jptra

I'm having an issue with my 2007 Civic Si whereby it will no longer crank/turn over. With the onset of cold weather some weeks ago, I had noticed my car dragging when cranking. It would turn over, but slower than normal, and sounded like it was struggling. The battery was a couple years old and was showing some signs of corrosion, so I figured it was time for a new one anyhow. I bought one, but never got around to putting it in yet.

The other morning, I went to crank the car, and the engine once again dragged when cranked. It did start, and seemed to be running fine for like 2 seconds, when it suddenly just shut off altogether. I thought it was odd, but tried to crank it again immediately, and it turned over a few times (fairly normal speed), but would not crank. Then the battery seemed quite weak and it would hardly turn over at all anymore. When I got out, I thought I smelled an electrical burning type smell, but I didn't see any smoke. I put the battery on the charger, and let it charge all day while I took my spare car. Came back that evening with the battery showing fully charged, and the car would barely turn over at all.

I was getting worried now, but since I had a new battery, I figured I'd put that in and see. I did so-same thing. The battery was fully charged, terminals clean, etc. I checked the voltage (at the battery) with my meter and it read 12.6 or 12.8, as I recall. Monitored this while trying to crank, and the voltage dropped to 11.8 or so. I put my little code reader on there, and it was able to connect to the ECU and communicate (no error codes stored), so at least that wasn't totally fried.

So I'm thinking now that probably my starter/solenoid is bad, but a couple things there that I would question about that diagnosis:

1) Can a starter kill an engine already running perfectly fine? My first guess is no, but not being particularly knowledgeable on this, I thought I'd ask if any of you all have ever seen that?

2) After the engine died, the car did initially turn over when I tried to crank it, but didn't seem to have any fire (or fuel)- i say that just based on the sound of the engine only (i.e.- it never sounded like it was close to firing). Eventually it would barely turn over at all.

3) The smell- can starters/solenoids have a smell like that? I would guess so due to the electrical components, but I've never experienced it before.

I'm hoping to be able to dig into this more this weekend, but I have some travel over the next few days. What do you guys think- starter/solenoid, or do you have other likely possible culprits?

If it turns out the starter is bad, can anyone point me to a definitive DIY on the easiest way to replace the starter?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts/suggestions!
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GolNat

iTrader: (7)

Since your battery terminals were corroded did you check other electrical connections? Connection to starter, alternator? Check all chassis grounds! If those have poor connection the car can act funny.

jptra

Haven't had a chance to dig in yet, but will do so this weekend. I don't expect to find major issues there, but I could be wrong. I'm finding it strange that the car initially started fine, but died so abruptly. I'm thinking something in the starter went bad/burned up (based on the slower cranking both before and after it went totally kaput), but I don't really understand how that could make the car shut down when running, unless the solenoid were shorted/partially shorted. Could also be the alternator? I've heard that trying to charge a very discharged battery with an alternator can damage it. The old battery wasn't in great shape, and I do recall leaving the trunk open overnight, so the trunk light would have discharged the battery some. However, it had enough juice to crank the car on its own, so I wouldn't think that would have caused an issue with the alternator.

I'll check all the connections, and try to see if there's a way to test the starter & alternator for shorts easily on a car that won't run.

ezone

Might well be a bad starter, but consider that a locked up pulley can cause the engine to completely stop (won't run) and make it seem like the starter failed too (won't even crank).

jptra

Thx Ezone, yes, I thought of that, and will be checking it out to make sure I can turn the crankshaft reasonably easy. I'm thinking that it's unlikely it's something mechanical like that, due to the way it was running perfectly, but then just immediately stopped without any sound or anything. There was also the electrical burning smell, so my first guess would be the starter or alternator. Neither of those completely fit to me though- I wouldn't expect the starter to kill a running engine, and I wouldn't expect the alternator to keep the car from turning over with a fully charged battery (unless the alternator pulley were completely seized).

Will check into and let you know what I find, but in the meanwhile, if anyone has firsthand insights/experience on my questions, it would be much appreciated!

jptra

Ok, I had some time to check into this a bit, so i checked the fuses & wiring as best I could, and all seems normal there to me. I wanted to check the voltage at the starter terminals, but this is tough to access, and I didn't get to complete this test yet. However, I removed the radiator support bar, and have clean access now to the starter. I'll see if I can check the voltage at the terminals tomorrow to verify for sure whether it's the starter or not. However, after checking the other electrical connections, I did try to crank it, and it did start up and run fine, although it was very sluggish turning over. I also smelled that electrical burning smell again. However, the car did start and run repeatedly, without issues once running, so this made me feel good. I did also check the battery terminal voltage when it was running, and I was happy with the voltage reading (I think 14.6 or so, as I recall). From all this, I'm feeling pretty certain the starter is the problem, although I still want to verify the voltage at the starter terminals, and also that the crankshaft turns freely. I'll try to do this tomorrow.

