Cyborg Ninja

I've been having this issue for a couple months now. I am not a mechanic, but hope to do small repairs when I can. Sorry I'm longwinded, LOL.

I have a 1998 Honda Civic EX, 2-door coupe. The problem first happened when we were going to the zoo, about a 15-min drive on a hot day. The car stalled, and we could start it again and drive for a few feet, then it would stall again. Eventually the car had to be towed. After taking it to the mechanic, he said they got the car to work fine for two days and nothing was looked at.

I drive it home. My fiance drove it for a couple of months, but only short distances. Then we went to the zoo again. This time it stalled on the way back. I was driving it this time. It seems the engine totally died. I saw the RPM gauge drop to 0 suddenly and it became hard to steer. I guess power steering was lost. I was able to pull over safely but couldn't get it to start again at all. We towed the vehicle again.

We wondered if maybe I got dirt or water in the fuel, but I don't think we can check that on our own easily. We tried one of those fuel injector cleaners (dunno what they're called) for a few bucks, but that didn't work. I decided to change the fuel filter. But before doing that, I decided to try the car again and this time just go nearby late at night (I was really hungry). The car got there, but wouldn't start again after. I went the next day and was able to drive it home.

So this time we changed the fuel filter. It was plenty dirty, and I don't know if it was ever changed. I don't know much about cars, and nobody ever mentioned it. I wish I had changed it before, but who knows? So after changing it, it seemed to drive smoother, and we drove it nearby again. It got there ok, but now it won't start again. It's cranking, but won't turn over. The radio comes on fine... The battery is about 2 years old, not really old, and I wish I had something to check it with.

I dunno what's going on, and I hope you guys can help me. I'm happy we got the fuel filter out of the way, but I don't know what else to do. I'm thinking of replacing the fuel pump relay but that's $50 and I'm not sure how to do that. And I have no idea if that's it. I need help diagnosing this. I know that was all WALL OF TEXT-like, but I'm a firm believer that the more info you get, the more likely you can figure out the solution.

Oh I should add that when I can't get it to start, the battery light, the check engine light and oil light are all lit. The check engine light is always on, however, and has been for years due to a faulty O2 sensor. I think the battery and oil light are typically on when you first turn the key, right? The oil is only slightly low, and according to the mechanic shouldn't cause a problem. These lights also came on when the car stalled while driving. I called Honda about the ignition switch recall and they said my vehicle wasn't involved.

Currently I'm trying to read the error codes with a paperclip. My options are really poor because my fiance's truck doesn't work either and we're pretty poor. But hey, we're trying. Here's an image under the hood:



UPDATE:
Checked out the OBDI error codes with the paperclip method and all I got was the check engine light showing a bad O2 sensor.

ezone

3 of the most common problem areas, but certainly not all of the possible causes:

PGMFI Main Relay, it can kill the fuel pump OR kill the computer. Common malady is cracked solder joints, resoldering everything on the circuit board is almost free and darn effective.

Ignition switch, when the engine dies the lights in the cluster would be off and they may flicker as you slowly turn the key and you may be able to make it stall by slowly moving the key.

Ignition (spark) problem... Igniter going bad, coil going bad..bad connections on the igniter, ....?

While it won't start, you need to figure out if it has lost spark or lost fuel.

Cyborg Ninja

I agree with you -- this is either an ignition or fuel system problem. I'm ruling out the ignition switch for now because my car wasn't included in the recall and the switch seems solid to me. I looked up Honda's info on the ignition switch symptoms and it doesn't seem to be that. I'm not sure how to check the other things at this point. Can you help me out? Keep in mind I'm a disabled woman who only knows about computers and not cars. But I'm willing to learn.

How do I easily check out the main relay?

