods were still good but they didn't have a hole in the threaded stud for a cotter pin but, did have a zerks fitting (scary Ebay crap?). If I had to do a steering rack again (and hope I don't) next time it will go quicker.

Next project is the right side CV axle outer boot..it recently tore and is leaking. I have a used, good CV axle half shaft from a '98 Civic EX which I think (but, not sure) is the same as the '95 EX..If that's the case I may install that instead of just replacing the rubber boot. After that is repaired I should be done for a while..hopefully.

ezone

How bout a longer bolt, same diameter, with a nut

A larger diameter bolt might not clear the shaft.

Wankenstein

makes sense. Thank you.

Wankenstein

Ended up going to hardware store and selected a slightly over-sized, fully threaded 5/16"-18 x 1.25" length grade 8 bolt, lock washer and nut. I also selected slightly undersized, fully threaded 3/8"-16 x 1.25" length grade 8 bolt, lock washer, external star washer, and nut. The 5/16" wouldn't force-tap like I hoped it would so, I ended up using the 3/8". I know this isn't good practice and I intend to pull another coupler from local LKQ ($10) U-pick soon.

Before I went to the hardware store I found another bolt that was same size (8 mm) and slightly longer than the original. Noticing that the coupler. though stripped, still had several good threads beyond the stripped section. With the coupler off the splines that bolt went in smoothly and didn't strip so I tightened it down all the way to see if it would hold and it did. Without realizing it or forethought after tightening the bolt down it decreased the circumference of the coupler.

Ended up using a punch and hammer to get it to open enough so it would slide well on steering shaft splines. I mention this because it appears that the coupler is baring most of the load once it's tightened by bolt. So, even if the bolt were to break..it would take a lot of force to bend the coupler to a point where the coupler splines no longer connect to the steering shaft splines.

Wankenstein

Car is steering smoother and seems easier to make turns but needs an alignment. My guess is that replacing the shot inner tie rods probably accounts for the above mentioned improvement more than anything else.

Wankenstein

While my car's still down for repairs I figured it's a good time to follow this up. A couple weeks ago I took it to Firestone for lifetime alignment. I can post their alignment specs later this evening after work if need be.

Car still pulls to the right and the steering wheel is off center to the left at roughly 10 o'clock position. They said they do not adjust the steering coupler/steering wheel. If I keep the wheels straight while on jackstands, lift coupler, align the steering wheel straight, tighten coupler will this fix the right side pull?

As a side note the tension seems to be good on the rack now as there's no more clunking. The clunking I heard a day or two after I installed the rack and new tie rods subsided when I did full lock left and right donuts. I heard one big clunk when I turned left full lock and once again on right full lock..after that it's been very quiet with no clunking for the following week.
I think (my guesss) the final clunks I heard were the outer tie rods to knuckles breaking in.

ezone

Did you actually pay for the?
Post up the printout.


You need to see if your steering wheel is centered on the rack.
Turn steering wheel all the way to one side and note position.
Repeat to the other direction, note position.
Is it equal in both directions?

Example, all the way left results in top of steering wheel pointing at 2 o'clock....now
turn it all the way right and the wheel points at 10 o'clock...that would be equal and centered on the rack.

OTOH If you turn all the way left and it points at 4 o'clock, the other direction it points to 6 o'clock, that wheel is not centered on the rack.


Another clue is to look at the outer tie rod ends where they thread onto the tie rods........see if the tie rods have roughly equal amount of threads exposed.

Wankenstein

Yes

Alignment results..given by phone.
Front:
Camber: Left 0.6 Right 1.4
Caster: Left 0.3 Right: 0.8
Toe: Left 0.07 Right: 0.04

Rear:
Camber: Left -1.2 Right -2.0

Tech recommends front camber kit. Ideal camber would be 0.04 -0.06
Ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/92-95-Honda-...s/200929670942

ezone

Front camber desired spec is 0*
Caster 1*10"


Rear camber -0*20"

All have a tolerance of +/-1*, but cross difference generally should be less than a half degree.


The only thing easily adjusted is toe. Yea it looks like it's gonna pull right. Bushings/pivots and ball joints all tight?

If they had taken SAI/IA readings that might help to determine what's not in the right place.