Although I haven't tried to remove the starter yet, I have removed the radiator suppor bar (the only difiicult part being the stupid plastic connectors securing the electrical cabling to the support bar), and the right hand side fan (only 2 bolts and an electical plug), and I think from there removing the starter should be a snap. I did try to remove the electrical connector from the knock sensor, which immediately broke the knock sensor as it pulled right out of the socket. I'll try to repair it, but it looks dubious. Definitely need a deep well 24 mm socket to tighten it back in, or perhaps a box-end/open-end wrench would work (will find this out tomorrow).

Based on what I've seen so far, I'm convinced this was definitely a starter issue- interesting to note this can kill a running engine. Will confirm over the next few days, as I replace/put everything back together.

ezone

Engine still runs?
Needs a starter.
If knock sensor broke just unplugging it, maybe it was previously broken during a careless starter replacement in the past. (you may discover it's not an OE starter once you get it out)
Aftermarkets are a crapshoot, and if you have an aftermarket starter already and want one from Honda they won't accept that as a core.

jptra

Thx Ezone! Yes, engine runs good once started, was just very slow to start. With the radiator support bar out of the way, was easy for me to check the connections on the starter. Read the same voltage at the starter positive terminal to ground as at the battery. Voltage drop from battery positive terminal to starter terminal was 0V, so all checked out there. Since I had access now, I tapped the starter casing a few times, then decided to try and crank. I kept an eye on the voltage at the starter terminal while cranking. The car turned over normally and started and ran great. The voltage on the meter did seem to drop temporarily while cranking, but I would assume that's normal. Repeated this a few times, and the engine never dragged on crank. I assume the old solenoid tap did the trick.

At this point, I'm not sure if I should go ahead and replace the starter, or let it go and see how long it lasts. As much as I've been hearing about problems with aftermarket starters, I'm inclined to take my chances for a while and see how long this one lasts, especially considering the price of the starter in general (and OEM in particular!). I'm fairly sure it's the original starter. It's not too big of a deal to remove the radiator support bar in the future to change the starter if I need to, and in fact, while in there, I noticed I had a small radiator leak anyway, so this is going to need to be replaced soon. What do you guys recommend- take my chances with the old one, or go ahead and replace now? I notice a lot of the replacement starters, including AC Delco now have an external solenoid attached to the starter, instead of integrated in. I assume there's still room for these units since they're billed as replacements, but does anyone have experience so far as longevity goes? I notice they claim it's an "upgraded" design.

Now, for the knock sensor, I'm pretty sure it's toast, even though I tried to repair it. When I pulled on the electrical plug to disconnect it the plastic part just completely disconnected from the metal body, and I didn't really see any way to reconnect the two internal wires due to the way it was constructed. I went ahead and put it back together and siliconed it up so it wouldn't pull apart again, but I'm sure the internal connections are quite iffy. I see a cheap aftermarket for like $15 at RockAuto- other than that they seem to go for $60-90. Anyone try the $15 Ultra-Power? So far, I've only cranked the car with the knock sensor disconnected, but I haven't had any check engine lights come on yet. I tried to check for error codes using Torque Pro light and Scanmaster, but both gave me no codes, and I didn't see a way to monitor this directly? If anyone can tell me how to do this, it'd be great.

I think we've got this issue diagnosed, if not completely resolved yet. Thanks for the help!

ezone

REPLACE IT NOW BEFORE YOU GET STRANDED BY IT

Tow truck fee isn't cheap.

jptra

Ok, starter off- I think I'll see if I can find a shop to repair/rebuild, since I have the time before I need the car. I'll also go ahead and take it to be tested at the auto parts stored since I have it off, even if I'm not convinced how reliable those tests are.

ezone

You beat on it and now it works. For a short while.
The parts store isn't likely to find it bad as long as it works.

jptra

Yep, this was my thinking too, so I'm going to have it rebuilt regardless, if I can find a shop. Anybody know what the torque specs are for the knock sensor?

Cjcaptain

01 to 11 haynes manual

jptra

Thx Captain! This would indicate 16 ft-lbs for my '07 Civic Si. I've read conflicting specs elsewhere stating either 15 ft-lbs (close enough!) or 23 ft-lbs, which is also indicated in your Haynes excerpt, except not for my model. Seems to be a lot of confusion out there, so I presume people must be mixing models when they give their specs.

Thx again!

jptra

Took the starter to a rebuild shop this afternoon, and they turned it around for me in less than an hour. Said the positive brushes were completely worn down (the car has ~225k miles), so he replaced the brushes. Total cost $60. Put it back in this evening, and started the car a few times with no problems. I'm still waiting on the knock sensor before I button it all back up.

I also noticed a slight radiator leak while I was in there, so will probably go ahead and replace that while I have the radiator support brace off. By the way, I replaced the starter completely from the top, without even jacking the car.