Wankenstein

Get someone to hookup jumper cables to it, start it (if possible) and drive to an auto parts store that will test your battery and alternator for free. Could very well be your alternator causing the issue. Follow Ezone's suggestions, review and use this: http://troubleshootmyvehicle.com/hon...rt-condition-1
This is cheap and handy: http://www.harborfreight.com/inline-...ker-69014.html

Replace your oil and filter every 3,000 miles and PCV valve every 3rd oil change: http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$%28KGrHqF,!qUFB,Dn+!HMBQjbRwJ0J!~~60_1.JPG it's located above oil filter. Autozone has them for 4 bucks.

ezone

Recall or no recall, the switches have long been a problem area. Even the switches that did get replaced under the recall still can and do fail again later on.
If, when it dies it still has active speedometer and idiot lights, it's probably not the switch. When the switch is the problem, it (the warning lights and gauges) acts exactly like the key was shut off as it dies.

I can tell you what I do in the shop, you'll have to decide if you can tackle the work yourself.
I use a wiring diagram and a test light to actually test under live operating conditions, or I plug in one of several repaired units I keep in my toolbox for testing purposes.

Jumping to repairing the relay without knowing if it is actually the problem:

Location, 98 Civic:



Video, repairing said relay (this guy is an instructor at a tech school and there is a lot of extra stuff)



Video on checking for spark issue
NOTE: in order for testing to be effective, the car must be effectively dead, will not start.
If the car can start and run, the problem will not be found.


HTH

Cyborg Ninja

Thanks for the help. When the vehicle stalled while driving, the tachometer plummeted to 0 but the speedometer, radio and warning lights still worked.

I want to try the main relay first because I have all I need to resolder it. I have some familiarity with electronics. The other tests are a bit beyond my knowledge, but I'll study what you've told me. I do need help getting to the main relay. Do I need to remove the glovebox? Can a car stall while driving if the main relay is the problem?

I'll do some more research on checking for spark.

ezone

When the stall event happens, if the tach drops to zero before the engine is able to stop turning, I'd think it's an igniter failing as it controls spark and the tach gets its signal directly from the igniter. Hard to describe this through typing though.

-----The main relay usually causes frustrating random no-start situations more often than "dies on the road while driving" complaints, but it does happen.

The glovebox can be removed (2 bolts fasten the hinges on the bottom, probably uses an 8mm socket) so you can see the main relay.

To expose the bolt that secures the relay, I'm not sure if the panel on the outer end of the dash can be pried out or if you have to remove the entire "cap" that wraps around the corner . I don't see cars this old every day and I can't remember.


HTH

Cyborg Ninja

Thank you for your help. I decided to take off the side panel to reach the main relay. I unbolted it with a 10mm socket wrench, but now I'm trying to get the connector detached from the main relay case. I found a tab and press down, but I can't get it to pull it even a bit. This is really hard. Do I need to disconnect a fuse or the negative battery terminal? I'm looking at http://techauto.awardspace.com/mainrelaydefine.html and it seems necessary for older models, but not sure about a 98.

ezone

It's a tight fit.

Push the tab in, then pull hard to separate the wire connector from the box.

Also, you gotta make sure the tab went in far enough to unlock or else you won't get it apart without damage.

Cyborg Ninja

I'm back. I never was able to get the main relay off, so I took it to a shop a week ago. They replaced the distributor cap and ignition coil. Seemed fine for about a week, then it stalled early one morning. It started back up again right after, then was fine for a couple days. Then it stalled again on a major road. I had to use my last AAA tow. So I brought it back to the shop, where this time they replaced the distributor. They seemed so sure that was the issue. Said there was no spark, at least no spark before (dunno about this time). I noticed when we started after the repair that the RPMs were all over the place, then it went down again. The mechanic said it needed to relearn. We drove it off the lot and it stalled again soon after.

My fiance was able to get it to eventually start again, but it seems he had to apply some gas to it by pressing down the throttle. I'm not totally sure. Thank God we were able to drive it back to the mechanic. They checked out the car again, noticed it was idling lower than normal. They did some things, hoping it was just relearning the idle procedure I guess. The mechanic drove it around a while, shut it off and started it back up, then came back. Said it seemed fine. I drove it nearby for a while and it seemed ok, but this time I wasn't risking going far with it.