Wankenstein

Thanks ezone. I haven't spent much time checking those out thoroughly. Firestone and Tires Plus (Bridgestone is parent company) techs will usually point those items out to customers if there is an issue. I plan to bring it Tires Plus soon for another alignment and will ask them to inspect for tightness.

Before I removed the rack the alignment seemed very good..had only a very slight pull to the right.

I will bring that up to TP when I take it there. Just read up on it: http://www.underhoodservice.com/chas...i-diagnostics/

ezone

JUST changing the rack shouldn't affect anything but toe, which would have no bearing on pull if total toe is correct.
IOW if it had a slight pull (drift) to one side before, that wouldn't change.

You sure you're dealing with a pull, or are you dealing with the steering wheel off center? HUGE difference between the two.


Todays alignment equipment is designed so any flunky can run it and usually obtain a reasonably decent outcome if they can follow the prompts on the screen. The flunky doesn't have to know a damn thing about suspension nor alignment, in principle nor practice. And when there's a problem, the flunky has no clue what to do next, throws hands up and walks away.
"You didn't check for bad suspension parts before you did the alignment?"
"Why? The ticket said to do an alignment."

Guess who then gets to deal with it in our shop......Hell, they even toss me into the middle of crap jobs on cars I know nothing about that the other shop can't fix. (multi-line dealership here)



If you put adjustable upper arms on it and straighten up the camber to zero on both sides, you might then have a pull to the left because of the caster. It shouldn't be much because it's about .5 degree difference and it can be used to compensate for road crown, but it may be noticed.
Unless the adjustments provide a way to move the upper joint fore/aft to change caster.

Wankenstein

One big problem is that I have probably have below-flunky-knowledge with alignment issues. In it's present state if I park with tires visually centered as straight as possible the steering wheel's vertical axis is at 1 and 7 o'clock and horizontal axis is at 4 and 10 o'clock. Ideally, if alignment is straight and true I assume a car's steering wheel vertical axis is 12 & 6 and horizontal axis 3 & 9.

Car parked and tires visually centered from my steering wheel's axis's (if that's a word?) as listed above it takes very close to 1.5 turns to full lock left and same for full lock left.

When I'm driving on a flat/level road travelling in a straight line I have to hold the steering wheel's vertical axis at roughly 10 o'clock position to remain in a straight line. Hope the descripton helps.

When I put the steering rack back in I tried to center the wheels and the steering wheel as best I could on jackstands when I aligned the coupler but I couldn't match the new outer tie rod number of turns/rotations during installation (I counted when removing old ones) to the previous number of turns without the tires and steering wheel being totally misaligned. So, I ended having around 6 turns on driver side and 18 on passenger side for the tires to look straight as possible and then centering the steering wheel.

The previous outer tie rod turns when I removed them were 8 on driver side and 10 or 11 on passenger side. I wasn't sure if the old, faulty inner tie rods had anything to do with the disparity?
I just assumed that if I explained everything (and I did) to the guys at Firestone that they would get it straightened out (no pun intended).

I kinda assume the same thing but I was trying to be nice. I took it to Firestone because it's closer to my house but, no experience with their techs. Tires Plus is closer to my prior home and the manager has been there since it opened six years ago. I've dealt with him many times and he's good about getting things right and seems to be very knowledgeable. So, I will bring it there soon.

The world would be a better place with an army of ezone clones to displace the "professional mechanics" with lesser skill and knowledge.

I hope that's the case but, before I purchase a camber kit I will get another alignment and front end inspection from TP.

ezone

A pull is when you are on a flat road traveling in a straight line, you let go of the steering wheel and the car immediately tries to kill you.....it heads for a ditch or oncoming traffic.
That's a pull.
A drift is just a little pull.
Pull can also be caused by things other than alignment.
Pull is dynamic, pull cannot occur if the car is not moving.

IF you let go of the wheel and it continues in a straight line, there is no pull.


Steering wheel off center is just that, it isn't at 12:00 [position when traveling in a straight line. The front end could be in perfect alignment, but if you installed the steering wheel upside down that did not change the suspension one bit. You stuck yours on at 10:00 or something, but does it pull?

You can have a combination of both pull and off center, but when trying to fix it, a pull is to be addressed first.


Your front tires could look like this and still go straight down the road..but is it wrong?


================================
You didn't ever check if the rack is centered? (see post #15 in this thread)
Start there.

When you put the rack back in, you can't go by sighting the tires. You have to start with centering the rack and steering wheel.



