rekomstop209

It's been years but I'm back with a whole new set of problems...
99 civic ex D16y8 auto trans 134k miles

Literally just replaced dizzy cap and rotor, and igntion coil 2 weeks ago, cars been running great, getting 34.5 MPH until this happened....

Initially, on my way home from work last Saturday night, I felt what I thought may have been a transmission slip on the freeway doing about 60. It felt like the car just lost power for a half second and then resumed. I drove another 50 miles home without incident. I tried to recreate the problem driving 20 miles around town but could not. The only other thing that happened was the next morning, I went to run some errands, and it took like 10 turns to start, very weird. But every other time I started it that day it was fine. Took the car into work again today (73 mile commute).

Going up a small mountain pass at about 30 mph, I felt again what I thought was a transmission slip, the car just kinda lurched for a split second then resumed normal function. Had about 40 miles to get to work so I kept going. About 10 miles from work, traffic was really heavy and we were moving along at like 5-10 mph. I tried to just idle because it seemed like when I put my foot on the gas enough to drop shift it, sometimes it would just stumble for a half second before going. I can't be sure if what I experienced was a misfire or not because I've had dizzy/coil issues in the past, and this did not feel like the same lurching.

After a little bit, the car lurched multiple times, then died going about 10 mph, I threw it in neutral, it started right away, put it back into Drive, it went for a few seconds then died again. Back into neutral, this time it really struggled to start, but after pumping the gas peddle, it did, I was able to drive it over to the shoulder where it died again. Waited 20 minutes, started it again, it started right up. Let it run about 10 seconds, put it into drive and it sputtered and died almost instantly. I could not restart it after that.

Tow truck arrived 30 minutes later, car would still not start even with a portable jumper attached to the battery (the driver was checking to see if it was possibly the alternator). Got towed home about 90 minutes later. Car started right up, reversed down the truck, put into drive and drove it into my driveway, let the car idle for several minutes, eventually just turned it off myself.

So now the tow driver is saying maybe its the fuel pump. I let the car sit for an hour, checked simple things like the IAC valve, MAF sensor, made sure all the injector electrical harnesses were secured, everything looked good.

Started the car up again about 60 minutes later, instant start up. Let it run for 10 seconds then tried revving it up slowly in park to see if fuel would cut out. When I got to 5000 RPM, the engine sputtered and made some real nasty noises, belt was chirping, the engine bogged way down to a super rough idle and exhaust smoke started coming out of my air intake so I killed it. Now the car will not start at all.

Does this sound like a fuel pump? I'm going to pull it in a little while and do a voltage/continuity test as soon as I can find the specs. Will report back with the results.

rekomstop209

Alright so turns out I lent my voltage tester to a friend and cannot seem to get ahold of him...

I went and rented a pressure gauge, but...the threads on the adapter that screws into the fuel filter are all jacked and I cannot thread it at all...but I did they old "unsafe" test where you you loosen the fuel line and turn the key to on, well fuel sprayed out of the top of the filter like crazy, so now I don't think it's the fuel pump.

I'm noticing a pattern...I can start the car cold, but when it gets warm, it dies once the idle drops below 900, and usually will not start again for at least an hour. It's eerily like an ignition coil problem...but there is no CEL for misfires.

ezone

See if it still has spark while it won' t start. If no spark it could be a failing igniter problem (sounds like a good possibility right now), or any number of other things.

Also consider main relay problems are common, which CAN cause no spark if the ECM (or pcm) doesn't get powered up.
(Main relay has two separate relays inside it, one controls power to the fuel pump and the other controls power to part of the ECM and many other components on the engine)


There's also an issue on some of the distributors where some of the female spade terminals attached to the igniter become loose causing poor electrical contact (and possible fault codes, and spark cutout issues), The terminals can usually be squeezed to tighten up the rolled edges a little to restore good contact. I'm pretty sure I've found info about it and posted it somewhere in this forum before.


Not sure about noises chirping or smoke though. Possible related to loss of spark at high rpm?

rekomstop209

While I can't say for 100% without a voltage tester, I don't think the distributor is the culprit because I was just inside it 2 weeks ago, replaced the coil cap and rotor.
Also don't think its the main relay because the car continually starts when cold, and I can hear the fuel pump every time I turn the key to ON. Though I'm not sure if these can intermittently fail??? Logically I would think that once they go, they're toast.

I pulled the plugs (which only had like 10k miles on them), two of which looked absolutely terrible, and did a compression test. Came back all good! 191//190//181//204
But I replaced the plugs and it instantly started.
Held RPMS at 2500 for 5 minutes until it was hot, then started revving the **** out of her. She didn't die.
I find it really hard to believe that the spark plugs were the sole culprit, but I guess it's possible since there was never any CEL.

Nevertheless I won't be commuting the 73 miles to work until I am damn sure.

ezone

Just about anything can have intermittent problems.

You can't assume anything is really "good" until you solve the problem. Testing and proving almost certainly has to be completed while it won't run. Once it runs again on its own, the problem is gone----but not fixed.