I let it sit for a couple hours, then tried to start it again. It is not starting. It tries to start, but doesn't catch (I guess that's the terminology). Oh and I better add, there hasn't been any error codes except the O2 sensor like usual.

I'm really frustrated about this. We don't have a safe vehicle to drive between the two of us, as his truck has a big headgasket leak, broken e-brake, and you can't even shift it into park! We have to put a wood block behind the wheel to prevent it from rolling back! What a nightmare. I don't know what to do. I am disabled and he's the breadwinner for us, but not enough to pay for car fixes that don't fix the car.

Here's a video I made of the distributor cap and distributor. The distributor cap shown is new and was put in the car a week ago. The ignition coil is new too. I have these parts because the whole distributor was replaced today and they gave them back to me to hold onto.

ezone

Hi.
There's a good possibility whomever you took the car to is guessing, replacing the common stuff that *usually* causes a complaint like yours.

I have to wonder if your mechanic has actually experienced the car failing to start?
If not, most will not spend the quality time it takes to chase down an intermittent random occurrence complaint. Time is money, you know.
In other words, it's gotta be broke when they look at it. If it ain't broke, all they can do is guess.
On that same thought, some people can only guess at problems even when it is broke. We call em parts replacers.

Hang on to that original distributor and related parts, they may come in handy later on. I'd assume at this point, because your problem is not resolved, the original distributor could be OK.
The new one may be junk soon enough though, aftermarket reman distributors are big piles of crap.


This is a good clue, if this can be verified as accurate.
You say it won't start right now, what if you try "pressing down the throttle" while cranking it?

Can anyone check it for spark while it is not starting now?

Got video of it cranking?
Does the tach needle move up while cranking?
Does the tach needle normally move up while cranking? (can you tell if it's acting normal or not?)

Cyborg Ninja

Thanks Ezone for always being so helpful. I took the car to a local mechanic and they seemed really helpful. They tested it when it wasn't starting (they told me this), and saw that there was no spark at the time. I asked them a bit about how they know it was the distributor instead of other things like spark plugs or whatever, and they let me know they used a voltmeter. He went into some depth about it, so I feel confident in saying they actually tested things rather than just replacing parts without diagnosing. Whether they did enough testing is another thing... The new distributor put in is from Spectra Premium.

I tried the car this morning and here's a video of it. The needle doesn't normally move up while cranking. I notice it flutter at one point in the video when I was not cranking. Earlier in the video, I have the key in the position before cranking it, and noticed the oil and battery light on for a while. I don't remember that happening before.

I'll try throttling it while cranking some time. Does that flood the engine? My fiance confirmed that's what he did after we had stalled. I dunno if that's what made it start, honestly. Oh, and I checked out the oil a few months ago and it was a decent color, and only a tad low. I don't know anyone with a test light. Is it easy to use and cheap?

ezone

From 2:28 to the end is the start/stall, and I see the tach needle dropped like a rock at that moment it stalled.

At the point you twisted the key to crank it (2:32), I noticed the check engine light turn off for a split second as it started to crank, then it ran and stalled.

Also interesting is that after the stall and the engine had stopped, the tach jumped a little bit (your flutter?) before you tried to crank the engine again (2:36).

Not sure of the significance of those observations, but I would have them noted for reference as unusual and possible clues that may be worthy of investigation.

After it stalled, did you try pressing the gas pedal while cranking it?

There's no way I can diagnose anything from the Lazy Boy recliner I'm sitting in right now, but I'd still suspect an ignition related problem, not necessarily in the distributor---- actual testing would have to be involved to prove or disprove the guess.