First, need to check if the steering knuckles have hard stops (travel limiters) or if the stops are inside the steering rack. (I expect it's in the rack, but I always have to check a car to make sure)
On a car where the knuckles have stops, you would need to disconnect the tie rod ends from the knuckles to be assured you obtain full travel of the steering rack.

If not, then continue.
Center the rack as described in post #15. (Don't give a crap where the tires point)
Undo column coupler and reinstall with steering wheel as close to center as you can get it.
Recheck full left/right positions to be sure that when the rack is centered your steering wheel is at 12 oclock or damn close to it.


Then you can worry about where the tires point and correct the toe (tie rod ends) adjustments. 6 threads on one side and 18 on the other usually indicates something ain't equal. .


You could adjust to get toes close to center. 6 threads on one side and 18 on the other tells me the last rack setup was probably off by the same amount, and new one still is too. Problem is, you don't really know how close to correct the rest of the suspension is (evidenced by camber being out of whack).


Again, in order:
Find the center of the steering rack.
Center the steering wheel on the rack

Adjust toe to match the steering wheel
(on the alignment rack, it's rear camber, rear toe, then front camber/caster corrections, and front toe is set last with steering wheel at 12:00, then test drive to make sure it's correct).


-------------------------------------------
I might be good, but I still catch a humble check now and then. Why, just the other day one of the guys in our shop found an oil leak caused by an oil filter that hadn't been fully tightened, and it looked like I was the last person to touch the car back in March.
Probably happened on a day when I had 10 things going on at once and nobody would leave me alone long enough to get a single one done. Again.


Too many shops would go out of business.

Wankenstein

It's pulling not drifting to the right

Okay

Lol.. They kinda looked a bit like that before FS alignment

Dark outside now and late so, will check tomorrow

I should have mentioned this earlier: Before I took the rack out I measured how far the rack bar stuck out on both sides from the ends of the black outer rack housing while steering wheel and alignment was centered. ex: driver's side was 5.5 cm and passenger side was 6 cm. I also counted the number of teeth (7) on rack bar that were exposed when centered. I put it back this way and then centered the steering wheel. I haven't adjusted it since other than the outer tie rods as I mentioned previously.

Pretty sure it's inside the rack but will check with tie rods discnnected. When I removed and installed the tie rods from/in the knuckles I put the key in first position and turned the side I was working on out as far as possible..seemed like the rack bar was at the end of travel.

Okay.

That's how I set it up but Firetsone most likely adjusted turned the outer tie rods. I will have to count threads as you mentioned. If I have almost equal 1.5 turns from center now lock to lock with the steering wheel just off center to the right wouldn't that be considered close?

Before I removed the rack I counted on the passenger side 10 or 11 outer tie rod turns. The driver's side was 8 or 9.. I wrote it down at the time.

Going to take advantage of my lifetime alignment and better relationship with manager at Tires Plus. I will give him the back story and also some of your suggestions. If they aren't willing to do more than minumum then I will tackle it. Right now I'm pretty burnt on messing with this car and I feel like it's hendering other things in my life. So, if I get help, besides all of the much appreciated time you've put into my car, from Tires Plus I'll gladly accept it.

ezone

How close is that, and is that with the rack centered? You said almost, so I assume that means not quite equal.....so how close is that?

The steering column coupler is on a splined shaft, you can set it within a spline width or just a couple degrees of dead nuts center....after the rack is set to center


If the knuckles don't have steering stops, you don't need to disconnect the tie rod ends.


Maybe I'm way too technical and have blinders on....

Wankenstein

The steering wheel position shown below as a reference it's top vertical axis (if split in quadrants) is 12 o'clock. The top vertical axis on mine is near or up to 1 0'clock position. My guess is that I'm off a spline or two from wheel being centered to the rack's centered position. That 1 o'clock position may even involve a bit of play in the wheel?

I set the steering wheel to pic below prior to removal. It and alignment seemed to be centered correctly: even number steering wheel turns lock to lock from center. I took my measurements with a tape measure as I described in the previous post before removing the rack. Upon installation I used those same measurements to center the rack and tightened the coupler to set the steering wheel as shown in pic below.

If stops on a Honda is similar to the one shown in pic below.. then no, it doesn't have steering stops.