If you can repeat your drives that got it to not start and it does just fine with only new spark plugs, that's a good thing. But what made the spark plugs bad?

rekomstop209

You know what you're exactly right. And the problem is not gone because I just went and tried to start it and had to turn it like 25 times. And then it died.
I found your guide on how to test the igniter and coil and I'm gonna start there. Problem is that sometimes it seems to start...sometimes not.

I went and bought a spark tester and checked each spark plug wire twice. I started the car and waited for it to get hot and die before I tested each wire.

All wires had spark that bridged a 30 KV gap both times except for #2 which bridged the 30 KV gap only one of the two times. It's possible the tester wasnt making good contact, but I can't be sure, thats why I tested it twice. I'm thinking it needs repeat tests to say for certain, but I no longer have a buddy to help me for the night. If it is an intermittently failing igniter, is it possible to do this test and see good spark in all the wires?

And about your question earlier about why the spark plugs went bad...awhile back I had some issues with the knock sensor and car was on LIMP mode for quite sometime. Could that have something to do with it?

ezone

Wait wait wait.
You proved the coil can throw a lightning bolt. Coil is good.
Your spark checks were done while the engine would not run, and it still had spark?
If true, problem is not in the distributor. Move on to something else.

Have you checked for fault codes even though you don't have a CEL?


What else have you observed when the engine stalls out?
Does the dash go dark, everything shut off just like someone turned the key off? No warning lights left on at all? (bad ignition switch contacts)
Can you see the dash warning lights flicker off and on several times as you sloooowly roll the key between on and start?

rekomstop209

Well even though I ran the car until it died and then performed the spark tests, the car fired up on 3 cylinders for each test. That' why I asked about the false positive with the igniter. When the car dies, the dash lights all light up, they DO NOT go out or flicker. And thats it, if I just let the car idle until it dies, it just simply cuts off like I turned the key off. But if I'm revving it a bunch, when I let off and the RPM's drop back down sometimes it will sputter a bit and then die.

I have checked for fault code multiple times, there are none.

I have a bluetooth OBDII scanner and I use the Torque Lite app. If you're familiar with this, is there something in particular I should have on the interface to monitor while the car runs and dies?

Colin42

pay the couple bucks for the full version, worth every penny and you will be able to see and do so much more.
you're shooting yourself in the foot if you only use the lite version

ezone

I read this as "the engine would run during test". Abort test session. Tests are invalid because the failure already disappeared.
Yeah it's frustrating, I'm well aware.
Start over.

Might be worth having or setting up an inline spark checker so you can see if spark stops before the engine comes to a halt. That means you have to set it up and then hover over it until it "Dies but is still spinning" and see if sparks still happen or not as the engine coasts from 800 rpm down to 0 rpm.

It's gotta be losing spark or has a fuel error when it dies. Once you figure out which of those is happening, you can track avenues that could cause the loss.

rekomstop209

Had to work long hours all week, no time to tinker on it until today. I was going to do this test, but instead, I pulled the fuel filter. Turns out it was a bit restricted, so I replaced it with a K&N filter and started the car, had it sitting there running for about 40 minutes without problems. Gonna go drive it around town in a little while and see what happens.
It's going to be 100 degrees today too so it will be a good stress test.

ezone

That's nothing because idling and no load running only requires a bare minimum of flow through the filter..

Go see how good it pulls when you hold the gas pedal flat on the floor til you hit 80+ several times.

rekomstop209

Did some driving through the city, lots of stop and go to simulate the freeway conditions I face, also floored it multiple times on the freeway up to 90, the car runs just like it was before it started having these stall out issues. Idle feels smoother too, less overall vibration. There was a moment at a stop light when I thought the car died but nope, it was just purring at about 650 RPM.

Seems the car was just in need of a tune up. Fuel filter and plugs were all I replaced. The real test will be tomorrow when I commute the 72 miles to work. If you don't hear back from me, everything went good.

Thanks for all your responses.

rekomstop209

Problem not solved.

The car made it about 8 miles on Monday and started sputtering. Was able to exit the freeway, turn around and go home...couple more "misfires" but it made it. It's been sitting in the driveway ever since. Worked 58 hours this week...so no time to mess with it.

At this point, I'm just gonna buy a new car today and sell that civic. It's probably the fuel pump failing...or ignitor...I'm not dumping anymore money into this car. It also needs shocks, has a torn axle boot, probably needs new ball joints, and has tiny oil leaks coming from the rear main seal and the crankshaft seal so I'm basically done with this demon lol.

I don't have all the proper tools or time to replace the seals so I think I'll just unload it for cheap, I know there's plenty of gearheads in my area that will buy it.

fgb000

Hi, Just change ignition switch harness.
Its behind the Key cylinder on the steering wheel.
the plastic switch connector is already dying.

bashea

I had this same problem with my '97 Civic DX. No CEL. No DTC. Turned out to be an oxygen sensor.