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Distributor has 3 sensors CKP, CYP, and TDC. Signals from these sensors are fed to the computer, the computer figures out the ignition timing it wants, and sends a signal to the igniter unit (ICM) to fire the coil and make spark.

If I found a 'no spark' situation that does not have a clear cause, I'd probably use a labscope to inspect the signals from the distributor to the computer, and from the computer back to the distributor to try to find where the loss originates.

Of course if spark is still present even though the engine won't run, I'd go a completely different direction in diagnosis.




And don't forget there's a lot of wiring involved. Wiring issues make some people pull their hair out, and no amount of parts replacing can fix real wiring problems.


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So I guess first thing is to verify whether or not spark is present while it won't start.

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Note how long you ran it, build up a repeatable scenario that a mechanic can use to easily get it to act up/quit running consistently, since getting it to break is necessary to diagnose it.

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Oil (pressure) and battery (alternator charging) lights are supposed to stay on as long as the key is on and the engine is not running.

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A test light could be as simple as a light bulb with a couple wires attached to it.
A real basic 12v test light might be less than $5 at some parts stores, or DIY for almost nothing if you have the right voltage light bulbs and wire laying around.

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Know anyone with an identical car you can try swapping parts from?

Gregory105

I have determined the main relay is bad on my friends 99 Honda civic. So I went to Autozone and purchased a new relay. Plugged it in fuel pump came on waited for the clicks and nothing. So turned the it over cranks and no fire. Reinstalled old problem relay and car fired and ran fine. I opened the case to the newly purchased relay and there are no coils and it all seems to be solid state on the circuit board. The original relay that is the problem has the actual coil type switches/relays. I re-soldered an obvious bad connection at a cracked joint. Worked fine for a while now back to square one. Is there an install procedure for the solid state type relay that I am missing? Or is it just absolutely the wrong type relay? Does anyone have an idea where I can get the genuine coiled type relay? Part number would be awesome as I am not familiar with Hondas and my friend lives in Mexico. The car is at the Honda dealer and the guy she has been dealing with is not very intelligent. If someone could help me with this I would be very grateful.

ezone

I would have retouched every solder joint on the board.
How about 'defective new part', try again?

mac25

Double post.

mac25

If you do not know what you are doing it may be cheaper for your to take it to Honda, don't just go to any garage. If the rate is cheap they are probably just throwing parts at it and not taking the time to diagnose the issue. Cheap shops are cheap for a reason, and may end up costing you more.

if you really want to do it your self you are going to actually have to diagnose you primary ISSUE, not which parts it may be.

is it Ignition or Fuel?

first test for spark at the the plugs (even if you have spark here you may still have an ignition problem)

then if that tests well rent a fuel pressure test kit

you may need to drive the car and place the gauge outside of the engine bay where you can see it (remove hood, tape gauge by windshield).

You will need to watch the fuel pressure gauge while the issue happens. If pressure drops you know it is a fuel issue.

If not then you know fuel is not your issue and that there is an ignition problem.

After you have found your main ISSUE then start testing the parts of that system, not replacing them because you think they are bad, test them.

Buy a Haynes manual, it will show you every part to test and every wiring diagram.

Good Luck

emich

Get your old relay wire brush the back of the board and resolder ALL the joints adding extra tin. This is very common problem on Accord 91-93

emich

Did you fix it? Check out the compression. You may have a bent exhaust valve.

Mia Mia

Starter motor. Happened to me. Everything, lights, racio etc all on but even though battery was fine (even had a police officer with a safe jump starter kit try to help me), it just wouldn't start. After towing home it started fine next day. Apparently it is easier to diagnose when the starter motor doesn't kick over, which i guess was lucky because after driving it fine to the mechanics I turned it off while waiting, tried to start it and it wouldn't start. Australia $300 for second hand installed, $400 new. Got new one and starts everytime. Good luck

Colin42

Ouch those are painful prices, used starters are like $30-$50 where i am. Starter motor won't cause a car to stall out when it's running.