I know you have to do a lot of reading between the lines with my posts and others posts. Sometimes it's hard to be accurate as needed through written description. I'm certainly guilty of it..though while initially writing or replying to any given post I feel like I'm trying to be as descriptive as possible. However, if I go back and re-read that same post at a future date I'll find that some of it didn't translate so well.

ezone

1:00, I'd agree with at least a spline off center if not more than one, and if there is truly free play then you can judge the center of the range of free play.


Then when you drive straight down the road the wheel still points about 10:00 position? If you're at 6 (L) and 18 (R) threads showing .......(if I'm doing this in my head right) something still seems screwy. Maybe I'm thinking about this backwards because I can't see it in front of me.



Ok, I didn't think it would but .......I've forgotten so much over the decades I sometimes remember that I can't trust my memory anymore LOL
Same here. Picture=1000 words and all that.

Wankenstein

Yes..or very near. This may sound silly but it's hard to find long, flat, uncrowned roads here to get an accurate gauge. I'll try it again on a flat parking lot a bit later today to reassess

If you're at 6 (L) and 18 (R) threads showing .......(if I'm doing this in my head right) something still seems screwy. Maybe I'm thinking about this backwards because I can't see it in front of me. 6 (L) and 18 (R)

Well, as said I initially set the number of turns at roughly: 6 (L) and 18 (R) However, Firestone most likely re-positioned the outer tie rods and thus the thread count/turns. I will also check and report on a bit later.

ezone

Eh, you know if it way off.

Wankenstein

Decided to post a video to hopefully get a better picture. Looks like R and L outer rod thread disparity is worse than I thought. At 10 second mark ..passenger side thread around is around 26. At 4:30 second mark driver side thread count is 8. Video also shows via steering wheel the left lock to center and right lock to center disparity.

I thought I videoed a test drive in the parking lot I was in but, not on me phone when I got home. Anyway, on that level surface and driving with hands off the wheel I have to downgrade pull to mild pull/drift. However, if driven on even a low pitch crown it noticeably becomes a pull. I did a slalom drive and steering is not as responsive as it should be which leads me to believe there's definitely play in the wheel.

ezone

full lock left, wheel points about 4:00 ish?
full lock right points about 6:00
wheel is not on center of the rack
So I think I you'd have the steering wheel pointing about 11:00 (split the difference of 4 and 6 oclock) when the rack is centered

If it were centered you'd have the wheel pointing about 5:00 left and and 7:00 right, (split the difference for 12:00 on center).


Next weirdness I see is the vastly uneven amount of threads showing on the tie rods....that passengers side with a whole bunch of threads exposed makes me wonder just how many threads are threaded IN the outer end. (If a tie rod has 2 inches of thread and you can see 1.5 inches exposed, factor in some more for the thickness of the jam nut....... Hope it's screwed more than 3 threads into the outer end, could be dangerous if it doesn't have enough threads to hold it (could strip threads out).


So I'm looking at these and thinking if you tried to make the threading roughly equal between the sides it would push the steering wheel even further left past the 10:00 position, probably would end with the wheel pointing more than a quarter turn off to the left when driving straight line.

That brings me to some questions:
Are the tie rods not of equal length? Equal amount of threading?
Do the outer tie rod ends match, equal lengths?

At 4 minutes you show both front tires...I don't see one sticking out an inch further than the other side, so I can't (yet) see why there would be an inch+ difference in the tie rod threading. But there's a lot of structure and suspension I can't see too. (I was trying to see if the camber really looks almost 2 degrees out, but probably can't see that in a video)


Hard to tell if you should spend energy making it better, or accept it as it is and drive the snot out of it.

Wankenstein

Four words: lifetime alignment, Tires Plus..lol.

The new inner and outer rods for both sides are the same size/lenth and I pretty sure (not 100%) thread counts when I matched them up prior to install.

I'm bringing it to TP tomorrow. They may not be willing to adjust coupler to pinion and steering shaft though. However I will point out the threads disparity to them and this "so I can't (yet) see why there would be an inch+ difference in the tie rod threading" and see what they can do. One of the techs there is an Acura/Honda guy that knows about de-powering racks, swapping pinions and engine swaps so, I'll see if he can get it sorted. I will ask him his opinion on the lean issue and which ECU or tune is best.

I will ask if they will let me get near the car when it's lifted so I can either film it or they can show me how they (or me) to straighten it out.